Thanks for your efforts and inputs Carl, they're much appreciated, by me at least, and I imagine by quite a few others.
Have you read the comments on your "Part Two?" There's a lot of negativity over there, which quite frankly suprises me.
I have, but want to concentrate on the positive. In particular I do not want to be drawn in to generic bashing of government employees.
Carl
Good point and direction.
I just finished reviewing one of my favorite sites on U-tube - the Pennsylvania Railroad K4 1361 collection.
Haunting sounds of what is a truely Pennsylania experience. I defy anyone to watch these videos not for the trains but for the people - the bystanders in them.
That haunting PRR K4 pacific 4-6-2 locomotive belongs no where else - its as much a part of the land as the land is of it.
Now I ask you to substitute in those videos - A Canadian National engine or a Baldwin switch engine - and tell me folks would have the same experience.
Neither would I go to the great Rockey Mountains to the Cumbries and Toltec to see some Chinese steam engine or for that matter some South American narrow gauge steamer.
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Because - I am always struck by Pennsylvania! - that the state itself is unique - its landscape - follage and topography - the Pennsylvaina hill country - they are quite Appalachia. And STEAMTOWN USA, Scrantion PA are found HERE in this often depressed, usually poor, and ethnicly built up of Scott - Irish imigrant populations area - with its own and unique meaning for the word "Gothic" comes to mind.
The area is often found of Celtic haunted hills, valleys, lost places, and lost ways. Yes, even today by car, the time it takes to travel through and by the back roads of it - yes is FOREVER.
The FRACKING oil and gas boom industry of today has hit some parts of APPALACHIA that have felt the fall from national grace for many years. Coal mining, once a major industry has been on severe decline - as has the steel making. Heavy rail transportation was once part of the region - which was at first intensely built throughout - eventually became unprofitable with the advent of the auto. APPALACHIA - this is where STEAMTOWN, USA resides!
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THIS IS THE EXPERIENCE - "Student pastor came from the local seminary to preach Christmas to an Appalachian community. He drove into the quiet foggy town with shuttered windows to the cinderblock "church meeting house" with tar paper roof and stove pipe chimney. After service a thin lady in blue denim asked him 'Pastor you-n are supposed to come for supper at our house!' As he entered the humble home closed by a door with a rope latch he was greated by dad who put out his hand - howdy! Luke the son whittling on wood said 'Welcome preacher!' Sister said Hi. Eveyone sat down to a plate of beans an bread - bowed and gave thanks. Pastor asked what Luke he wanted for Christmas - after a long silence - Luke answered 'Preacher - Christmas don't never come here!'
Following week the student pastor took a few Christmas gifts along - Christmas tree the local store decided not to use - one of his dad's old pipes for the father, hat from the closet not used for Luke, baby doll for sis, dress mom had that she didn't wear for mom.
Invited to supper again after Christmas Sunday service, the young pastor shared his Christmas thoughtfulness. Dad offered thanks, mom the Christmas dinner, Luke gave pastor the stick he was whittling and sister gave one of her best hugs.
Pastor reflected as he left - they of their poverty - had given him the true meaning of Christmas."
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If you take the time to watch the Pennsy K4 on U-tube - (1) "the train in Tyrone PA," (2) "the train slipping out of Tyrone PA," - it is the "native son" come home from the dead to greet the towns people again. Observe the child with a bike rides right next to the Pennsy K4 drive wheels as the slip - and the child is caught up in fascination. Other citizens are walking apace with the slow starting locomotive right at home in Tyrone PA. Eveyone is transfixed by the obviously lost history - THEIR LOST HISTORY - glad to come home to them again. They never wanted it to leave and their lives were diminished without the steam train that was always supposed to be there.
STEAMTOWN needs to get in step with the whole Pennsylvania state experience - and not be ashamed of it. STEAMTOWN needs to have found what Scranton, Altoona, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Philiadelphia are all about! In the hearts of the people - who are not happy their industrail cities have fallen to ruin! "IF they build it - they will come!"
Fix the Pennsy K4 - Thats my opinion!
Doc
Have to agree with you their doc, Steamtown would be a terrific place for the k 4 to run.
