Flintlock76 Well, God rest his noble soul! Maestro Porta didn't see "left," and he didn't see "right," he only saw steam and the best ways to keep it alive, no matter who used it. One has to admire him for that. A steam locomotive's like a big friendly dog, it's apolitical.
Well, God rest his noble soul!
Maestro Porta didn't see "left," and he didn't see "right," he only saw steam and the best ways to keep it alive, no matter who used it. One has to admire him for that.
A steam locomotive's like a big friendly dog, it's apolitical.
Well yes and no.
Would a person "flame" me for suggesting that both South Africa in the era of the Red Devil along with Cuba at the time of the Prometheous project were pariah nation states in that both were subject to economic sanctions?
That in a free-and-open-trade situation, diesels are what people use, but if your country isn't free to trade with other countries, for whatever reason, steam is considered?
As Overmod suggested, it appears that for steam to reemerge in one of these pariah countries, there has to be a confluence of this status along with the sanctions not driving the country in question so far backward that it cannot find people to fabricate a boiler?
In the Red Devil, Wardale chronicles experience in three cultures of countries with some level of pariah status. The U.S. could be considered in this category because the early 70's and early 80's "oil shocks" could be considered non-free markets in oil where other countries were sanctioning the U.S.?
In South Africa, Wardale, with some exceptions, found a "can do" spirit among the train crews and shop workers although the higher-ups were "passive aggressive" on retaining steam. In the U.S., the effort was largely mired in Vu-Graphs and meetings and never cut any metal -- HSR is encountering the same problems here in the 21st century. In China, they had emerged from the Maoist days just long enough to bring in Wardale but not long enough to get past the culture living under a Marxist-Leninist regime of "just do enough to get by and do no more to not call attention to oneself and get into serious trouble." Once China developed whatever kind of economic system you call it that they have these days, where there are no economic or political constraints on trading with other countries, they no longer feel the need for steam locomotives?
I got it. The last frontier for a steam revival is -- North Korea?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicWould a person "flame" me for suggesting that both South Africa in the era of the Red Devil along with Cuba at the time of the Prometheous project were pariah nation states in that both were subject to economic sanctions?
Pariah nations? Certainly South Africa at the time, but Cuba was a little different. Only the United States had an embargo on Cuba, Cuba could trade with any other nation they wanted to, and vice versa.
I've seen this on and off in the past, blaming the big bad US for Cuba's economic woes. Sorry, their economic problems weren't our fault, they were THEIR fault.
Communism doesn't work. Even the CCP figured that out.
What kind of political/economic system does China have now? In an odd way it makes me think of Fascist Italy, a capitalist economic system under the rigid control of a dictatorship.
I have been asked to reconsider my posting, I may have taken a few things
Paul wrote too hard. So I deleted it.
Sara the one and only 05003
I started this thread with the idea that bringing back steam locomotives to do useful work was a good thing. I brought up the Prometheus project in Cuba as having had possibilities. Instead of "going big", this project "went small", and a small high-tech steam locomotive may have a better chance of succeeding. For starters, smaller things are less costly to build than big things.
The word pariah means an "outcast" or a person who is "despised and avoided." If you are a pariah, that does not mean that you are a bad person. It means that there are people, who for whatever reason, don't want to associate with you.
OK, I "get" that the only country "shunning" Cuba and its people is the United States?
Blame it on the U.S., blame it on Communism, blame it on the fall of Communism, blame it on past neo-colonialism, blame it on the weather, Cuba is not a powerful and wealthy country. I suggested that the need for Cuba to engage in self-reliance rather than just importing diesel locomotives and diesel fuel like everyone else could have been a catalyst for the reemergence of a steam locomotive others would want.
This business of having every word parsed and every idea questioned is simply getting out of control.
Paul Milenkovic Cuba is not a powerful and wealthy country. I suggested that the need for Cuba to engage in self-reliance rather than just importing diesel locomotives and diesel fuel like everyone else could have been a catalyst for the reemergence of a steam locomotive others would want.
And it would have made a lot of sense for them. The beauty of a steam locomotive is as long as you've got something to burn in the firebox you've got power. In Cuba's case all that bagasse from the sugar cane fields. The Filipinos burned bagasse in their steamers too.
If you don't have coal or oil you burn what you've got.
Flintlock76 ...If you don't have coal or oil you burn what you've got.
...If you don't have coal or oil you burn what you've got.
As those Spanish speakers would say, "Quando hay hambre, no hay pan duro."
When one is hungry, there's no hard bread.
