Spoony81 Whoever spotted the boxcar either didn't put on the handbrakes or left it to close to the switch and it was hit by a gondola http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2990059 This was right after the Ed Dickens and Co. screw up that led to flat spots on 844.
Whoever spotted the boxcar either didn't put on the handbrakes or left it to close to the switch and it was hit by a gondola
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2990059
This was right after the Ed Dickens and Co. screw up that led to flat spots on 844.
Unless the Steam Crew were moving cars about the facility without the use of a regular Yard Crew and locomotive - this would appear to be on the backs of the Yard Crew.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If I was part of the steam crew I would make sure one of my cars was spotted correctly and the hand brakes applied. Ed Dickens flew back instead of escorting the 949 back from the Streamliner event at Spencer last year when it recieved flat spots and sat at Kansas City for almost a year.
It's been two years since UP was pulling 4014 with a forklift, a few hundred feet at a time, using track sections, like a model railroad, through the L.A. County Fair parking lot, past the NHRA dragstrip at Pomona Calif.
I took a guided shop tour of UP's facility last month...our guide was Ed Dickens, who's very personable and knowledgable and gave us an excellent tour. They've done some work on 4014, but their main focus is fixing the boiler problems on #844 and getting it back on the rails. They're still on a 2019 timetable for the Big Boy so that's still over 3 years down the road.
If Western Maryland can get a 2-6-6-2 running in a year and a half, and the 611 crew finished with the J in less than a year, I'm sure UP (A proffessional crew, with proper equipment) can do the Big Boy in time.
UP has their priorities, and is getting stuff done, as has been shown.
to me, steam is to be fired by coal on land and bunker on ships. I wish they would fire the 4014 on coal, as the tender and all associated support stuff is designed for coal. I was as the B&O museum earlier this year and they have an Alleghany there. What a beautiful creation. I would love to see some billionare get that baby running too. I cant wait to see 4014 steaming down the line....even if it is oil fired.
This is the first time jumping in on this thread, so please bear with me! I have been following the comments for some time, and after my trip to the Cheyenne steam shop a month ago with a two hour private tour, felt it proper to add to the fray.
I have had the pleasure of meeting members of the steam crews going back to 1981, even sharing dinner with them. They were not perfect, by any means, but most loved the steam program as it was in the day although they were UP employees, and paid to do a job. Prior to any "official" steam program as established in the late 80's, it was run at the whim of UP. There were probably much stronger financial limitations on the Heritage Operations since there was no official budget. That obviously could have affected type and quality of maintainance done.
Fast forward to today and we found Ed Dickens to be charming to our group of five, which included an elderly former employee who worked on the 4000 class in the 50's and even showed us in detail the still existing Union switch and signal train control box on the tender and it's contents. Ed is an ex- military man, and a stickler to detail and has a steam background. The issue with swimming pool kits aside, there were obviously severe corrosion issues with the boiler and tender of 844. According to our host, while 844 had more time before the mandatory federal inspections and work, the corrosion problem demanded immediate attention if the engine was ever to go back on the rails. Issues like wrong carbon content of flexible stay bolts and caps flues, and other areas possibly unbeknown to others had to be addressed which were evidently not previously known. Pieces of corrosion in the boiler supposedly had even caused a piston ring failure at some point. Obviously, something wasn't working like it did back in the day. I have a souvenier flexible staybolt and cap from the bunch at his desk to show anyone the level of deterioration that had occurred, just as a sample. Supposedly, many caps came from 838 as opposed to new manufacture. No comment there as don't know enough to say if that was a cost cutting limitation previously or something else. Not a problem now.
Boiler blow downs are critical to boiler maintainance. Blowing chunks of broken off crud was taking it's toll. Proper draining and drying policies are supposed to also go into effect for the future as well to take maintainince into the 21st century.
