Could someone PLEASE start a program to run J 611. I can't stand the fact that it's fading away in a museum. YOU, I MEAN YOU, HAVE TO HELP. If you can't, tell someone who can.
J 611 is currently store at the VMT in Roanoke, VA.
Cars for an excursion can be found at http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/
PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!
Help with what?
611 was put out to pasture because the NS was no longer interested in running her. At the same time they sold all the specialized spare parts needed to maintain her - for scrap. In the years since, I don't doubt that they've long since been converted to saw blades and mattress springs.
Then there's the minor detail of having a place to run a stiff, long-wheelbase locomotive. Since the demise of steam there have been subtle changes in track geometry that make it better for diesels and not as good for steam. Granted that track utilization is down for the moment, but it will probably pick back up to a level that finding a gap in a busy schedule may get to be an adventure.
How about people to rebuild and maintain her? Those with the necessary skills are mostly punching the timeclock in God's Big Backshop. The few still on earth are all plenty busy working on locos that are still in steam or being prepped for use by certain dates on operating railroads.
Last, but hardly least, Ton$ and ton$ of $$$$!! And very little possibility of EVER making enough to repay the base cost - or even cover ordinary operating expenses. Since the Obama High Speed Rail plan doesn't include locomotives that can only cruise at 90mph...
Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE to see 611 back in operation. I would also like a (fill in most improbable dream here.)
Chuck
thats too much doom and gloom perception. As far as rigid wheelbase goes it has plenty of equilization for uneven track. Unlike our model counterparts with stiff unflexing wheelbases.
And for specialized parts, its always reproduceable, and for money, start passing the hats around, ready to make some donations?
I would do it myself, but I'm still in school without a job.
Is that 1218 below your name?
Check this out!
http://www.pbase.com/garymullis/image/119538376
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Wow Jim thats pretty cool! Mr Link would love that shot I am guessing Gary Mullis is a fan of his work?
As for friends of the 611. It would be tough but not impossible.I dont get the track geometry deal. If that were the case no steam would run. Plus most of the tracks I have run on have never been changed I think that might ahve been a piece railroads used to keep steam specials off their lines.
Friends of the 261 are looking for a loco now, but I dont know if 611 would fit the bill or if they were even interested in it.Might be a dream for you but never say never I guess.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
I think the point about the geometry is that most of the elevation has been taken out of the curves.
Glad to see so much enthusiasum" href="BLOCKED SCRIPTinsertSmiley('');">
NSdreamerI would do it myself, but I'm still in school without a job. Is that 1218 below your name?
I never identified that engine, its a Y6b I think.611 and 1218 are virtually one of a kind engines, the fact NS brought them back to steam is a feat by itself, if it can be done once, it can be done again.
611 stayed in steam as long as it did chiefly because it had been overhauled/rebuilt following a trip down an embankment late in its active career.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
One might also recall the difficulties J611 had when it was in excursion service. One of the reasons the J was capable of high speed was that the lead and trailing trucks were very tightly sprung (sprung against the trucks swinging right or left). This rigidity helped hold the locomotive stable at speed, but increased the minimum radius that it would take. During at least one of the excursions, the J derailed (or caused track damage) at a "Y" where the intent was to turn her. With the removal of most all turntables and the re-laying of wye tracks to suit diesel needs, the routes where one can effectively run a locomotive such as the J are much more limited than they were.
I was a member of the Virginia Museum of Transportation for 30 years... from when it was down in Wasena Park until I moved from the area three years ago. All state funding to the museum dried up years ago and they have really struggled financially. NS does not provide the support to the museum that it used to. They have multiple outdoor exhibits that are suffering as a result, and many projects that have stalled. This is not unusual as the prominence and visibility of railroads in the US has declined. When I was growing up, virtually everyone had some relative that worked for the railroad, but now....
My membership money wasn't enough to recondition a large steam locomotive, nor was the combined membership of the musuem. While things indeed CAN be done, it would seem unlikely unless some multi-millionaire decides to drop a couple million $ on such a project with virtually no hope of seeing a financial return for the investment. Fortunately, there are multiple videos of the J in action so one can crank up the audio and enjoy. My favorite individual scene of the J in action is one where it comes to a complete stall on a grade and then starts again in the video Steep Steel & Slipping Stalling Steam! (Vol. 1) from Main Line Motion Pictures.
