With all the talk of a possible Bigboy rebuild.I was thinking of one of my favorite engines the DM&IR 2-8-8-4.There are three left.The one in the Duluth transportation museum in in good shape.I think it is missing pistons,but it runs every 20min (it is jacked up and runs from a electric motor).Could it run again?Has more TE than the bigboy and would out pull it at low speeds (63 in drivers)and was designed to lug Iron ore on grades.
Just a idea or maybe N&W Y6b I think there is one left.
Mntrain With all the talk of a possible Bigboy rebuild.I was thinking of one of my favorite engines the DM&IR 2-8-8-4.There are three left.The one in the Duluth transportation museum in in good shape.I think it is missing pistons,but it runs every 20min (it is jacked up and runs from a electric motor).Could it run again?Has more TE than the bigboy and would out pull it at low speeds (63 in drivers)and was designed to lug Iron ore on grades. Just a idea or maybe N&W Y6b I think there is one left.
Union Pacific has VERY deep pockets and can fund the Big Boy restoration if they so choose.....
Where is the funding going to come from for a Yellowstone restoration? I'd love to see NASA put together and launch a Saturn V rocket (the full three stage Moon shot version) but I wouldn't be so happy getting the bill for it...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
(This was just a idea),which means It would be nice,but I do not believe it will happen.
Comments like these are usually just people thinking out-loud and hopping to start a conversation about the possibility of these restorations most people know that in most cases there is little if any chance of seeing these engine running again.We just like steam locomotives and not looking for the financial roadblocks of a restoration at this time.
Just a guy who like trains
Old steam locomotives are making a big comeback. I don't think I have seen so much activity in my entire life with the rebuilding of these old steam locomotives. This is especially true with the locomotives sitting in public parks. I think steam locomotives sitting in parks is going to be a thing of the past. It seems I am constantly reading about people removing locomotives out of parks to restore them.
Everything has been getting bigger and bigger and more expensive. Airplanes, locomotives, buildings, ships. New locomotives are quickly approaching 4 million a piece. Technology in building and repairing has also grown by leaps and bounds.
So why does that matter to what we are talking about? It matters because asking for a million or two million for a project is starting to look like chump change. I recently read that it costs around 3-4 million just to make a bike trail one mile long. Cities issuing grants for a half a million are hardly even questioned anymore. Federal grants (like those for the wind power) have gone way over 300 million to just a single company.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear in the next few years that a Yellowstone would be restored to operating condition. One of the good things about park locomotives is that they eventually fall into such bad shape that they either have to be cosmetically restored, moved, or sold. Many people figure if they have to spend all the time and money painting it, they might as well restore it.
In the big picture restoring and running a steam locomotive isn't much different then starting any other business. If you want to build and operate your own restaurant it will set you back probably a million and a half. Even franchises often require half to three quarters of a million dollars as a start up costs.
The days of rebuilding and operating steam locomotives for fun or for historical reasons is long gone. Now they are business decisions which involve millions of dollars. The rebuilding and operation of a Yellowstone would make good business sense. If you had a dedicated train I don't think you would have much trouble clearing over $750,000 a year or more.
Does anybody Know the actual mechanical shape #227 in the Duluth Museum is in from a restoration stand point? Cosmetically it looks excellent.
Steam locomotives of that type are very unlikely to be restored for operation, ever. It's not that it couldn't be done, but because there is no practicable place to run them. They were designed for hauling very heavy trains at low speeds on heavy duty track. So they will be too heavy for the typical short line or museum operation, too slow to mix with traffic on a main line, and completely overpowered for any passenger train it would haul.
Think about acquiring an old city transit bus to park in your driveway, just to use for local errands such as weekly grocery shopping and visiting the hobby shop on a Friday night. Yes, it could be done, and for a week or so you might enjoy the notoriety. But in a very short time it will be stored elsewhere and a small car used instead.
The two groups of steam that are prime candidates for restoration are the small locomotives suitable for tourist roads, and the large higher drivered locomotives originally designed for fast passenger and freight trains on the main line.
John
Thomas 9011 Old steam locomotives are making a big comeback. I don't think I have seen so much activity in my entire life with the rebuilding of these old steam locomotives. This is especially true with the locomotives sitting in public parks. I think steam locomotives sitting in parks is going to be a thing of the past. It seems I am constantly reading about people removing locomotives out of parks to restore them. Everything has been getting bigger and bigger and more expensive. Airplanes, locomotives, buildings, ships. New locomotives are quickly approaching 4 million a piece. Technology in building and repairing has also grown by leaps and bounds. So why does that matter to what we are talking about? It matters because asking for a million or two million for a project is starting to look like chump change. I recently read that it costs around 3-4 million just to make a bike trail one mile long. Cities issuing grants for a half a million are hardly even questioned anymore. Federal grants (like those for the wind power) have gone way over 300 million to just a single company. I wouldn't be surprised to hear in the next few years that a Yellowstone would be restored to operating condition. One of the good things about park locomotives is that they eventually fall into such bad shape that they either have to be cosmetically restored, moved, or sold. Many people figure if they have to spend all the time and money painting it, they might as well restore it. In the big picture restoring and running a steam locomotive isn't much different then starting any other business. If you want to build and operate your own restaurant it will set you back probably a million and a half. Even franchises often require half to three quarters of a million dollars as a start up costs. The days of rebuilding and operating steam locomotives for fun or for historical reasons is long gone. Now they are business decisions which involve millions of dollars. The rebuilding and operation of a Yellowstone would make good business sense. If you had a dedicated train I don't think you would have much trouble clearing over $750,000 a year or more.