>>As those Spanish speakers would say, "Quando hay hambre, no hay pan duro."<<
Oh, yes, ohhh yes!
Sara
.
For those interested, Shaun McMahon is giving an online presentation on the LVM 800 concept on May 15 13 at 3pm Argentina time (GMT-3 so a couple of hours later than most USA time). While the presentation will likely be in Spanish, neither the questions nor comments will need to be, and I'm sure you can arrange proper contact with Mr. McMahon for more. Register here:
https://forms.gle/CmE8CsY1jLbJsS4X6
(the link printed on the materials was a disaster, in all caps and contrasting colors)
Overmod For those interested, Shaun McMahon is giving an online presentation on the LVM 800 concept on May 15 at 3pm Argentina time (GMT-3 so a couple of hours later than most USA time). While the presentation will likely be in Spanish, neither the questions nor comments will need to be, and I'm sure you can arrange proper contact with Mr. McMahon for more. Register here: https://forms.gle/CmE8CsY1jLbJsS4X6 (the link printed on the materials was a disaster, in all caps and contrasting colors)
For those interested, Shaun McMahon is giving an online presentation on the LVM 800 concept on May 15 at 3pm Argentina time (GMT-3 so a couple of hours later than most USA time). While the presentation will likely be in Spanish, neither the questions nor comments will need to be, and I'm sure you can arrange proper contact with Mr. McMahon for more. Register here:
The link has a button for an English-language translation and offers a simple-to-fill out form. The talk appears to be the first in a series in using biomass as an energy resource -- remember, the LVM 800 was intended to burn ag waste.
Do you have any idea if this will be recorded? Should one register to be able to see the recording, or will this be posted to a Web site as other talks of public interest often are?
By the way, US Central Daylight Time is 2 hours earlier than Argentina, so the talk at 3 PM in Argentina should start at 1 PM in Chicago or Milwaukee.
Hey, everybody, the link shows the Webinar to be May 13, which is tomorrow Thursday. Be sure and sign up if you are interested.
The one application that no one has considered is the one sail ships have made a come-back: as a device of educated recreation and sports activity. The best sail ships that have ever been built have been built long after sailing had freed itself from the constraints of bread and butter construction and handling of the commercial sail shipping. Like steam locomotives, during commercial cargo shipping, many tall ships went on worldwide tours with so-so equipment, crews that were "shanghaied" in cheap harbors were badly paid and went under a stringent regime of a captain who was an absolute and ferocious ruler and mercilessly beat ship and crew over the seas to meet appointments. That's probably why every year up to 10% of the ship's tonnage was lost in notorious regions. The steam locomotives as much as they were condemned for being what they were, were also "starved" out of service by a minimum of insufficient and indifferent maintenance. I have asked a number of former steam train line side photographing / filming /sound recording fans if the experience wasn't compromised by seeing the locomotives suffer seriously. Some were thick-skinned or played being it, but some others after considering said "Yes it was less than enthusing" "It did take something off" "It was annoying to a degree" Now these better enjoy the clean and generally well cared for preserved steam locos on touring the lines now. In Britain, say what you want, they have attacked the next step and have started building steam locos new, now still to the old plans of the renowned historic figures looming large through history-laden heavily with heroic stories of men and machines like Shakespear's dramas. Why not take the next step and go for locomotive types not realized. I would say, the planned BR class 10 4-8-4 (however please not with a - 8 - tender but with a double bogie 4 - 4 type), then one of the tragic Chapelon 1950s types, for instance, the 2-10-4 that had once really been started when the final cut fell upon it, in Germany one of the many plans for an eight coupled express type, 4-8-2, 2-8-4 (4-8-4 only if allowed to have a longer than 23 meters total wheelbase) or, my personal choice Juniatha's 4-8-2 type or the 2-10-4.
Those would be good-looking new steam locomotives that could take up with electric traction as concerns speed and schedule.
What do you think?
SARA 05003
And how much would the regular maintenance costs be for this exercise in esthetic pleasure? And how would they meet environmental standards?
Sara TWhat do you think?
Something I'd add would be a couple of the North American Locomotive Company designs by Riley Deem... one of which was explicitly based on Chapelon's 2-10-4 and another of which was a gear-conjugated PRR Q2. (Deem was a Lima engineer in the Golden Age.)
And I'd like to see someone engineer the shortcomings out of the BR 06 and then replicate it as a European counter to T1 5550...