Bill
Because of the expense involved, I would think that the operation of mainline steam excursions is gradually coming to an end. I keep reading of more steam locomotives of a variety of sizes being taken out of service because the money isn't there to maintain them properly. Also, the mechanical skills to properly maintain a steam locomotive are also vanishing. Lack of money and lack of trained personnel are the problem, I'm not sure that there IS an answer.
I agree, lack of money is probably the biggest issue. There is currently a funding drive to restore the PRR 460 located at the museum in Strasburg PA, this will cost aproximately 255K. To get a locomotive back to a running status another problem is the manufacturing of parts. To forge the necessary parts many company's refuse because their expense in altering machinery, etc., just to make one or two parts is not economically sound for them. If they do agree to make the part this cost obviously is added to the project and now more cost escalation. The group in Owosso, MI had this problem when the 1225 needed new thermal syphons, eventually they found a provider but from what I was told it was not an easy task. Sad to say but I think a day will come when we will enjoy most steam locomotives in a cosmetic restoration and on static display.
There are so many issues facing anyone looking to rebuild and run a steam locomotive... tooling and parts are non-existant, everything basically has to be scratch-built.
Once a loco is up and running, there is almost nowhere to run it as most major roads won't allow steam excursions to use their rails as the liability has become too expensive to insure.
AND from the date a loco is finished it has 1600 operating days before it must be torn down and re-built all over again.
The rebuild takes years... evident in the NKP 765. Rebuilt in the early 1980's, it ran excursion service until 1993 when it's certificate ran out and a re-build was necessary. The shopping (that in the hay-day of steam) would have taken a matter of weeks) was completed in 2007. The locomotive is in "like new" condition, but it took 15 years and about a million dollars.
And the Friends of 765 can't find many places to run her... which will make the next rebuild that much more challenging.
Milwaukee Road 261 has just met this fate.
Steamtown's CP 2317 is due a rebuild, and it is unsure how long it will be before she is again servicable.
Sometimes, during a rebuild, a la PRR 1361 it is found that the original build specs aren't up to current standards and that the entire bioler and crown sheet aren't thick enough and must be reinforced, basically halting the progress.
It all got very difficult after the crown sheet failure and subsequent boiler explosion of fmr CP 1278 on the Gettysburg Scenic Railway in the mid 90's. Railroads stopped seeing only "cute old time PR pieces" and began seeing time-bombs. Federal Regulations got more strict, and many at the time working locomotives have since become static displays.
One of the most interesting steam operations out there was Jerry Jacobson's Ohio Central steam dept. Despite stopping daily tourist trips the OC maintained several locomotives, including 4-8-4 GT 6325, 4-6-2 CP 1293, 2-8-0 #33 (that has passed through so many roads it's hard to tell where it began), and 4-6-0 #1551. At one point all were operational, and were occasionally used in freight duty on the Ohio Central a regional railroad network.
The OC had also purchased Nickel Plate Road 763 for rebuild and return to service, however the sale of the Ohio Central to the Gennessee and Western has halted all operations.
Rumor is that Jacobson is building a private roundhouse facility to house the locomotives...
We shall see.
MAY I PLEASE HEAR SOME GOOD NEWS
in_edenRumor is that Jacobson is building a private roundhouse facility to house the locomotives...
He is infact building a roundhouse and rail interpretation museum on the western outskirts of Sugarcreek OH. You can keep up with all his progress at www.ageofsteamroundhouse.com. He has his diesel collection at the site but the steam locomotives, with the exception of the 763, is not. Minor work has started on the unit.
The good news, some of his steam locomotives will still be used ocassionally for some freight hauls.
That is impressive! I was really worried when the OC Steam dept. website went down... and then 1293 did not make it's now annual runs on the Cuyahoga Valley and Byesville Scenic railways this summer... I feared the worst!
I had heard rumblings that the roundhouse was under construction, but you know how these things go... they lose funding and it never happens. Gotta love that Jacobson... I mean I'm building something very similar, but in N scale! Must be nice to work in 1:1 gauge!
Looks like he's building a "steamtown" type place. Great idea. The Dennison Railway Museum is largely his collection anyway... he can set up a very nice display.
Maybe return the collection to their original liveries?
Does he own the E units that were painted as PRR with a OC in stead of PRR?
Anyway, it's a stellar collection, and it's nice to see that it will continue to be taken care of as well as displayed!
