I am curious about whether there were ever three seats in the cab of a steam locomotive. I know that some brakemen were relegated to a doghouse on the tender, but that seems to be the exception more than the rule.
During my recent in-cab experience on the Strasburg, I was so engrossed in my own role (guest engineer) that I never went over to really inspect the fireman's side; but I think there was only one seat there. On our run, the guest fireman, I think (I was concentrating, listening to the road foreman, and trying hard not to screw up), was standing the whole time, shoveling coal or taking a brief rest on his feet. What I would call the fireman's seat was occupied by the gentleman who had signed on as guest brakeman. And that got me to wondering where he would be if the poor fireman needed some actual sit-down rest.
In the book Set Up Running, there was usually a brakeman in the cab. Did the fireman and brakeman have to take turns sitting in the single left-side seat?
I was lucky enough to ride in a couple of different MLW (Alco) passenger A-units on VIA trains. IIRC, there was a third seat in the cabs of those diesels.
But I have never seen a photo showing three seats in a steam engine cab.
A few more questions:
In the book, the engineer would frequently take a turn shoveling, as sometimes would the brakeman. How common was that? And if the brakeman helped, was that technically a craft violation? (This was in the early 1900s.)
Back in the days of hand brakes only, how many brakemen would there be on a long train? Seems like they would need quite a few!
Finally: When I worked for GARR (diesel era), there were five-man crews. Engineer, fireman, head brakeman, conductor and flagman. The term "head brakeman" implies that there is also a "rear brakeman." But on the Georgia and A&WP, the trainman in the caboose was always known as a flagman. Was that typical? Or did some roads designate that job as rear brakeman.
Still in training.
As a kid, my railroader friends and I would go to the Shop Track at Garrett, IN - after hours - and play on the equipment. The equipment included a couple of the B&O's T3 class Mountain engines that had been laid up in the 'dead line' on the Shop Track. As I recall, those engines had a 'seat box' behind the Fireman's seat on the locomotives. None of the seats were anything that anyone would call comfortable.
All the diesel engines that have been equipped as road service leaders that I have been on during my career all had 3 seats in the cab - 3 seats that were much more comfortable than anything that existed on the steam engines. The Butthead Yard engines would normally only have 2 seats, in my experience.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"LO," I'd say a lot of what your asking falls into the "It depends..." category.
Depends on the 'road, depends on the route, depends on the engine and consist. Some 'roads would have a seat for a head-end brakeman if he was a head-end regular, if he wasn't, no.
Camelback locomotives had a second cab on the left side where a head-end brakeman would ride if and when he was needed, and of course the PRR had the "doghouses."
From what I've read and seen through old photographs there was no hard-and-fast doctrine here.
On small to medium sized steam locomotives with cramped cabs the Brakeman's seat was often in front of the fireman's seat, shoehorned in between the backhead and the outer cab wall. It may not be readily visible from the Engineer's seat, especially if someone is standing in the middle of the cab (like the Fireman shovelling coal).
On our ex-CN Ten Wheeler the Brakeman's seat folds up and is easily removable, unlike the Engineer's and Fireman's seatboxes, both of which are bolted in place.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thanks, guys.
Maybe Strasburg 475 had two seats over there.
Flint, could you post a link to a pic of a camelback with a "second cab." I'm not familiar with that.
I have always been intrigued by camelbacks. Where can one see one now? B&O Museum? Are any left?
Lithonia OperatorI am curious about whether there were ever three seats in the cab of a steam locomotive.
NYC Niagara.
The 'second cab' he mentioned isn't really that at all. Think of a typical Camelback. The "other side" of the engineer's cab can't be reached from the engineer's side by anyone with a waistline more than Flat Stanley's, and so the 'fireman's side' of the forward cab is where the brakeman would ride.
Oh. Of course. I get it now. Thanks.
No sooner said than done "L.O.!"
Here's the Jersey Central's Camelback 592 at the B&O Museum in Baltimore. That cab you see on the left side of the engine is what I referred to as a head-end brakeman's cab, for lack of a better term. The engineer's cab is on the right side.
http://www.borail.org/CNJ-No-592.aspx
I very much doubt if a CNJ brakeman ever rode the footplate with the fireman, there were TWO firebox doors back there for the fireman to contend with and with the "rockin' and rollin'" of a Camelback at speed he really had his work cut out for him! Anyone else back there with him couldn't help but get in the way.
The question you asked earlier about whether an engineer would take a turn at the shovel to give the fireman a break is another "...it depends." Depended on the engineer, some were SOB's who would work a fireman to death, others remembered what it was like when they were firemen on the way up and didn't mind helping at all. The best-run steam engine crews always functioned as a team knowing full well the performance of the engine depended on both of them working together. It was true then, and it's true now, as I'm sure anyone running restored steam will tell you.
