THE magazine of railroading

SEARCH TRAINSMAG.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

NYC T-Motor Electric Move From NY To LA

890 views
34 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
NYC T-Motor Electric Move From NY To LA
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:20 PM

Howdy all, this is my first post on any of the Trains Forums I've been on the Model Railroader Forum with this question and at the recommendation of the repliers I came here with it. (I'm not sure if I'm in the right sub-forum but here goes) Ok I was browsing the WWW via Google and I came upon a image of a NYC T-Motor Boxcab Electric along with its predecessor a S-Motor just rusting away in the woods of upstate New York and it got the steam pistons in the old noggin a running and I thought well what would I have to do to acquire the T-Motor and get it down to the Pelican State (me originally hailing from the Empire State I have a special place in my heart for the NYC) so in order to get it down to LA what would be the most economical/simple of methods? I must say that the nearest rail line is a branch (I guess) that runs from Baton Rouge through Zachary to Slaughter where there is a wye that connects to a small triple track yard and the rest of the line running towards the Pride/Port Hudson/St. Francisville area I live in the Ethel/McManus/Jackson area so my guess would be the loco if transported by rail would have to be transferred to truck for the last approximately 10 miles of the journey. This all is just speculation at this point. Any expert advise on what the requirements to get the loco into movable condition would be appreciated.

  • Member since
    September, 2010
  • From: Parma Heights Ohio
  • 1,614 posts
Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, March 20, 2017 7:48 PM

I'm no expert.  But here are a few considerations I would guess you would have to deal with.

  1. Who owns them now?  Unless you can purchase them from their rightful owners, even if zero dollars is the agreed upon sum, they can't be rescued.
  2. They would be moved as dead freight, so their capability to be in train like any freight car would be near the top of the list.  Most notably air brakes, wheel bearings and frame strength come to mind.
  3. Hazardous materials.  Do the locomotives contain asbestos or PCBs that would have to be abated before they can be transported across state lines?
  4. Can you provide a suitable storage and display area for a locomotive this size and weight?  Your city would have to be consulted to find out zoning requirements and a survey would have to be made to determine wether the geology of the proposed site is up to the task.

As I said, I'm no expert.  But God speed if you can save even one of those beauties! 

A waking Lithium Flower just about to bloom

  • Member since
    December, 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 7,794 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, March 20, 2017 8:53 PM

Why try to fix them for moving in a freight ?.  It "MAY" be less cost to put it on a suitable flat car and transport it that way.  Those cars are not cheap but cost may be less than trying to fix brakes and probable friction bearing that are not allowed on any class 1.

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Monday, March 20, 2017 9:00 PM

Well what would have to be done to put the loco on a flat. Do flats with a 56 ft 10 in depression and a capacity over 285,000 lb (142.5 tons) or would multiple flats need to be used? Thats of course to move it in one piece.

  • Member since
    June, 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 5,646 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, March 20, 2017 9:09 PM

blue streak 1

Why try to fix them for moving in a freight.  It "MAY" be less cost to put it on a suitable flat car and transport it that way.  Those cars are not cheap but cost may be less than trying to fix brakes and probable friction bearing that are not allowed on any class 1.

 

      Recall that the two Chinese J's, 2-10-2's were moved from Hoston to Iowa several years back?               It required four heavy duty flat cars[ 1car each for the  engines and tenders] (4- 2 axle trucks on each).

    The locomotives were transported by BNSF regular freight trains, with the engines moving behind the locomotives on the flat cars in each train.

 I have no ideas as to cost[$$$$$?], expensive!(?)   But it proved that they could be moved, and successfully; after being preped in Houston at the dock area.

 Ed Blysard ( a Forum member-edblysard) took pictures, and posted them on the TRAINS Forum, about the time they were being moved.

Sam

 

 


 

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Monday, March 20, 2017 9:15 PM

How long, wide, tall is the loco?