Thanks for the info!
I too am jealous of his 1:1 guage, my HO layout in my basement is the best I'll ever get. As to his F9 units they were sold to a Canadian concern a few years ago along with some passenger equipment. Knowing Mr. Jacobson and how he does things this museum is going to be top notch.
I once had the pleasure of spending a chilling cold January weekend with his 6325, it was great and first class all the way. Be sure to sign up for his updates, the info for that is on his webpage.
The real problem with restoring steam is that different groups try to do it more or less in isolation so their efforts are scattered all over the country and proceed independently. The answer might be to establish a central rehabilitation facility somewhere were the mechanical talent, necessary machine tools, foundary and boilermaking facilities, overhead cranes, drop pits and other needful things can be assembled in one place. Candidates for restoration or overhaul can be brought there and processed on an assembly line basis thus securing economies of scale. The financial resources of the several independent projects could be pooled for greater effect. Finally, this central facility could have an extensive running track under its own control to operate the locomotives for rail fans. I know, I know! Whatta pipe dream! But still.....such a facility would solve a lot of problems connected with preserving operating steam. My "prototype" on a small scale is the Strasburg's operation and the Ohio Central has a fine running track between Sugar Creek and Columbus. A properly funded Steamtown might also be a possibility.
JimValleThe answer might be to establish a central rehabilitation facility somewhere were the mechanical talent, necessary machine tools, foundary and boilermaking facilities, overhead cranes, drop pits and other needful things can be assembled in one place. Candidates for restoration or overhaul can be brought there and processed on an assembly line basis thus securing economies of scale. The financial resources of the several independent projects could be pooled for greater effect. Finally, this central facility could have an extensive running track under its own control to operate the locomotives for rail fans.
Such a place already exists, only it's in Meiningen, Germany. It's equipped to do anything on a steam locomotive, including building new which they just did for the meter gauge"Mollibahn" on the Baltic coast near Rostock. I was there during their open house in September of 2006 and is that a show! Running tracks, pits, turntables, foundry, machine shops and boiler rolling facilities, you name it. Type 01 Pacifics cruising around the yard tracks giving cab rides for anyone that asked. What a day! They built the boiler for the A1 Pacific "Tornado" now running in Britain and being in Germany, you could walk anywhere in the place with a glass of beer in your hand! Try doing that in Canada or the U.S. I wish we had a place like that on this side of the Atlantic.
NSdreamer MAY I PLEASE HEAR SOME GOOD NEWS
Canadian Pacific's steam program is due to be back after a one year hiatus last year! Look for 2816 criss-crossing CP territory this summer.
You may get your wish. Since 261 has apparently been sold, Friends of the 261 are said to be talking to VMT and NS about returning 611 to the high iron. Stay tuned.
GTW4070 You may get your wish. Since 261 has apparently been sold, Friends of the 261 are said to be talking to VMT and NS about returning 611 to the high iron. Stay tuned.
"WHAT?" The Friends of the 261 sent out their latest newsletter detailing what is going on. The article from Steve Sandberg stated that IF they decide to rebuild another steam locomotive, they would go with one that has midwestern roots, specifically eliminating such locos as the Frisco 1522 along with the N&W 611 and 1218 (yeah, he mentioned them by name). They would focus on something from the likes of the Burlington, the Milwaukee Road or the New York Central.
Now for this coming year, there's a chance that there might be a leased steam engine pulling trips--but I don't think that the Sandbergs are going to coming riding to the rescue of the 611--this year or next year.
Either that or the info they send out to the paying members of Friends of the 261 is some elaborate smoke screen designed to prevent someone else coming in and driving up the price of the 611 in some crazy bidding war between multi-millionaire, deep-pocket steam locomotive restorers/operators.
Can I stop laughing now?
Sorry for the lack of good news, but sometimes the truth is all you get.
Lance
I may be the black sheep on this subject but I do believe we will see not only the 611 but also the 1218 come back to life one day.The Government gives cities all kinds of money every year so the city can give grants to the community to do all kinds of stupid projects.Sometimes you have to write to get a grant sometimes they just pick your organiation.I have heard many times cities giving money to railroad museums to restore steam locomotives so they can have a living,breathing,piece of history for the children to see.This is espically true in smaller cities where tourism is the towns main source of income.The Mount rainier railroad recieved a grant from the city to restore a Shay locomotive last year and I am not even sure they asked for it.