And I'm sure that head-end brakemen who didn't want to be brakemen forever would take a turn at the shovel, treating it as a learning experience.
Thanks for that link, and your input, Flint.
It's been 20 years or so since I visited the B&O Museum, and I definitely need to get back there. I cannot remember if that camelback was there (and restored/displayed) when I was there. I love those things!
Initially, did the engineer speak with the other two guys via a pipe or something? (Does that even work?) Or was there an electric intercom, at least in the later days? Walkie-talkies? When railroad radio became common, I assumed that's what they used. Yes/no?
LO
Lithonia OperatorInitially, did the engineer speak with the other two guys via a pipe or something?
Approaches to this have been discussed as long as 'cab-forward' engines have been developed. When it proves impossible to have the fireman's controls in the same cab as the engineer, the question comes up.
I don't remember explicitly if any Camelback had a speaking tube or, later, an intercom;I think I remember some mention of using the idea on certain engines, but have neither citations nor sources to substantiate that. It would be fairly simple to rig up a simple telltale with string or wire, and a simple code to transmit things back and forth without sound or vibration interference. I suspect the main idea was that the engineer could use whistle signals if he needed to alert the fireman, and the fireman could bang the shovel if shouting up the right side of the engine failed to get a response. For passenger work, the conductor's signal line would obviously pass the fireman's station and this could be available for communication to the head-end, e.g. a code for passing signals.
I note that according to an old Railroad Magazine story, the Erie Triplex had no way to do this explicitly; in a howling snowstorm the fireman finally gave up the effort to make steam (there was an epic line about 'rapping the steam gauge more times than there are hopper cars in the state of Pennsylvania' to have it show a few measly more psi as it points toward what would have been the ashcat's side) and just dropped off the engine to trudge home ... carefully not recording the engineer's "communication" when he, presumably not long thereafter, ran out of steam.
Henderson definitely and somewhat famously included a speaking tube in the design of the Baldwin follow-ons to the Triplexes, the 'quads' and 'quints'. These work very well on ships, in environments likely as noisy as that on a locomotive, and it's possible there were actual tests.
I don't know of any Camelback service in 'the age of radio' that provided a separate transceiver or even a separate mike for the fireman ... in fact I don't know offhand of any Camelback that became 'radio equipped' in the modern era of AAR-approved practice. I would not think this would be 'cost-effective' even if desirable back in the day; it may not even be so now.
As far as I know there was NO communication possible between the engineer and the fireman on a Camelback type. I'm not sure if any means of communication was even attempted at any time. That was one of the many things that made the Camelbacks so unpopular with engine crews.
There's a story from the Ontario & Western, a user of the Camelback types. One of their engineers liked to ride on the windowsill of the cab in hot weather otherwise he'd roast from the heat of the boiler. One day they were making their usual run when the fireman noticed they'd passed several stations without stopping. He made his way forward to the cab and found the engineer was gone! He knew enough about locomotive handling to stop the train at the next station and had the operator telegraph down the line with a "Be on the lookout" message for any following trains.
You guessed it! The engineer had fallen off during the run without the fireman knowing about it! Happy ending, the engineer was found, and not badly injured.
Does anyone have a clue why the title of this thread has twice, on its own, become:
Head brakeman's seat?
Can't figure that one out. Anyway, I've tried to fix it again. Maybe it will take this time.
Flintlock76 As far as I know there was NO communication possible between the engineer and the fireman on a Camelback type. I'm not sure if any means of communication was even attempted at any time. That was one of the many things that made the Camelbacks so unpopular with engine crews. There's a story from the Ontario & Western, a user of the Camelback types. One of their engineers liked to ride on the windowsill of the cab in hot weather otherwise he'd roast from the heat of the boiler. One day they were making their usual run when the fireman noticed they'd passed several stations without stopping. He made his way forward to the cab and found the engineer was gone! He knew enough about locomotive handling to stop the train at the next station and had the operator telegraph down the line with a "Be on the lookout" message for any following trains. You guessed it! The engineer had fallen off during the run without the fireman knowing about it! Happy ending, the engineer was found, and not badly injured.
Amazing story! Glad he was okay. Was he fired the next day?
Lithonia Operator Does anyone have a clue why the title of this thread has twice, on its own, become: Head brakeman's seat? Can't figure that one out. Anyway, I've tried to fix it again. Maybe it will take this time.
Some kind of glitch in the website, I've seen it before.