  • Member since
    December, 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 7,794 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, March 20, 2017 9:15 PM

cascadenorthernrr

Well what would have to be done to put the loco on a flat. Do flats with a 56 ft 10 in depression and a capacity over 285,000 lb (142.5 tons) or would multiple flats need to be used? Thats of course to move it in one piece. 

With  that  weight a flat with 4 axels at each end would that meet  standard  axel loadings ?  Then the other consideration would be bridge weight loadings with what Cooper ratings ?

 

RME
  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • 1,243 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:51 AM

This is the T-motor in the ex-power station yard in upstate New York, which has been discussed repeatedly on RyPN and is well-known to the locomotive preservation community.  A major issue is that access to the locomotive is extremely difficult; another major issue appears to be that, in part due to its chassis design, the locomotive could not be hauled on its own wheels in train in its likely current condition.

If I were going to move it, I'd need to coordinate a service like Hulcher to do lifting and positioning, and build cradles to hold the two half-running gear assemblies and the carbody separately.  These would then be secured to either flatcars or heavy-load trailers (like Silk Road's) once you got them effectively across the active adjacent main and yard, and transported -- naturally avoiding humps, and following routes with stack overhead clearance where possible.

At the arrival point, the underframe would be removed to its own track (and probably left separate while being refurbished).  I would mount the carbody on span beams at either end, "permanently" supported on adjustable screw jacks well outboard of the track underneath, allowing easy reassembly or 'wheeling' of the locomotive once the carbody and running gear were all restored; this relieves any particular need for cranes or special handling skills after the initial unloading operation.  (You will need some method of handling the jacks and beams, but even comparatively small hydraulic cranes should handle this.)

An important consideration is that the locomotive is not 'free for the taking' and if I recall correctly a large number of serious preservationists would strongly oppose removing this or the other ex-NYC locomotive from the Northeast, particularly to a location far removed from any existing preservation shop or volunteer base and with no more than 'shoestring' financial arrangements in place.

At a minimum, have the full amount of money needed for all the expected move costs plus renovation, physically on deposit 'in the bank,' before even calling around to see who would help donate equipment or money when the time comes.  And be very, very careful making 'connections' or discussing motivations with existing museums or people in the preservation field, as they have long and very wearying experience with certain people and personality types, including those that fit the hackneyed old genus 'foamite'. 

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:33 AM

I would first attain ownership of the loco, before moving it. Now how hard would it be to remove the body from the running gear?

  • Member since
    October, 2008
  • From: Calgary
  • 1,394 posts
Posted by cx500 on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:22 PM

cascadenorthernrr

I would first attain ownership of the loco, before moving it. Now how hard would it be to remove the body from the running gear?

 

Not too hard, if you have the money to pay for a couple of high capacity cranes.  I believe you will be well into five figures just for that, by the time you mobilize them to the site.  Then use that figure each time for at least two more lifts.  Preserving railroad equipment is very expensive, as evidenced by the many rail displays started with great enthusiasm and now decaying because there is never enough money even for routine upkeep.

Why don't you find a local rail museum and volunteer to help.  You will gain an understanding of what is required in time, money and resources.  Work under their direction and their priorities, though, not your own personal vision.  Too many museums have been burnt by initial energy and dedication fading, leaving a half finished project in pieces as the volunteer rides off to new endeavors.  Once you have established credibility there may be more flexibility. 

John

RME
  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • 1,243 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 2:06 PM

cascadenorthernrr
... how hard would it be to remove the body from the running gear?

Lifts off, after you disconnect a few cables, air connections and perhaps safety chains and the like.  On this locomotive there are a couple of pivot pins from the body, with side bearings, that are the connection.  The outer trucks are connected with their own pivot pins or 'radius bars' to the inner truck structure for each end, so you might want to transport the two trucks together instead of blocking up the extended 'tongue' of each inner truck where it bears on the outer one.

"Attain ownership"?  Where in the world do they teach people English expressions like that? 

 

  • Member since
    August, 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 6,183 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:53 PM

Now, now, RME, hold it on the "grammar police" stuff.

