What is the NYC steam locomotive equivalent of the 765 called?Hudson or Mohawk?
Neither. They were called Berkshires just like NKP 765.
Mohawks were 4-8-2's called 'Mountains' by most roads.
Hudsons were 4-6-4's, many roads had Hudsons. Even Nickel Plate.
Berkshires were 2-8-4's. Named after the Berkshire Hills along the Boston and Albany, a New York Central owned railroad.
And the C&O called theirs "Kanawhas."
Many railroads simply referred to various locomotives by their class. Louisville & Nashville Berks were class M-1, but that somehow got them the nickname "Big Emma's"
Some railroads were too proud (or stuck up, your choice) to call the various classes by their "given" nicknames, so gave them a name of their own, such as NYC and the Mohawks.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
according to Wikipedia anyways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Can't we add Boynton Bicycle to the ranks of the 0-3-0s?
And Kitson-Meyer is a different configuration altogether from any Garratt; it has the motor units immediately flanking a low firebox, instead of having the whole boiler between.
Likewise, no Garratt would be a double Hudson; it would have pin-guided trucks at both ends of the motor units which would make it a mandatory double Baltic.
(And while we're at it, the Mexican 4-8-4s are NIAGARAS, no matter how many dubious scholars try to make it rhyme with an ED nostrum. The blueprints are proof enough.)
Penny,
Thanks for your heroic and comendable inclusion of the list of wheel classification of steam locomotives known as the Whyte System.
I would like to point out one of the more egregious errors regarding the "Mountain" and "Northern" classifications in the list.
New York Central - 4-8-4 "Northerns" were called "Niagara" after the endless and remarkable power of the on line Niagra River and Niagara Falls - one of the regional wonders of the Great Lakes of North America.
New York Central - 4-8-2 "Mountains" were called "Mohawk" because of the famed advertising of the railroad as the "Water Level Route." For obvious reasons there were no "mountains" on the Central - only rivers like the Mohawk river named after the Native American tribe of the region.
Cheapeake And Ohio - 4-8-4 "northern" were called "Greenbrier" for less obvious reasons likely pertaining to the more southerly geography of the railway and locally famous Greenbrier hills outside of Washington DC. Americans were very touchy about the words north and south after the American Civil War as were the British in banning the Scottish kilt and bagpipes for 100 years after the Jacobite rebellion of Scotland.
Louisville and Nashville - 4-8-4 "Northern" were called "Dixie" because of the same hatred of the injury and loss to property and persons that happened in the American Civil War. "Dixie" was the famous battle song of the southern armies in the conflict. Regional disputes still evident in American politics today with the continued rejection of statues of military heros of the south and north.
------------------
I guess it would be of note to point out that the "naming" tradition of Whyte Classification traditionally fell to the first railroad to build or buy a particular locomotive type. When the New York Central needed more power for passenger work the 4-6-2 engines evolved into the 4-6-4 and the railroad wanted to name the new engine. It fell to the NYC company president to choose the name "Hudson" after the name of the Hudson River in New York. This was done irregardless of the French naming of the type as "Baltic."
Similarly the 2-8-4 "Berkshire" was named by the New York Central after Lima Locomotive works evolved the 2-8-2 type into a 2-8-4 for the NYC who named it "Berkshire" for the Berkshire Hills its main line passed through.
The "Northern" 4-8-4 type was named for the Northern Pacific Railroad who first developed the type for running in the western United States and likely has had the most naming variations due to US Civil War regional political differences.
Another really odd varitation of this 4-8-4 "Northern" type naming is from Canada which called the 4-8-4 locomotives built in Canada the "Confederation" 4-8-4 type. Canada was a confederation of provences by act of the Queen of England in 1867 which began the formation of the nation Canada we know today. Oddly Canadian railroads adopted the term nationalistic name "Confederation" but oddly later gave this term up for the more widely used "Northern." Appropriate considering Canada always has been the land of the north.
If the US railroads had done likewise and called the 4-8-4 "Northern" a "Confederation" it would likely have favored sectional American Civil War southern sentiments and been universaly adopted thereby eliminating a host of monkiers like CG "Big Apple", C&O "Greenbrier", DR&W "Western", Lackawanna "Pocono", NC "Dixie", LV "Wyoming", NYC "Niagara", SP and WP "General Service", WM "Potomac", UP "Four Eight Four" and NW "J" etc.
"Confederation" 4-8-4 being closer to the romantic sentiments of the Confederate States of America the lost southern cause in the American Civil War. This of course was sympathetically acceptable in the early 20th Century but would be highly regionally politically incorrect by todays standards.
I suppose there is no logical reason why Mexican railroads called the 4-8-4 type "Niagara" unless it was an obvious jelousy over the tremendous locomotive performance achieved by the New York Central with its famous 4-8-4 "Niagara" northerns!
The 4-12-2 type was named after the "Union Pacific" who was the only railroad to build it. The 4-10-2 was first built by the Union Pacific which named it the "Overland" and was afterwards built for the Southern Pacific Railroad where the "naming" was successfully stolen and it was then afterwards called the "Southern Pacific" type.
The 4-8-8-4 built only for the Union Pacific railroad could not use that name already given to its very own 4-12-2 type - so "Big Boy" was a mighty suitable next choice.
----------------------------
Naming is a tradition in human history often seen from religious tradition - fathers naming their children - ships Christened and named at their launch etc. Some names hated and some loved.
As I said thanks for including this very fine effort at Whyte wheel classification and Thank You.
Dr D
cat992cthe NYC steam locomotive equivalent of the 765
Dr D egregious errors
Wikipedia's errors, not mine.
I think the formatting of the list on Wikipedia is confusing.
It looks to me like the 4-8-2 classification has only two names next to it - Mountain and Mohawk.
Then, the list for the 4-8-4 classification is so large that it extends both above and below the 4-8-4 graphic. And it does include Niagara right after Northern. Notice the slightly larger gap between the line with Mountain and Mohawk and the first line with Northern, Niagara, Confederation, etc.
kgbw49the formatting of the list on Wikipedia is confusing
If you follow the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation you'll see that the original list included outlined boxes or "cells" for each entry. Those didn't copy doing a simple cut and paste.
And the Virginian (VGN) called them Berkshire (BA class).
As touched upon in an earlier post, actual railroaders rarely used these nicknames; they either used the class name or more often the number series, like "Eight Hundreds" or "Twenty-Four Hundreds".
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.