I would like more information on building a new Penny T-1 and it's sponsors ?
Post Deleted by Member who wrote it.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
http://www.prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/
I'm wondering where they will run it to set the speed record.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Odd choice when far more successful designs like New York Central's famous classes of Hudsons are extinct.
Or if it had to be a Pennsylvania Railroad model, a J1 2-10-4 which was a well loved and successful class of Pennsylvania steam power that sadly saw all its members go to scrap. Without knowing the state of original blueprints for the design which could make all the difference, I'm sure it would be significantly cheaper to construct, would be more economical to run and maintain, would have a far greater potential territory where it could run if allowed, and would be able to handle modern passenger excursions in today's environment.
Nobody is going to let what they're dreaming of ever show its potential if it's somehow actually built despite the disorganization of the North American rail preservation community compared to Britain. What it would likely be allowed to do would be like using a Concorde on a scenic slow speed excursion just above its stall speed over the Grand Canyon...
That said, I'm all for it and wish them the best of luck.
Paul of Covington I'm wondering where they will run it to set the speed record.
As noted previously, the fast loop at TTCI Pueblo is one location.
This is not the project whose raison d'etre is setting a speed record - that's Project 130 with the ATSF Hudson 3463 from Topeka. Most of the high-speed 'testing' required for the T1 project can be handled either with multiphysics simulation or on an instrumented test plant or dynamometer. There are very few if any places on working Class I railroads where it would be safe, let alone 'permissible', to run a reciprocating locomotive in excess of 125 mph.
Did the T1 use poppet valves? This may be off topic, but how many poppet valve equipped steam locomotives are left? This is yet one more challenge to bringing one of these engines back.
The T1's did use poppet valves and were the most notable example of their use in North America.
I thought that Baldwin 60000 might've been an early domestic example, but upon checking, it wasn't so equipped. So I don't believe that any of the few examples that received Poppet valves in the US have survived to the present day.
The production T1s used Franklin type A oscillating-cam poppet valves, and by 1948 PRR and FRS engineers had developed solutions for most of the problems experienced with them ... at least, the ones that were amenable to solution. One locomotive, 5500, was rebuilt with the rotary-cam type B system, and a different valve layout.
The notable poppet-valve survivor in the United States is C&O 490, the streamlined Pacific. We've discussed ex-USATC 611/2728, which uses an interesting variant of rotary-cam poppet valve gear featuring 'automatic cutoff control'.
Of course, the famous Duke of Gloucester, BR 71000, uses British Caprotti poppet gear, and there are several other British locomotives that have one or another 'flavor'.
There is no particular challenge involved in re-creating a workable poppet valve gear. Admittedly there are a large number of 'twiddly' parts to be constructed, but drawings for type A exist to the extent Ed Woodings successfully built a working replica from them, and there are adequate drawings, plus the equipment on USATC 611 (which is 'right-sized' for one-half a duplex), to duplicate a functioning version of the rotary-cam system.
Have a look at the "Classic Trains" site and go to their Forum. Look for "5550", there's a good T1 discussion going on there you might find interesting.
Much of the enthusiasm for re-creating a T1 stems from the A1 Steam Project in Great Briton. As a point of comparison: Recently the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society announced their plans for running the NKP 765. They hope to travel 6000 miles by year's end. The A1 ran over 25,000 miles in just its first two years of service.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.CarletonMuch of the enthusiasm for re-creating a T1 stems from the A1 Steam Project in Great Britain.
Before any criticism of the differences between British and American steam operations support gets started up again, the Trust is well aware of the difficulties inherent in using a straight "A1 Trust" developmental or financial model, and is also well aware of the many differences in operational policy, more 'capital-intensive' operations, lower level of detailed support, etc. that would characterize American operations.
In my opinion, and not in any way speaking for the Trust, I consider the development and planning model used for the restoration of the Duke of Gloucester (BR 71000), the only operating locomotive of similar sophistication to a T1 (sorry, 18 201 fans) to be much more relevant. The point of greatest importance is to work through and address all the design 'difficulties' and then, as possible, build the locomotive. Operations will follow, as interest develops, and I suspect the interest that will actually develop in the United States concerning this rather attractive locomotive will become more substantial than might be presently expected. There are some interesting possibilities for a locomotive designed to the standards this one will meet, but that remains strictly an issue for the future to decide. In my opinion, even if the locomotive never operates a significant-distance trip, even if it remains (as one RyPN poster said} a Concorde flying short tourist excursions over the Grand Canyon, it will still be a reconstruction of some of the most innovative thinking that came out of American steam design -- and was lost too soon.
Firelock76 Have a look at the "Classic Trains" site and go to their Forum. Look for "5550", there's a good T1 discussion going on there you might find interesting.
I looked at Classic Trains and the "5550" discussion has vanished -- where is it?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Overmod D.CarletonMuch of the enthusiasm for re-creating a T1 stems from the A1 Steam Project in Great Britain. Before any criticism of the differences between British and American steam operations support gets started up again, the Trust is well aware of the difficulties inherent in using a straight "A1 Trust" developmental or financial model, and is also well aware of the many differences in operational policy, more 'capital-intensive' operations, lower level of detailed support, etc. that would characterize American operations. In my opinion, and not in any way speaking for the Trust, I consider the development and planning model used for the restoration of the Duke of Gloucester (BR 71000), the only operating locomotive of similar sophistication to a T1 (sorry, 18 201 fans) to be much more relevant. The point of greatest importance is to work through and address all the design 'difficulties' and then, as possible, build the locomotive. Operations will follow, as interest develops, and I suspect the interest that will actually develop in the United States concerning this rather attractive locomotive will become more substantial than might be presently expected. There are some interesting possibilities for a locomotive designed to the standards this one will meet, but that remains strictly an issue for the future to decide. In my opinion, even if the locomotive never operates a significant-distance trip, even if it remains (as one RyPN poster said} a Concorde flying short tourist excursions over the Grand Canyon, it will still be a reconstruction of some of the most innovative thinking that came out of American steam design -- and was lost too soon.