Dr DFix the Pennsy K4 - Thats my opinion!
Who is paying?
And there are many that would argue a PRR K4s would be just as out of place in Scranton as a CN Mikado.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The intern writes like he spent too much time reading L. Beebe. At any rate, he needs to realize that most people aren't as enthusiastic about the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as him. He suggests that a K4 is the core of the railroad experience, I don't share that belief. The railroad experience also includes ten Pullman-green MU cars racing to Randolph Street on a four-track main line in the morning rush, a pair of heavy GP38-2's pushing a cut over Clearing's hump and an NW2 switching a stell warehouse complex after delivering loads. The railroad experience is a LOT more than mainline steam.
No engines still exist that are original to Scranton except #565 and the corpse of a Lackawanna Camelback which molders in St Louis (another and very sad story), so of course seeing a K4 in steam would be great.
But the point to this post was to consider currently serviceable engines that might be leased to run at Steamtown.
The only K4 to run since the 1950s was in the Scranton NPS shops for years, undergoing what proved sadly to be an unsuccessful restoration. This too is another sad tale really not part of the discussion of what could run here. This K4 is now back in the museum in Altoons, facing the need for much more work to even run again at lowered boiler pressure.
Carl Fowler
The Pennsy K4 1361 is a bureacratic disaster - all the funds they spent to get it restored - and except for the new boiler backhead which could STILL be welded on to complete the restoration - the engine just needs competent reassembly!
Seems to me someone is going to have to put it togeather - why not contract Strasburg RR to finish the job right? In the STEAMTOWN shops no less? - we would all come just to see the overhaul get finished! - yes it should never have left there! - it is the answer to the whole STEAMTOWN steam power drama problem!
Wasn't the point of having the National Park Service run STEAMTOWN to get sufficient funding to be able to do projects like this anyway? I'm talking about history making projects!
You want a steam train that will bring folks to Scranton? Well there it is! Just sitting there! And mostly restored to boot - and without an effective home! - and with everyone clamoring for this to happen!
I miss the lack of common sense here!
If it were an equally important New York Central J-1 hudson 4-6-4 or S-1 niagara 4-8-4 would we want less?
Dr DYou want a steam train that will bring folks to Scranton? Well there it is! Just sitting there! And mostly restored to boot - and without an effective home! - and with everyone clamoring for this to happen!
It's in many pieces in at least 3 locations. I want to see a K4 running as much as the next guy (I wish it was the K4 trust instead of the T1 trust, but that's another subject). But what about engines that are in one piece and pretty much serviceable with no place to run? Frisco 1522? PM 1225? Carl Fowler listed other engines. I just don't see the hang up on the K4.
And while the K4 may bring some people to Scranton, I don't think it is the silver bullet (if there is one). You're trying to attract people to an industrial historic museum. Unfortunately that subject is widely ignored by current society for whatever reasons. It does not have the allure that civil war history holds. Steamtown will never be a Gettysburg.
If you go to Steamtown, it is divided into 3 parts. History/technology of steam locomotives, history of railroading itself, and a smaller tribute to the DLW. What is their primary focus? It's not 100% clear as you visit the museum. Yes, the museum needs to be more of a interactive discovery center, but the place is 20+ years old. That is the problem with trying to be an up to date interactive discovery center. If you don't have the continuous budget to keep upgrading enhancing, you become obsolete (and look the part) very fast.
PENNSY K4 FUNDING THRU GRANT REQUEST FUNDS
should be available for historical projects like the Pennsy 1361. Monies from a number of private foundations, trusts and individuals can be obtained simply by going through the grant request process.
The State of Pennsylvaina has declared the Pennsylvania Railroad K4 Pacific 4-6-2 railroad locomotive - The State Steam Locomotive.
I would think that if the National Park Service was really interested in the STEAMTOWN collection they could lay their hands on large additional funds from the Federal Govenment simply by asking for it.
