I am currently trying to get more people aware of this proble. Right now, not enough people know about this loco and it’s saga to do anything about it BEFORE July 1st. The seller set that deadline for the time an offer must be made. (Remind anyone else of that CP Mike?) The locomotive is McKees Rocks, PA, on a spur with no connection to the main, The roads are too narrow to move her by truck, but she could potentially be disassembled and loaded onto flatcars as CSX allowed with C&O 1309. This is the last of the B&LE 2-10-4s left and it needs to be saved. Regardless of the owner’s previous claims and deals, the locomotive has to be sold due to the land it rests on being sold. There is also an N&W Auxillary water tender at this site and an ALCo S1. Both need homes also. Please support the rescue of 643 by telling others of this!!
I am curious about that deadline. Is that a deadline by which the locomotive must be removed from the property? If not, is there such a deadline, and what date is it?
I am also curious about the kind of deal that was struck to store the locomotive at this site. Apparently, it has no provision for time to move the locomotive if the storage agreement is terminated.
If 7/1/19 is the drop dead date for removing the locomotive, what will be the consequence of not meeting that deadline? Any responsible agreement would have that clearly spelled out.
From what has been said and posted, the deadline to make an offer on the loco is July 1st. I’m assuming they would prefer the loco off the property by then, but they probably will hold the loco afterwards if an offer is made by then.
I like the $375K price tag. A bit optimistic there.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Last time I looked, scrap steel was selling for 5 cents per pound. A 5000,000 lb loco would have a scrap worth of about $25,000. The asking price for that non-operational loco is probably a bit much for a rail museum.
JJJ from the Age of Steam made several offers to buy 643, but he was turned down. At the time of the offers, there was still a connection to CSX. Now that the switch is removed, 643's actual value is even less because it is land-locked.
The Age of Steam was 643's best hope. Now, I fear that she will be cut up for scrap. Whoever appraised it at one million dollars is completely wrong, or maybe the "appraisal" was just a plant to try to convince someone that $375k is a bargain.
I would not be surprised if the "appraiser" is found to be talking through his hat. It appears that his appraisal was based on the going price for new diesel locomotives and scaled down from that number. I hate to say it but the going price for scrap metal may be more realistic.
It is a very unique market for an old steam locomotive, and it is worth what a motivated buyer is willing to pay. Moving it will be very expensive, and moving it on a tight deadline will add more cost.
Yet there are probably plenty of people who would buy it for a price acceptable to the seller, but he has to do some very specialized marketing to find that buyer. Just putting it out on the grapevine is way too limited. What is needed is a commission or fee based marketing agent who will advertise the locomotive.
There is also the complication of the drama that is building around the locomotive due to the owner's claim that the land had been sold and the locomotive must be removed by a certain date. Is that true?
That claim plays a big part of this transaction, and it is a double edge sword. If true, it motivates would-be buyers, and lowers the value of the locomotive, but raises the price of moving it. It also pressures the seller to reveal just what the terms are for the locomotive being in that location in order for a potential buyer to check with the land owner to see if there is wiggle room on the date to remove the engine.
If the the land has been sold, and the land owner is forcing removal of the engine, a potential buyer would want to know what liability he will incurr if he does not meet the removal date.
EuclidYet there are probably plenty of people who would buy it for a price acceptable to the seller, but he has to do some very specialized marketing to find that buyer. Just putting it out on the grapevine is way too limited. What is needed is a commission or fee based marketing agent who will advertise the locomotive.
The history of this particular locomotive, and of its eccentric ownership, is well known and even more well hashed-out in the preservation community. While "643" is not quite the groaner that "1361" is on RyPN, it is certainly the first runner-up.
The owner (Mr. Campbell) thinks that because he put so much work into 'restoring' the engine a couple of decades ago, the accrued value of the cost of that work should be included in the 'price' of the locomotive. For that reason alone he's unlikely to 'settle' for even an order of magnitude's difference of what the engine would 'fetch' if it went the Dick Jensen route. I am worried that the recent precedents with the L&A engine in Port Arthur and the CP engine that had the 'pay quick or the kitten gets it' "Internet campaign" have made Mr. Campbell at least temporarily intractable to look at practical combinations of price and moving expense for even the shortest possible trip that preserves the locomotive relatively intact as an entity restorable to operation.
About the only thing that would work is for railfans to set up a 'shell company' licensed as a scrapper, and outbid the actual scrappers when the locomotive gets thrown on the market for whatever gets it out of there. Then have plans in place to jack the engine up, establish whatever road or track connections are necessary, and arrange what is needed to move it and get it 'settled' in an agreeable new home. I'm sure this has all been considered (and hopefully set in motion) by the folks 'in the know' in the preservation community, including those reading RyPN.