Chegewish, (or ~ so)
I'm tempted not to answer that at all, so see it as my extra gratuitous courtesy if I do:
>>regular maintenance costs<<
If you make, say, two excursions a year same as today with old locomotives, then it's your own fault if you go "maintaining" in the shed on a weekly basis.
>>how would they meet environmental standards<<
Well, how do they now?
Man, I really thought you would imagine that a new steam locomotive fired by light oil (see the Swiss prototype made of 52 8055) is cleaner than a diesel engine because it's external continuous combustion with any relation λ to air surplus as considered best suitable. Overmod would just write "See the test results there, I have them here but can't undig them at the moment" (no, he wouldn't, he'd do better )
But if you don't want to invest in positive thinking you may of course just stand off but then please don't spoil it by grumbling.
Thank you for understanding, thanks.
Hello Overmod
Uhm, Juni's 2-8-2? I don't know that one. I mentioned her express type, in basic parameters a continuation of the classic French Mountain types: four-cylinder compound and double bogie eight wheels tender. The other is a more radical resurrection of the 50-80 class she likes so much, yet as a dual purpose type, a de Glehn four-cylinder compound large wheeled 2-10-4, or 2-10-4+4-4 to name the complete wheel arrangement. She looks fast, capable, and aesthetically stunning on the side elevation drawing alone!
The BR 06 (Baureihe - series):
If you wanted to make a good working 4-8-4 of it, then you'd have to change a lot: all the boiler, the middle drive and inside cylinder disposition, the lateral adjustment of front bogie, rear truck and coupled axles. And then you'd find that a 4-8-4 cannot be made to fit on a 23 meters turntable, just too many axles and not enough length. Ok, you could make a small "dual-purpose" 4-8-4 with, say, 1750 to 1800 mm wheels (in inches, uhm-uhm: 69 to 71 in) but what is this not-quite grown-up 4-8-4?
Oh, the Russians had one, the P36 with 1850 mm wheels (in inches, pooh: 73 in) and that on a profile over 5 meters high (200 in). I saw one when I traveled the Trans Siberian railway for a filming project, put up as a monument next to the platforms, I think it was in Tsheeta if I remember right, I just saw the locomotive from the window of the car while the train entered the station: impressive, a bit "1950s futuristic" in the style of the early space orbit technics, powerful but not really elegant, just really Russian, it let no doubt about it could pull away any long express train, 18, 20 or 22 coaches, makes no difference, although it weighs about 1/2 of the American 4-8-4s. They are obviously really proud it, and have one or a few in running order and absolutely clean now. See this test train of three cute new silver coaches and a clean green locomotive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc9voW2002s
You can scroll forward to about 4:30 to see the train start; later fast runby: clacking of rail joints but no noise from the rods!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnzH91pKnVA
"Ретро-поезда АПРЕЛЬ 2018 (паровозы П36-0218, ФД20-1679, Л-0073 и ЛВ-0233)"
Got it? (Gee) A nightly scene in a big station: another P 36, in blue with yellow (?) stripe and colorful emblem on the tender. You see, don't complain about the "fear-of-failure" diesel behind the steam loco, here they get the Bo-Bo-Bo electric right in front! No need for pulling for steam when "rolling" away by electric power.
Then scroll FF to about 9:00 and see the blue P 36 0218 again (and an absolutely Rrrusssian rail car passing by and the Decapod series L with some ubelywhoop tender and an FD (Felix Dzeshinsky) then at 15:20 the паровозы П36 (parowsow P36) starts again ..
And here's a cab ride in blue P 36 0218. Note regulator opens forwards, valve gear is by a lever and probably some servo. Signal tower to loco crew is much the same as on every railroad, only it's in Russian, geee ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqaxliz1yyA
Extension: you should see this steam festival (at 2x speed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVnanCywPj4
and listen to this as background music for it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gm7L3LEyz8
gives one a light and floating almost unreal feeling!
Just a big steam locomotive (what? well, I should say so)
in light blue with white stripe and bright red wheels ..
And here they are doing the diesel railcars, well, uhm, see yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN9Hja208XI
In spite of their space-age futuristic front end styling they are brought to .. ( the roof front reflects the hair cut fashion then, gee..) .. at 5:00 work begins. This must have been the like when a Tyrannosaurus went dining, with all the manners (at 11:15 it breaks its backbone, hoo-hoo-wow, brutal!) Uuuaah, no, I got enough.
What were we about? Oh, yes the 4-8-4 ..
Sara T But if you don't want to invest in positive thinking you may of course just stand off but then please don't spoil it by grumbling.