What I like to see here is enthusiasm and high-spiritedness for all things "steel wheel on steel rail."  If people show me that that's all I care about.  I'd hate to have someone scared off because they think their grammer isn't up to snuff.

And welcome aboard cascadenorthernrr!

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:56 PM

Thank you, Firelock76

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:23 PM

Ok upon some extensive research via google I discovered; One, the locomotives must be in movable condition beuse they were moved up the line for part of a movie; Two, could CAT pipelayers handle the lift they were used on the GN 441 at the Izaak Walton Inn to move it into position. Also do the cranes have to each have the lifting capacity of the entire load or the combined lift capacity of all the cranes like would two one ton cranes lift two tons or would it require each to have a capacity of two tons?

RME
  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • 1,243 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 8:57 PM

The issue is not whether the locomotive is 'movable' or even if it should be rolled on its wheels without checking and conditioning the bearings and journals first: it is that there is zero likelihood of rolling the locomotive anywhere that it could be loaded onto trailers, or moved to 'live rail' to be switched anywhere (as we could do with the wooden coach moved in West Chester a few months ago).

There will be a factor of safety applied to 'crane capacity' depending on the angle of approach and some other factors, but the crane ratings will roughly 'add' to give you the overall lift capacity, provided all the cranes lift through the same distance at the same rate.  I don't see any reason why pipelaying Cats approaching parallel to the sides of the locomotive can't sling and lift in pairs; that's an approach Hulcher and other firms use.  You would then 'extract' the two truck units, jig them for lifting (and probably attach a transportation frame or cradle with optimized tie-down points) and arrange to sling lift them out.  441 was a bit of a special case because it was largely 'tubed out' before moving (the engine and most of the heavy internal equipment was removed) but I don't think a T-motor is very large or very heavy, and it's a DC locomotive so there are no large and heavy or PCB-infested main transformers to worry about.

You will need 'track and time' across CSX to get the equipment in, and then to coordinate the move back across with the 'three pieces'.  I have not looked carefully at where you could 'stage' flatbed loading to make a move by trailer, but to my knowledge there is NO available siding space where flats could be switched and parked, and I doubt there is the money, even if you could arrange the permission, to put in a temporary switch and siding to live rail in that area.

So a priority, I think, is to start finding out if you can get a local contractor to do the lifting, and then to secure and transport the pieces (if you are set on moving them at least partly by rail) to a nearby convenient location with siding access.  I suspect it is at least possible to transport the truck units on MoW cars with rail ramps, and since NYC had tight clearances and locomotives going through the Park Avenue tunnel had tighter clearances still, I think that overhead and side clearance on nearly any suitable flatcar would work for transporting the body.

You also need to decide how you want to wrap the pieces for shipping.  I would not leave them exposed, even if the current state of the locomotive is weathered.  Perhaps even Visqueen plastic welded with something like a soldering iron would do; tarps with lots of hold-downs might be an alternative.

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:04 PM

So no PCBs (yes) but probably asbestos, correct? And would there be lead paint on/in the loco?

RME
  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • 1,243 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:18 PM

Interesting question about asbestos -- much of what there may be, for example in motor cables, might be easier to encapsulate than 'remove'.  I don't know what was used to lag the train-heat boiler, but it might just as easily be magnesia boiler-lagging material as asbestos -- you might ask this on the NYC Yahoo Group as if someone does not already know, they'll know where to look.

Likewise if there is lead primer, it will be substantially covered up by existing paint, so you might not need to remove it before moving the locomotive.  My recommendation (having had EXTENSIVE experience with old lead-based priming applied to cedar-shake siding close to WW1 era) is to provide yourself with proper fume-filtering PPE and use a radiant-heat stripping gun or tool to soften the old paint, then scrape manually.  I wouldn't use any sort of flame or overheat the paint film more than you 'have' to, and do NOT use abrasives or needle-gun the paint off as the lead dust will go everywhere and be miserable and ultimately probably very expensive to document as removed.  Do not stint on using a disposal company that does full EPA documentation of the hazardous residue removal and ultimate disposition.