When I was involved in local government it was very easy to submit for projects though following the traditional grant writing process. Our government spends millions for such mundane issues as "$100,000 grant for a video game preservation center," "$1,000,000 for a museum at the site of the famous 1960's Woodstock rock concert," "$500,000 spent to study how shrimp move on treadmills,"
The National Park Service also is a huge funding source for monies given for private projects throughout the nation. If you own an antique historic home you may apply for funding through the NPS - this is the same park service that has no money for STEAMTOWN but has millions and millions of dollars to give away to private individuals across the nation for personal historic projects.
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NATIONAL PARK SERVICE - Historic Preservation Grants Division:
1. Federal Tax Credit Program
The Federal Historic Preservation Tax Incentives program encourages private sector rehabilitation of historic buildings and is one of the nation's most successful and most cost effective community revitilization programs...
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2. State, Tribal, and Local Plans & Grants Division
Since 1968, the National Park Service has provided funding for a variety of grant programs aimed at protecting our Nations most significant historical and cultural sites and out diverse cultural heritage. More that $1 billlion dollars has been awarded to Federal, State, and local governments, Native American Tribes, non profit organizations and educational institutions for preservation projects in all 50 states and the U.S. Territories.
The Preservation Historic Grants Division is responsible for the administration of the National Parks Services's preservation grant programs:
- State Historic Preservation Office HPF Grants
- Tribal Historic Preservation Office Grants
- Tribal Heritage Grants
- Disaster Recovery Grants
- Underrepresented Community Grants
- Save America's Treasures Grants
- Preserve America Grant Program
- Japanese American Confinment Sites Grants
- Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs)
3 Historic Preservation Easements:
A preservation easement is a voluntary legal agreement that protects a significant historic, archeological, or cultural resource. An easement provides assurance to the owner of a historic or cultural property that the properties intrinsic values will be preserved through subsequent ownership. In addition, the owner may obtain substancial tax benefits.
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NATIONAL TRUST FOR HISTORIC PRESERVATION
.....The National Trust for Historic Preservation maintains a funding-centric blog "Show Me The Money: Federal Grant Opportunities at http://nthpgrants.blogspot.com
NATIONAL TRUST PRESERVATION FUNDS
JOHANA FAVROT FUND FOR HISTORIC PRESERVATION
CYNTHIA WOODS MITCHELL FUND FOR HISTORIC INTERIORS
PETER H. BRINK LEADERSHIP FUND
OTHER FEDERALLY-FUNDED SOURCES OF FUNDING & GRANTS FOR HISTORIC PRESERVATION PROJECTS
Institute of Museum and Library Services
National Endowment for the Arts
National Endowment for the Humanities
Transportation Alternatives Funds
PRIVATELY FUNDED GRANTS, SCHOLARSHIPS & FELLOWSHIPS
- American Express Partners in Preservation grant program
- Andrew W. Mellon Foundation
- Charles H. Peterson Fellowship
- E. Geoffery and Elizabeth Thayer Verney Fellowship
- Foundation of the American Institute for Conservation
- .........etc
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GENERAL RESOURCES FOR GRANT & FUNDRAISING SEAKERS
- Catalog For Fedral & Domestic Assistance
- Foundations Center
- Grants.gov
- The Grantsmanship Center - founded in 1972 by Norton J. Kiritz to offer grantsmanship training to nonprofit and government agencies
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With these types of funding available it seems odd to me that the National Park Service at STEAMTOWN has allowed the F. Nelson Blount Collection of steam locomotives under its protection to deteriorate even to the point of lacking paint and rain protection.
Why won't I personally fund STEAMTOWN? - go figure!
Just because you apply for grants from various and sundry funds and programs doesn't mean that you're going to get the money. Restoring a K4 is probably near the bottom of the priority list for a grant.
Dr D's list is helpful. But again I need to emphasize that the idea of this stream was to consider engines currently serviceable that might let Steamtown jump aheod of unfinished work and immediately resume steam mainline operations.
Steamtown's history with the Altoona K4 is not good. It resided in the Steamtown shops for many years. Finger pointing, recrimination, blaming for the disastrous outcome has deeply poisoned the waters regardless of who was really at fault for the fact that this large expenditure of PA funds at the NPS Sranton shops produced only a pile of parts that returned to Altoona in many many pieces.
Truthfully there is no chance this engine is going back to the NPS shops and sadly only a slim chance it will ever run again, at least at full pressure steam!