I'm hardly grumbling. Steam locomotives in regular service are a small distant memory to me so I have trouble understanding why diesel fans like me are looked at askance for having little interest in steam. I do look for old diesels still in service but steam, not really.
Ok.
(Old diesels grumble when idling, but diesel fans don't? I see.)
CSSHEGEWISCHI'm hardly grumbling. Steam locomotives in regular service are a small distant memory to me so I have trouble understanding why diesel fans like me are looked at askance for having little interest in steam. I do look for old diesels still in service but steam, not really.
I learned a new word today: askance. I love learning new words!
As far as the small group of people that hold onto some belief that steam locomotives are superior and will rule again? Jsut let them have their fantasies. Reality proved otherwise.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I'll try to let that go except for when they imply that diesel fans are not real enthusiasts.
CSSHEGEWISCHI'll try to let that go except for when they imply that diesel fans are not real enthusiasts.
Gatekeepers are annoying in any hobby. Sometimes the worst part of being in a fandom are the other people in the fandom.
CSSHEGEWISCH Sara T But if you don't want to invest in positive thinking you may of course just stand off but then please don't spoil it by grumbling. I'm hardly grumbling. Steam locomotives in regular service are a small distant memory to me so I have trouble understanding why diesel fans like me are looked at askance for having little interest in steam. I do look for old diesels still in service but steam, not really.
By the same token I was born after cabooses disappeared, so I guess I don't know enough to miss them.
In my experience diesel, steam and electric traction fans are all equally good at grumbling about how awesome the 'good old days' were. Positive thinking indeed.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Chegewish
I already posted it. You described it and it's ok with me.
Perhaps not ok with the one from the comix book who would have liked to see us go into a verbal fight.
But I don't usually do what another comix figure wants me to do
and I believe you don't either.
zugmannAs far as the small group of people that hold onto some belief that steam locomotives are superior and will rule again? Jsut let them have their fantasies. Reality proved otherwise.
Well Zug, people do need their fantasies you know. You've got yours and I've got mine. Look at our avatars for cryin' out loud!
That fact alone probably says more about us than words ever can!
As I recall, an interesting 2-8-2 can be developed to match what a good American 4-8-4-sized engine in typical for-profit North-American-type engine service could have achieved, when all the modern maintenance, thermodynamic, etc. conveniences (including better circulation, air preheat, and exhaust-steam recovery) are applied.
With a good steering lead truck on any of the proven European patterns, something made easy with a lead driver with roller bearings in a cannon box with lateral-motion accommodation, there need be no more than a single leading axle. Likewise optimizing combustion efficiency, using the right kind of thermal barrier coatings and circulators, etc. at the firebox end removes any need for two axles, Bissel vs. weight-distribution, etc. considerations and allows only a single trailing axle to 'do everything well'. The actual engine remains at 4-8-4 proportions, and the weight on drivers remains at least as good; only the wasted overall length and added structure... and the parasitic power needed to tote that around, steer it, etc. ... can be dispensed with.
Many of the same arguments apply to improving a N&W Y-class locomotive (which thermodynamically is a good enough 4-8-4 that ATSF considered using its boiler design to one of its 4-8-4 chassis) with IP modulation a la Chapelon. Now as fast as you need a freight locomotive to run, with acceptable augment, and 'as much compounding' as moment-to-moment the design can use and stay balanced...
Overmod
meanwhile I have asked Juniatha about "your 2-8-2" and she said she has nothing to do with any such type.
So all about it is also "out of the air". Don't know where you have it from but is sure was a misunderstanding somehow.
Never mind.
0S5A0R0A3
Well, I thought it was a good idea, anyway, and I apologize if I mistakenly thought it came from her. Let's edit the reference out... done on my side.
Overmod,
no problem!
It can happen. (it! it! it!)
Oh my, it rains and rains over here and stays cold.Well, not that cold, but "fresh" anyways. I'm sitting here with my black winterjacket on and have a pillow where I sit on the bank,my laptop on top of my lap ..
Sara, if you've got more rain than you can use feel free to send some over here, my lawn could use it!
It hasn't rained here in two weeks!
Oh, hello Flintlock,
Huh! I would love to do so, over here we are craving for sunshine, it had been warmer before but then fell back to that old winter lingering on. This is "German weather", tough time formerly for the steam loco drivers, unwavering having their right ellbow stick out on the window sill, nose in the wind, cap pulled down and cold rain stinging the face. Not sure if it will become summer this year, could be going on until September:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=763UU8pH6Do
September Song - Mantovani; so gray, so misty ..
Have a nice time
Pana Saraszewa
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