I posted this question on the "5550" thread that appears to have disappeared.
You have the restoration of a locomotive, even something as sophisticated as the Duke of Gloucester. You have the blueprint building of a completely new locomotive based on an existing design -- the locomotive Tornado based on Peppercorn's A1 class. Then you have a new locomotive design, based on Stephenson principles, not meant as a reproduction of any particular steam locomotive, incorporating the Chapelon/Porta/Wardale improvements, and meant to be maximally compatible with the railroad operating environment for that particular locomotive. The new Swiss rack locomotives are along those lines as is the British 5AT Project, which is "suspended."
Where does this project fall on that continuum? On the "5500" thread, was there mention of conjugating the divided drive? Are there other improvements or upgrades to the T1 people have in mind?
It's still there, it's just a little further down the page. I just looked at it 5 minutes ago (written at 12:10 eastern standard time, Friday April 11))
Paul Milenkovic > You have the restoration of a locomotive, even something as sophisticated as the Duke of Gloucester. You have the blueprint building of a completely new locomotive based on an existing design -- the locomotive Tornado based on Peppercorn's A1 class. Then you have a new locomotive design, based on Stephenson principles, not meant as a reproduction of any particular steam locomotive, incorporating the Chapelon/Porta/Wardale improvements, and meant to be maximally compatible with the railroad operating environment for that particular locomotive. The new Swiss rack locomotives are along those lines as is the British 5AT Project, which is "suspended." Where does this project fall on that continuum?
> You have the restoration of a locomotive, even something as sophisticated as the Duke of Gloucester. You have the blueprint building of a completely new locomotive based on an existing design -- the locomotive Tornado based on Peppercorn's A1 class. Then you have a new locomotive design, based on Stephenson principles, not meant as a reproduction of any particular steam locomotive, incorporating the Chapelon/Porta/Wardale improvements, and meant to be maximally compatible with the railroad operating environment for that particular locomotive. The new Swiss rack locomotives are along those lines as is the British 5AT Project, which is "suspended."
Where does this project fall on that continuum?
This is a fair question, and the 'precise' answer to it has not entirely been decided yet.
The general assumption at the Trust is that most of the design will be a replication of the T1 with rotary-cam valve gear. This, for example, is the reason why a lateral-acting independent brake has not beed adopted by the Trust, even though proposed.
On the other hand, it should be capable of poerating at minimal cost with maximal reliability, be designed for easy support on the road, be highly reliable in service (and have service degrade gracefully where possible) and be operable effectively by a wide range of personnel. These things will require a range of detail-design modifications, some of which will affect the design in nontrivial ways. But they are NOT an atttempt to wring third-generation steam performance out of a reciprocating locomotive.
Most of the modifications to the T1 are intended to make it more reliable in normal operation -- that, for example, is the principal purpose of any conjugation scheme. Most of the common "toids" and "NNN"s (to quote from a memorable series of RyPN threads) have the firm impression that the T1 failed as a locomotive because it was impossibly, intractably slippery. That does not appear to have been the case, historically -- but rather than lead with that argument, I think it makes better sense to proceed on the assumption that if we have a number of good ways to control slipping, both at low and high speed, and we do the detail design work for them, we can be assured by the time construction begins that the result will NOT be destructively slippery... under any combination of circumstances.
The one area where things are expected to be very different is in the firebox size increase and in better water-leg circulation. This is actually a reversion to the (approximate) dimensions of the original demonstrator duplex proposed by Baldwin, and its net effect on the locomotive esthetics is not expected to be negative. There is very little question that 92' is adequate for a locomotive of this size if high-quality fuel is employed, and the fireman knows his job well. There is also very little question that, in well-established circumstances, there will be excessive generation of black smoke and carryover when those conditions aren't met...
On the "5500" thread, was there mention of conjugating the divided drive? Are there other improvements or upgrades to the T1 people have in mind?
I assume this is the thread over in the 'Classic Trains' magazine's forum. I'll take that up over there.
Overmod, what serious discussion has taken place, to your knowledge, about spending a few thousand up-front dollars on a good marketing expert? I don't think anyone can fault the British for their obvious success, as you seem to agree, but this side of the pond people like to be hand-held...a lot. They expect some seduction...er...courting. As a fan of the Canadian Broadcasting Corp's "Under the Influence" with Terry O'Reilly, I have learned to appreciate how well-developed is that topic, both academically and in the way of application, and that successful enterprises of all kinds look seriously to what marketing does for them...and can do.
-Crandell
selectorOvermod, what serious discussion has taken place, to your knowledge, about spending a few thousand up-front dollars on a good marketing expert?
Good thought.
One of the very first people who joined the Trust is a marketing expert, and much of what they are following at this stage is in accord with input from him. There is no question that proper marketing techniques will be developed and applied as the project evolves.
I hope they try to make as many allies across the pond as possible. Not only for their experiences and industry connections, but British steam enthusiast are a dedicated group whose interest doesn't end at their borders.
But of course if there's any chance of this happening, these folks will already have this resource in mind.
Thank-you both for your comments. I am sure there are more ardent fans of the T1 than I, but I haven't met them. I hope I live long enough to get up close 'n personal with this eventuality.
Not that it matters, but I also favour the 611, and have contributed to its restoration. A body should be concrete in the fruition of his dreams.
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