All new staybolt blanks are checked for metal consistancy, all based on the original specks from the Flannery staybolt company and manufactured there in the shop. According to Ed, this information on Flannery can be found online to this day although I couldn't find it. All staybolts and caps are serial numbered. New dies have been manufactured to incredible tolerances. Many old machines, never supposedly used since the days of steam are being refurbished to do the jobs they were meant to do to keep as much work in house. I'm sure a lot of this is to ramp up for Big Boy, to do it right.
In conclusion, what worked years ago was taking it's toll on boilers originally meant to have perhaps a 20 year life span. In order for future generations to enjoy these relics of the past new ways are being adapted to insure the future. That is no slight to previous members of the steam crew. You have to adapt and that is what Dickens is trying to do. Old meets new had always had it's ups and downs. Instead of trying to pit old vs. new, we all need to throw our support behind the Heritage Program.
According to Ed, even after sitting 50 years, in many ways, 4014's water vessel was in better shape than either 844 or 3985. Thus tweaking the methods previously used are an absolute necessity for the future. There should be no politics in this. Methodology is based on modern scientific technology.
For sure, finishing 844 is the first order of business. Incredible improvements and upgrades are being done in the shop, mostly in anticipation of 4014's unique needs. All future steam repairs will benefit. Ed said without reservation, 3985 WILL operate, but it is third in line. There are serious firebox issues to be resolved on 3985. Metalurgy again has played a part in that.
The minute 844 leaves the shop 4014 gets full attention. The #4 driver was out of 844 when I was there and running gear work proceeds as a result of the repairs to the drop table, now functional again. Drop ceiling has been removed, along with years of pigeon crap, so a new overhead crane can be installed to benefit 4014.
For those who are not aware, Ed's marching orders come from an immediate superviser above him, and there has been involvement of company vp's as well giving full backing to the process. In the railroad world, these are people you do not say NO to! Hopefully, this all means a long future for glorious UP steam.
Thanks, Martin, for that detailed report, and please keep us informed on any news in the future.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Thank you for an excellent and comprehensive report!
Definitely good news... And thanks for the up date.
Well September has come and gone and still no hydro test on 844 let alone up and running. September of what year???
Calling it now that there will be no Big Boy in steam in 2019 unless a subcontractor is brought in to work NOW!!! The steam shop has shown they can't get 844 out in under two years when it was in running condition. How long will 4014 take when it is a larger more complicated engine that hasn't been in steam in 50 years?
Derek, I forgot to mention in my Cheyenne shop report above that Ed Dickens mentioned they were expecting boiler work to be done sometime this November. Then they will finish up the running gear and appliance rebuilds. Steam up for the spring. The work needed has been pretty extensive.
This would be the third for sure maybe 4th time a month has been said they will be ready to fire up. Break in runs were promised for Nov of 2014 at one point.
I truely hope you are right and that it is nearly ready but only time will tell. I know I'm not holding my breath.
Last winter, they said that they were hoping for this Fall but that 2016 was more realistic. When did they say November?
DEREK HOWELL Well September has come and gone and still no hydro test on 844 let alone up and running. September of what year??? Calling it now that there will be no Big Boy in steam in 2019 unless a subcontractor is brought in to work NOW!!! The steam shop has shown they can't get 844 out in under two years when it was in running condition. How long will 4014 take when it is a larger more complicated engine that hasn't been in steam in 50 years?
stdgauge DEREK HOWELL Well September has come and gone and still no hydro test on 844 let alone up and running. September of what year??? Calling it now that there will be no Big Boy in steam in 2019 unless a subcontractor is brought in to work NOW!!! The steam shop has shown they can't get 844 out in under two years when it was in running condition. How long will 4014 take when it is a larger more complicated engine that hasn't been in steam in 50 years? I agree. There are a lot of problems at the UP steam shop. One of the biggest is the lack of experience. The employee turnover is extremely high. I could go on, but just do a net search if you want more details. And realize that there are many very talented, proven steam locomotive experts that say the UP program is in bad hands.