There was a very recent post on RyPN showing the current 'best practice' for determining the layers of historic paint on a car or locomotive, with a discussion of how you determine the original color, or 'backtranslate' weathered or oxidized paint to its original characteristics.  Don't skimp here, either.  Once you strip the history, it's gone forever. 

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:24 PM

But far as longevity it would be better to remove any asbestos while you have the body removed than have to worry about it later. And I would be sure to document the paint extensively. I want to repaint #278 in the lightning stripe livery. 

  • Member since
    November, 2013
  • From: Ledyard, CT
  • 1,379 posts
Posted by BMMECNYC on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 4:11 PM

cascadenorthernrr
One, the locomotives must be in movable condition beuse they were moved up the line for part of a movie

They were moved for a movie 30 years ago.  Much has changed since they were moved by rail last.

Also I found out who owns them.  I do not believe they are interested in selling them at this time. 

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 4:23 PM

I see.

  • Member since
    August, 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 6,183 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 4:57 PM

cascadenorthernrr

Thank you, Firelock76

 

Yer welcome, Stephen!  We do manage to have a lot of fun here from time to time, and certainly learn from one another.

Let me pass on a bit of advice I got from "Field and Stream" magazine years ago.  Never assume there's any free land out there or what's on it is free for the taking as well.  EVERY square inch of ground in this country is owned by someone.  Goes without saying what's on that ground is owned by someone as well.

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:02 PM

I never thought that for a moment. I knew someone must own it. (whether they know it or not) If BMMECNYC would kindly reveal who it is it would be appreciated.

  • Member since
    September, 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 15,602 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:15 PM

cascadenorthernrr

I never thought that for a moment. I knew someone must own it. (whether they know it or not) If BMMECNYC would kindly reveal who it is it would be appreciated.

 

Perhaps part of a covert operation? Smile, Wink & Grin

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:20 PM

I'm not sure. Did you look into the Dearborn station move?

  • Member since
    September, 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 15,602 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:35 PM

I am sorry to say that I am not at liberty to divulge that information.

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:37 PM

If you did you'd have to kill me, huh? (HaHa)

  • Member since
    September, 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 15,602 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 6:59 PM

No, not that, but I am concerned about incidental collection of my communications.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:52 PM

What does that mean because I'm at a loss.

  • Member since
    November, 2013
  • From: Ledyard, CT
  • 1,379 posts
Posted by BMMECNYC on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:57 PM

cascadenorthernrr
I never thought that for a moment. I knew someone must own it. (whether they know it or not)

I can assure you they are fully aware of who owns it. 

cascadenorthernrr
If BMMECNYC would kindly reveal who it is it would be appreciated.

In case you were wondering, I was eating dinner with my wife and model railroad club.  You are not the center of my universe.

As far as the collection's ownership is concerned.  While I admire your enthusiasm for wanting to save these locomotives, your goals do not pass the litmus test of preservation (as Tom so eloquently pointed out on the MR forums).  

At the proper time, the ownership will become readily apparent, and I am sure that the owner would more than welcome your donation towards the actual preservation of these artifacts. 

As was pointed out in either this thread and/or the MR thread, what happens to the locomotive(s) when you can no longer take care of it?  They would be 1200+ miles from where they once ran, far removed from a majority of people who have an interest in the NYC.  They would be even more difficult to move back to their home territory by that time.   There would be little of the historic material left due to your renovation.   They would likely end up in a scrap yard. 

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • 539 posts
Posted by cascadenorthernrr on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:58 PM

I was not demanding anything just politely asking.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Trains free email newsletter
NEWS » PHOTOS » VIDEOS » HOT TOPICS & MORE
GET OUR WEEKLY NEWSLETTER DELIVERED TO YOUR INBOX
Connect with us
ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER

Search the Community