Lithonia Operator Flintlock76 As far as I know there was NO communication possible between the engineer and the fireman on a Camelback type. I'm not sure if any means of communication was even attempted at any time. That was one of the many things that made the Camelbacks so unpopular with engine crews. There's a story from the Ontario & Western, a user of the Camelback types. One of their engineers liked to ride on the windowsill of the cab in hot weather otherwise he'd roast from the heat of the boiler. One day they were making their usual run when the fireman noticed they'd passed several stations without stopping. He made his way forward to the cab and found the engineer was gone! He knew enough about locomotive handling to stop the train at the next station and had the operator telegraph down the line with a "Be on the lookout" message for any following trains. You guessed it! The engineer had fallen off during the run without the fireman knowing about it! Happy ending, the engineer was found, and not badly injured. Amazing story! Glad he was okay. Was he fired the next day?
No, he healed up all right and went back to work. Presumably a lot more carefully!
very interesting, I have always heard in cab was engineer, fireman and head brakeman, where he sat I have no idea, but explanations listed make sense. I have always heard in caboose was conductor and rear brakeman and sometimes a flagman. My grandpa was a Frisco freight conductor and later passenger and he'd share stories to Mom about the rear brakeman riding with him, that is the way he started after working on section gang for a while. I think flagman was needed depending on size of train and speed. Have no idea how many brakeman needed to turn the hand brakes, have a pic of him on top of a car that someone took and can't see anyone else, but I would think they would need a few. They had to move from car to car turning the brakes, and one person alone could not do it, unless it was a short switch move.
I have never tried to attach a photo on here before, and tried the one of my grandfather as brakeman standing on top of car. Have no idea who took photo or where, had to be in late 1800's. can't see anyone else on photo. The pic turned out shaped funny and skinny, but you can get the idea.
Great picture! Looks like it was a nice day and your grandfather was enjoying the scenery. Looks like he's wearing an old-fashioned policeman's helmet too. Makes good sense, keeps the sun off his head and gives a bit of protection as well.
From what I've read the New York City cops at the turn of the 20th Century weren't happy at all when those helmets were declared obsolete. In addition to providing head protection they made the officer a bit more impressive-looking and were a great place to store paperwork and cigars!
Notice the Brakemen decorating the car tops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpykhdTntdA
Thanks Balt!
So long ago, a bit like looking at ghosts.
I know the Reading T-1s the 4-8-4s had three seats in the cab. One on the engineer's side and 2 on the fireman's side. Even had an extra window on the fireman's side.
Did Camelbacks have a brake handle or two (train and independent) for the brakeman for emergencies?
daveklepperDid Camelbacks have a brake handle or two (train and independent) for the brakeman for emergencies?
That's an interesting question.
Almost no Camelbacks appeared to have more than a rudimentary English-style sort of 'spectacle plate' "cab" for the fireman, and it is not likely to me that a head brakeman would ride there by choice. Likewise I was unaware of any automatic brake valve ever being provided there... or of any independent valve, or emergency-brake trip valve, like the one in a passenger car, for the fireman's use.
That raises the interesting question of what, if any, brake controls were in the 'other' side of the cab structure, opposite the engineer. I doubt it would be cost-effective to plumb an automatic valve over there, and an independent brake worked by someone with highly defective communication to the engineer is unlikely as well, but at least plausible. That leaves the emergency trip.
Mat least two Camelbacks survive that I know if (in Baltimore and St.Louis) and these could be physically checked to see what is there (or get hints on what might have been tried but later removed). No account I have read of running them indicates braking from the firing position or head-end brakemen working an actual brake on the engine and not the train.
David, if you click on the link I posted on January 29th of this year to the B&O Museums Camelback, and then click the link to the photo spread, photo 11 has a view of what I'll call (for convenience) the brakeman's side of the locmotive.
I don't see anything there that looks like brake handles, but honestly I wish there was more detail than there is.
Of course, that's just one Camelback belonging to one railroad. Whether there were brake controls on some, none, or all, is still open to conjecture. I'd never say "never," railroads could pick and choose how they wanted locomotives equipped.
Here's the link again, for everyone's convenience...
Scroll down to "View full album here," click on "here."
Another Camelback story. When the Pennsylvania Railroad saw how "popular" Camels were with other 'roads they figured they should try them too, and bought four.
The Pennsy didn't like them at all, they especially didn't like the total lack of communication between the engineer and the fireman, so after short time they sold the four to the Long Island Railroad, who didn't like them either.
What happened to the four after the LIRR unloaded them I have no idea.
Thanks. Apparently, the "brakeman's cab" was just a place to ride.
daveklepperApparently, the "brakeman's cab" was just a place to ride.
Doghouses, too, although it was certainly technically feasible to run a brake line of some sort up to them. While it beats riding out in the weather, I understand they could be drafty chill in winter and like a Dutch oven in summer sun.
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