I agree. There are a lot of problems at the UP steam shop. One of the biggest is the lack of experience. The employee turnover is extremely high. I could go on, but just do a net search if you want more details. And realize that there are many very talented, proven steam locomotive experts that say the UP program is in bad hands.
I've been to the UP steam shop twice this year, and personally talked to Mr Dickens, and I couldn't disagree more.
They are dealing with the boiler repairs to 844, which has been much more involved than originally thought, and doing a lot of repair and rebuilding of shop tools and equipment in prep for heavy work to start on the 4014.
stdgauge I agree. There are a lot of problems at the UP steam shop. One of the biggest is the lack of experience. The employee turnover is extremely high. I could go on, but just do a net search if you want more details. And realize that there are many very talented, proven steam locomotive experts that say the UP program is in bad hands.
In my opinion a large part of the 'delay' can be attributed to the steam operation following general UP practices on quality management. (The nominal UP individual overseeing Heritage operations has, herself, a pure quality-management background, which I think is indicative of UP corporate policy in this respect).
Therefore, there have been many teething problems and apparent 'reinventing of wheels' (and laughter by old-head steam people, who love to point out how steam locomotives are, and have always been, relatively imprecise machines that benefit from 'other than TQM maintenance priorities' shall we say). I think it may be relevant to mention that in something like this,the amount of confusion and delay historically may not reflect how activities will run once the TQM procedures are developed and running, and it may also be relevant to note that a great many of the policies and procedures Dickens et al. have been trying to implement are intended -- rightly or wrongly, and with no advance guarantee of success -- to reduce steam maintenance to an effort that good mechanical people with no distinctive competence in the 'secret lore' of big-steam technology can conduct with high assurance on a permanently ongoing basis. Since inmy opinion there is a very small cadre of younger steam enthusiasts who have taken the time and care to learn all the best practices from the folks who made steam restorations look so easy in the '60s and '70s, I have to think this is a reasonable thing for UP to take the time, blood, toil, tears, and sweat to try.
That doesn't excuse things like flatting the drivers or deflicting the boiler with corrosion and scale, or directing 300 psi blowdown off the side of the locomotive, of course. But it is easy to make the mistake of continuing to blame current efforts for old errors, and I am proceeding with the assumption that once the procedures are formalized the work on restoring 844 to service can and will proceed quickly and positively.
if it does not, or if we hear nothing but excuses come December, or if there are fresh horrors with 844 going forward, y'all can start the naysaying up again. But please keep it objective and directed to getting 844, then 4014, then 3985 back in proper long-term and safe running condition.
I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again.
The days when a tired steam locomotive could be brought into a backshop and emerge a month later brand-spankin' new are over. The machinery, supplies, manpower, and wherewithal just aren't there anymore. The work can still be done but it's going to take time, a lot more time than in the past.
So my advice to Big Boy fans, and I'm one of them, is relegate the 4014 restoration to the back of your mind. Forget it's there. Concern yourselves with other things. It'll be ready when it's ready, and not before. Tormenting yourself with the minutia of the restoration won't help anyone.
Sometimes I think the wisest steam restorers are the ones who do it on the QT, and without fanfare, and then spring the finished product on the railfan world. The folks at Henry Fords Greenfield Village who brought that old 4-4-0 back to life spring to mind. They did it in "secret" and then revealed the finished engine with a fanfare. "Hey! Look at what we did!"
Again, forget about it. 2019 will be here before you know it. THEN we'll see what kind of a shindig Union Pacific has planned for the sesquicentennial of the Golden Spike. Since UP is a company with a good sense of its history I imagine it'll be something to see!
Well said fire lock. She'll be done when she is finished and not before. Lots of things go wrong during a major restoration. They may not be readily apparent or discussed, but they will be delt with. Time lines are generally ambitious and optimistic.