Overmod,
I agree with what you say, but my point in the quote is that the real market is way bigger than just the preservation community, although that extended market has rarely, if ever, been reached out to. With the right marketing, that market can be tapped, and there are people in it who could pay cash for the engine and the move to anywhere they wanted. Those people need to be reached and inspired to want the engine. I agree that Mr. Campbell may be the biggest impediment. I suspect that he may not really want to sell the engine, but just wants to test its worth to reassure himself. How much is publically known about the sale of the property and the resulting need to remove the engine?
Euclid ... my point in the quote is that the real market is way bigger than just the preservation community, although that extended market has rarely, if ever, been reached out to. With the right marketing, that market can be tapped, and there are people in it who could pay cash for the engine and the move to anywhere they wanted. Those people need to be reached and inspired to want the engine.
I'd agree with this in principle, except that this "opportunity" has been going so long, and the engine is so impossibly large and heavy and inaccessible to all but the knowledgeable, that it seems strange that anyone who 'might' be a white knight here wouldn't already either know or have tried and been rebuffed.
Don't expect a 503-style grassroots campaign intended to raise money for 'emergency action', either. I suspect as you note this would only make the asked price float upward in any actual 'negotiations'...
EuclidI agree with what you say, but my point in the quote is that the real market is way bigger than just the preservation community, although that extended market has rarely, if ever, been reached out to.
Or that market just doesn't exist.
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I know people love the "barn find" style of these types of engines and love to rush in to "save" something. Meanwhile, there's plenty of other engines in some sort of restoration process that could actually use that money to make a real difference.
zugmann Euclid I agree with what you say, but my point in the quote is that the real market is way bigger than just the preservation community, although that extended market has rarely, if ever, been reached out to. Or that market just doesn't exist. --
Euclid I agree with what you say, but my point in the quote is that the real market is way bigger than just the preservation community, although that extended market has rarely, if ever, been reached out to.
I think that market always exists, but most poeple don't realize how much it takes to reach it. Most people think you just put up the "for sale" sign and the whole world will know. But the reality is that you really have to hammer the message. It is like selling a house.
In any case, I don't expect this seller to make any effort beyond just putting it on Ebay.
This is the internet age. IF someone wants to buy a steam engine, they will find one for sale. If not, there's plenty of brokers. I don't think there's a large market of people that want to buy a steam engine, but can't find one.
And if they pay 300,000 for this, well, they have more money than sense.
But I guess we'll see what happens.
I'm pretty sure if anyone wants to find out if the land has actually been sold or not, they could easily look it up either online or in the county records office, those are public records even if they're between private individuals. That would be the first step to validate the claims about the property.
This one would look really good at the Lake Superior Transportation Museum with a gray boiler and the Missabe Road emblem on the tender. DM&IR acquired 18 Bessemer & Lake Erie 2-10-4 units in 1951 numbering them 700-717 and ran them until 1961. Number it DM&IR 718.
http://www.missabe.com/cms/taxonomy/term/93?page=8
http://www.missabe.com/cms/taxonomy/term/93?page=9
http://www.missabe.com/cms/taxonomy/term/93?page=10
Never say never, I guess, but it is hard to see a large locomotive like Bessemer & Lake Erie 2-10-4 643 with relatively low 64-inch drivers (not as fast as larger-drivered Berkshires, Northerns, etc.), and needing 124-lbs-per-yard rail to run on ever pulling an excursion train.
Bessemer & Lake Erie is part of the CN system, but it is not nearly as well known and so the locomotive would not be representative of CN overall. It is also a large locomotive that would be expensive to operate compared to smaller power, so it is not really the type of locomotive for frequent museum-style short out-and-back trips.
I think the best alternative we can hope for is that this locomotive which played such a large part in supplying the blast furnaces of the Pittsburgh area gets acquired by some philanthropic group that will allow it to be displayed as part of a museum collection.
The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania would be an appropriate place for this locomotive to be displayed, having toiled for its full working life in the State of Pennsylvania.
Another appropriate location for display would be the Lake Superior Railroad Museum, as the Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range acquired 18 of these 2-10-4 locomotives from the Bessemer & Lake Erie and they slogged away side-by-side with the DM&IR Yellowstones bringing iron-ore to the docks in Duluth and Two Harbors, MN.
It is a well-designed brute of a locomotive that did a very good job doing exactly what it was designed for, and it is a symbol of the zenith of American railroading and industrial might. It would be a fitting addition to an appropriate museum collection.
We will keep our fingers crossed.
I think a good place for it would be the Greenville RR Park, within wistle sound of the B&LE shops.
http://www.greenvilletrainmuseum.org/
Dropped pinNear McKees Rocks Bottoms, Stowe Township, PA 15136
Those are the coordinates for Google Maps.
It does not look promising.
However, there is a stub ended siding not too far to the north of the former N&W water tender that is still connected to the railroad network.
Perhaps temporary panel track could be laid and the tender, switcher and steam locomotive could be pulled on to the stub end siding for future transit.
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