As someone who has worked for three different companies building and re-building passenger cars and locomotives I can tell you that many of these musuems make many bad descisions when it comes to overhauling steam locomotives.They turn to specialist and special companies that charge them ten times what it should cost.Sand blasting,Welding,Painting,etc can all be done by using local people and local business.Instead of paying Joe blows steam locomotive repair shop $80,000 for boiler tubes why not crack open the phone book and buy them from a steel distrubutor for $8,000.You can hire a certified welder to check for cracks etc.In short I think between getting a grant and using some common sense you could keep cost to a minium.Considering the 611 has all the parts there you would already be well over the hump for a restoration.Lets not forget what (I believe Ross rowland) did for the Reading (2102 or 2101 I don't remember) back in the 1970.He restored a dead engine (a huge 4-8-4) in less than a month.
As far as track problems.A lot of nonsense.Track and switches have come a long way.It is far superior to what it was even 20 years ago.Railroads have spent billions upgrading track to accomodate faster trains with smoother rails.
If the 611 does run again it will probably not be because of railfans.If I had to bet on anything then I would bet it would be the state of Virginia or one of her cities wanting to restore it as a celebration of some sort with a train going town to town.The 611 is a wonderful example of Art deco and would make a good ambassador for the state of Virgina as a public relations tool.
Don't tell me, tell them
JimValleThe answer might be to establish a central rehabilitation facility somewhere were the mechanical talent, necessary machine tools, foundary and boilermaking facilities, overhead cranes, drop pits and other needful things can be assembled in one place.
To some extent, that is already the case. For many important steam locomotive rebuild steps, there are only one, or two, or three places to do it. Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum (TN), Nevada Northern (NV), Steam Railroading Institute (MI), and maybe Steamtown (PA) fall into the category of places that have unique or nearly unique steam locomotive capabilities.
But those are only part of the answer. If the government, or the Class I's, were rebuilding steam locomotives regularly, that would be the answer. But most current rebuilds depend substantially on local (or at least relatively local) volunteers to do a lot of the grunt work. That's the way you can do it for, say, $400,000, instead of $1,500,000.
Now there's running it. Class I's do sometimes let steam locomotives operate over their lines. Not regularly, but it happens. Smaller roads are probably a better bet. But the host railroad is going to require millions in liability insurance--I'm personally aware of requirements in relatively recent times and places from $1,000,000 to $50,000,000 per accident/occurrence. That's tens of thousands of dollars per year. Coal prices and grades vary somewhat, but commercially-recyled oil suitable for buringing in a steam locomotive is maybe $2 to $3 a gallon, and a run-of-the-mill 2-8-2 or 4-6-2 might get, oh, 0.1 mpg. So a 100-mile excursion might run $2500 for fuel. Plus water. Plus a licensed, steam-qualified engineer, fireman, and conductor. You have any idea what maintenance runs? It varies widely, but it's a lot of dollars and man-hours.
On to some specifics, and misconceptions: NS did not sell valuable steam parts as scrap, at least mostly. Many appliances were sold to other steam restorers and operators, to keep or get other locomotives going. Some machinery was scrapped (from Irondale, mostly), but a lot of stuff was sold at mostest prices or donated. Go ask TVRM what Southern and NS have given over the years!
NW 611 is the property of the City of Roanoke, so really, NS does not have the final say over whether it is restored, or operates. Of course, the money to get it operational and the place to run it are big issues, and NS is certainly one of the more likely (if presently at least somewhat unlikely) benefactors.
NW 1218 is a tougher issue, because it is relatively speaking a hollow shell: a lot of the guts were removed in 1992 for a rebuild that was in progress when NS canceled the steam program in 1994. Much of those guts are gone, as discussed above.
But to me, the interesting x-loco would be N&W 2156, a Y-6a 2-8-8-2 at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis. It has not run since 1959, but wouldn't it be amazing to see? It is by a considerable margin the hardest-pulling steam locomotive that still exists, with a measured tractive effort of about 166,000 lbs (versus, e.g., about 135,000 lbs for a Big Boy), and was designed to run up to 50 mph.
They replaced that ugly twin sealed beam headlight with the original headlight. Looks a whole lot better now!
NSdreamer I would do it myself, but I'm still in school without a job. Is that 1218 below your name?
Id love to see a CB&Q 4-8-4 under steam, Mars light included!!
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