Thechief66 stdgauge DEREK HOWELL Well September has come and gone and still no hydro test on 844 let alone up and running. September of what year??? Calling it now that there will be no Big Boy in steam in 2019 unless a subcontractor is brought in to work NOW!!! The steam shop has shown they can't get 844 out in under two years when it was in running condition. How long will 4014 take when it is a larger more complicated engine that hasn't been in steam in 50 years? I agree. There are a lot of problems at the UP steam shop. One of the biggest is the lack of experience. The employee turnover is extremely high. I could go on, but just do a net search if you want more details. And realize that there are many very talented, proven steam locomotive experts that say the UP program is in bad hands. I've been to the UP steam shop twice this year, and personally talked to Mr Dickens, and I couldn't disagree more. They are dealing with the boiler repairs to 844, which has been much more involved than originally thought, and doing a lot of repair and rebuilding of shop tools and equipment in prep for heavy work to start on the 4014.
"Old steam experts"? looks more like the fraternal order of internet trolls to me. I think it's interesting that most of the people who have actually been to the shop recently (and didn't already have an opinion on the matter) have come away with a very positive impression of the goings on.
As far as I can tell, UP doesn't have a giant suggestion box where they look for input on their business. We're talking about a public relations program, and if I were some higher up bean counter type in UP and I read this or almost any other blog on this subject, I'd be likely to conclude that the massive public relations investment in this program is having mixed results. My point: all of this trash talking is likely to have a far greater negative impact on the health of this program than a few flat spots or some rusted stay bolts. If someone thinks they can do ed's job better, they should go apply. Otherwise, please realize that this isn't a democracy, we don't get our say, and UP is under no obligation to do this at all. When marketing campaigns create more controversy than good, they get cancelled.
Well said Snarematt!
Well stated. We already have four of the big seven railroads that for the most part want nothing to do with steam. If NS falls to CP it will be five. Meanwhile, one railroad is still willing to own, maintain and operate three 70+-year-old steam locomotives. And not just popguns, but each the equivalent of a 16 inch 50 caliber battleship gun for their category, all being both mountain climbers and fast runners to boot. As for me, I will wait patiently, purchase occasionally off their Web site to support the program, and then be thankful and applaud heartily when they next roll out of the roundhouse, because no matter when those days come, they will be good days indeed.
I can remember visiting the UP steam shop in 1968 just 4 years after the last of the steam era. In 1968 it was a marginal operation! Yes they had UP 8444 running as a public relations locomotive - but it was amazing they were able to keep it going.
The roundhouse was in-tact and so was the huge locomotive backshop which housed 3895 Challenger and 4023 Big Boy and the lost 2-10-2 Texas type UP 5511. But the gigantic overhead crane was the ONLY THING that remained in that entire Cheyenne steam backshop built to overhaul at least 40 locomotives - it was entirely and completely empty!
I can remember thinking at the time - "Why wouldn't they have saved at least a rudementary of tools - yes, UP 8444 was living on a corporate good wish and a prayer.
Since that time during the so called "UP great steam train era" they tore down half the backshop and roundhouse. They put 4023 outside to be destroyed by the elements and they began operating in a very small space with very little equipment.
For crying out loud they couldn't even turn locomotive drive wheels and had to take UP 844's flat drivers put them in a gondola and send the to the Strassburg RR in Pennsylvania!
Ed Dickens may be the target of much fan abuse but at least he is presiding over a complete backshop rebuild including massive tooling including the overhead crane and the planned operation of at least three steam railroad giants on an continuing basis.
I foresee the day when UP could contract out the restoration of any steam locomotive in America if they wanted! With newly acquired knowledge and expertise!
I think we need to give Union Pacific the benefit of the doubt here. I realize when Ed Dickens does his videos, it's kinda for the "new age generation," that never saw steam operate in the historic period - and he kinda makes steam loccomotive overhaul look like he's running NASA instead of "beatin your life out with a hammer pounding on drive rods!"
For crying out loud Union Pacific just double tracked half the American continent - how much does this truly modern railroad need to bleed to convince doubters?
Furthermore take a lesson about life - the "romanticism about steam" - the romanticism about anything - is really all about the big expectations we have anyway - because nothing ever lives up to what our dreams would be like.