Grants are an obvious choice for work at Steamtown, but it is also important to remember that the NPS as a Federal agency is in a harder place to compete for those moneys than a private non profit would be.
The B&M 3713 is actually within striking distance of running again. it has a non profit raising the funds (the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley NRHS). We need to get this done before Steamtown even thinks about other work.
More importantly Steamtown needs to pursue other engines that can run right now!
Makes sense
FORMAL GRANT REQUESTS -
Only the first half of my list dealt with funds available to NPS and funding through the National Park Service. The second half of the list concerned other Federal Programs and the final part of the list with private endowments.
You would be shocked how many endowments need worthy projects to commit their funds to, and how much money is available simply for the asking.
FORMAL GRANT PROPOSALS can generate much of this needed funding for a variety of purposes. GRANTSMANSHIP or the formal process of grant request in a learned skill taught professionally.
I believe The Pennsylvania State Steam Locomotive PRR K4 1361 could be easily funded through such historical restoration funding. As undoubtedly could funds for the restoration of NYC 3001 4-8-2 as the only surviving example and the primary exhibit of The National New York Central Railroad Museum and other locomotives and projects also such as funding to finish welding the boiler backhead of N&W 1213 at the Roanoke Virginia Museum.
Local govenments and school systems are often trained in grant request procedures to obtain Federal Govenment funding. Anyone trained in historical research, historical writing, or professional museum restoration work should know this also know how to do this. Professional grantsmanship writing is often a full time career.
Google - "grantsmanship" for a full explanation of the fundraising processes.
Writing a grant proposal for say "Funding for the completion of historic restoration of Boston and Maine steam railway locomotive in possession of National Park Service for operation at STEAMTOWN, Scranton PA." This is a noble project and entirely worthy and within the paramaters of requested benevolant funds. Similarly is funding requested to preserve steam railway locomotives in possession of STEAMTOWN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE!
Grant proposals often require enough planning "to envision a process" by which the proposed project could be completed. Such as, "Funding to be made available to complete restoration of Commonwealth of Pennsylvaina State Steam Locomotive K4 1361 to return to operational service, such work to be completed by Strasburg Railroad shops, York PA, to enable use by the National Park Service in STEAMTOWN Scranton, PA." This of course would follow Altoona and Strasburg et al. deciding to do such a project.
In the end it just becomes a matter of the search for the right endowment and the completion of the grant funds request process.
Dr, its not as easy as you think. Your competing with thousands of grants.
Let's make it easy, write the check, it be so simple.
Dr DWhy won't I personally fund STEAMTOWN? - go figure!
You make a host of critical remarks about NPS, unsustantiated claims and numerous personal demands, yet you are unwilling to spend a dime in support of steam perservation. There's a name for that.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
My feelings exactly.
In England and Germany, where operating historical steam (and diesel) operations are more common, most of the funding is through non-profit, charitable trusts. Perhaps their popularity is why they can attract funding and volunteers For example, the North Yorkshire Moors Railway in England attracts over 350,000 passengers annually. Steam and railroad history simply is less popular here.
ROBERT WILLISON Dr, its not as easy as you think. Your competing with thousands of grants. Let's make it easy, write the check, it be so simple.
And a lot of those grants require matching funds, which aren't always easily raised. And then they can get held in limbo in cases of state/federal budgets not being passed in a timely manner.
Just not the magic bullet answer.
As someone else pointed out NPS does not qualify for Federal grants, and other levels of gov't are not going to give the feds money. Private grants are often small amounts. NRHS grants are often $1000. How many grants are you going to need to rehab a steam loco?
The intern seems to have developed his enthusiasm for steam during the early days of the restoration of PM 1225. It is understandable but needs to be tempered with realism. He needs to grasp the fact that much of the railfan community and the world at large does not share his enthusiasm for steam. He might get more accomplished if he directed his efforts to the necessities of fund-raising.
At least the one loco is now back in operation; last time I saw it in person it looked worn out; now it looks and sounds brand new with great work and a great paint job. But I too miss, albeit at a distance, seeing at least a couple road steamers regularly pulling excursions in a variety of directions a substantial distance.
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