Doc
Dr DThey put 4023 outside to be destroyed by the elements and they began operating in a very small space with very little equipment.
Frusturating to think about, since 30 years ago or so, she'd of been in the best shape of the bunch. Now, she rivals the example at Steamtown for being in the worst shape and was at the bottom of the list when Union Pacific initiated this project.
I'm glad the 3985 escaped after a few years of outside display in Cheyenne. I think she only was static after being kicked out of the roundhouse for 4 years before work started on resurrecting her.
Otherwise, she'd be in the same shape today.
I hear you Leo!
And do you want to know the greatest IRONY of them all! UP 4023 BIG BOY had the lowest mileage of any of the 4-8-8-4 locomotives. The railroad wanted to save one for possible operation so they chose UP 4023 and overhauled her to good condition - then stored her inside the Cheyenne backshop to await future events to unfold.
UP 5011 2-10-2 starred in the company movie "Last of the Giants" then was ordered scrapped - they cut her piston rods with the oxy-acetylene torch! Some junior executive, shop forman, somebody just never filled out her paperwork and sent her to scrap! So UP 5511 just sits there today in the backshop with no record of her existance on paper - at least there wasn't for years - waiting for the future and untold events.
So which engine makes it into possible operating condition today? The giant Big Boy UP 4023 groomed for destiny? The lowly freight drag hog UP 5511 Texas type with one foot in the melting furnace? Shades of the race horse "Seabiscuit!"
As fates would have it - misguided managment puts UP 4023 outside to waste in the rain and weather and UP 5511 hiding in ignominity in the backshop corner comes through to be a real candidate for future restoration!
Whenever I think about this, I also think I'll turn up a few Woodie Guthrie ballads - in honor of UP 5511 - songs like
"This Land Is Your Land" - "Hobo Lullaby" - "Worried Man Blues" - "Goin Down The Road Feeling Bad" - "Hard Travelin" - and "Pastures of Plenty!"
- and dream of the day I will see UP 5511 on a drag freight with a few hobos - myself included - riding the boxcars - surely UP 5511 would accomplish something here that the mighty UP 844 would not - to be a lowly drag freight engine of the Great Depression era!
Yes, I forsee a time when UP steam excursions will not be pulled by sleek passenger engines with all air conditioned coaches - Yes, I forsee a time when a "new age" steam excursion will have paying passengers to just ride in the boxcars and the open gondolas pulled at 20 to 40 mph by UP 5511 or UP 9000 with a hot coffee pot in the Union Pacific wooden caboose - with a hobo guitar player struming "This is Your Land This is my Land!"
UP 4023 vs. UP 5511 - as fates would have it! Victory not always to fastest, the biggest or the most deserving - that's IRONY my friend! It's the experience of the human heart where nothing really makes sense but just being a falliable human is the only thing that makes sense!
I applaud both the NS and UP programs and applaud BNSF's allowing others to steam on their lines. I hope all this continues, and generates far more applause than criticism.
Dr D Yes, I forsee a time when UP steam excursions will not be pulled by sleek passenger engines with all air conditioned coaches - Yes, I forsee a time when a "new age" steam excursion will have paying passengers to just ride in the boxcars and the open gondolas pulled at 20 to 40 mph by UP 5511 or UP 9000 with a hot coffee pot in the Union Pacific wooden caboose - with a hobo guitar player struming "This is Your Land This is my Land!" UP 4023 vs. UP 5511 - as fates would have it! Victory not always to fastest, the biggest or the most deserving - that's IRONY my friend! It's the experience of the human heart where nothing really makes sense but just being a falliable human is the only thing that makes sense! Doc
Good luck in finding Depression Era freight cars for your steam powered drag freight to haul.
I'd love to see even minor updates, anything.
Here is a minor update on both 844 & 4014. Rebuilt brake control & stand. Any one know what the brake type is ( such as 26L ) ?
http://www.up.com/aboutup/community/community_ties/steam-update-2-26.htm
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