You are probably correct if you could fing trackage to run such a beast on. Most track of that quality is host to large amounts of freight traffic and most Class 1 and regional operations are not going to want to host a "tourist train" on their lines for a cut of that 750K...
1 at the Duluth museum. Where are the other two? I remember seeing one at a town north of Duluth back in the 80s but forgot which town that is.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Protor, MN this is were the CN/DM&IR yard is, close to Duluth and Two harbors ,MN north of Duluth,both of these are outside.
It ran when it was shut off and it was cleaned out and drained. It then went into storage for about 10 years at the roundhouse in Proctor. The only damage done then was to cut the coal auger so that the tender could be separated. In 1973 or so it was moved under tow to the museum in Duluth where it has been indoors ever since. There it was put up on blocks and modified so an electric motor could move the wheels every half hour or so.
As I understand it the engine is 100% roller bearing, so journals and driver bearings shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't be surprised if the parts removed for display were stored somewhere, possibly for eventual restoration.
Hard to believe that when Baldwin was going out of the steam locomotive business in the early 50's the Missabe bought enough parts to keep the things going until 1970 or so. Unfortunately all those parts were scrapped when diesels came a few years later.
Restoration would be possible, but man, how much money would it take to restore it and keep it running? Small locomotives burn through a lot of money. Big ones would need very deep pockets to bankroll them. There might even be an issue that even CN on a very well kept up former Missabe may not want that thing out on their rails.
Mntrain Does anybody Know the actual mechanical shape #227 in the Duluth Museum is in from a restoration stand point? Cosmetically it looks excellent.
I live in Proctor, I have been active in the Museum where 227 is in Duluth somewhat since before it was a museum. The 227 is in very good condition and everything said here about it being stored in proctor from the time it's fire was dropped for the last time till it was moved into the museum. is true
The problem is as was already said money. The boiler would require a complete overhaul to be safe and meet requirements of various government agencies. On a boiler that big, it would be in millions not hundreds of thousands of dollars to remove all the tubes, inspect and test all the flue sheets, firebox and other parts. Way beyond any museum project. The old NP Prairie (2435) that was displayed at the Duluth Zoo is getting a cosmetic refurbishment and that is going to cost more than a nice house with a lot of volunteer help.
The saddest thing that happened to the forth Yellowstone preserved was the original engine at Two Harbors Minnesota. That engine was put on display in the early 60's and after about a decade of display, it needed to be freshened up. The DM&IR felt responsible because it was rusting (sheet metal over the lagging) and decided it was cheaper to take the forth Yellowstone they had in the Two Harbors roundhouse and replace the first one - which they then scrapped to pay for the fixing up of the forth (presently displayed) engine. Sad they destroyed the last one of the four around 1970 if I remember right.
The one in Proctor (three blocks from my house) has a wide vision caboose (DM&IR 200) behind it and may get an older ore car in the future. That engine has had all the lagging and outer sheet metal removed to expose the boiler shell itself. That was covered with a very expensive epoxy paint a few years ago. That engine looks good but would be super expensive to move and rebuild.
I guess if I want to see a Yellowstone run I will have to buy the brass model
Actually, MTH makes a very nice O gauge model complete with very life-like sound, smoke and whistle. Not the same as the real thing but very nice.
http://mthtrains.com/content/20-3378-1
They were released in 2009 - $1,300.00 - they are not in stock from what I can tell anywhere but they do show up on eBay from time to time.
Speaking about the cost of restoring ANY steam locomotive, does anyone have any info on the Pennsy K-4 that was taken off Horse-shoe curve? Last I heard several years ago was that it was in pieces on the erection room floor.
Thanks
You refer to K-4s No. 1361. It's boiler is, at last report, in the shop at the East Broad Top, Rock Hill Furnace, Pa. The tender is at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona, Pa. As far as I know, the rest of the parts are in storage in Altoona also. All the gauges, valves and whatnot that make up the back head, are on display in the museum. It was moved from Steam(less) town a couple of years ago. Prospects are not bright. It became a political football, with finger pointing all 'round. There has been talk on it being "stuffed and mounted" at Altoona, or restored to run at low press. on a short track at the museum. Sad. There is a FB page. PRR K-4s locomotive 1361.
Tim
Rikers Yard You refer to K-4s No. 1361. It's boiler is, at last report, in the shop at the East Broad Top, Rock Hill Furnace, Pa. The tender is at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona, Pa. As far as I know, the rest of the parts are in storage in Altoona also. All the gauges, valves and whatnot that make up the back head, are on display in the museum. It was moved from Steam(less) town a couple of years ago. Prospects are not bright. It became a political football, with finger pointing all 'round. There has been talk on it being "stuffed and mounted" at Altoona, or restored to run at low press. on a short track at the museum. Sad. There is a FB page. PRR K-4s locomotive 1361. Tim
How about run it for very short distances on compressed air? I heard that "live steam" hobbiests do this all the time if they don't want to qualify a boiler. On compressed air, you don't have the risk of a boiler explosion, the power of which comes from large heat capacity of the pressurized water in the boiler.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul Milenkovic Rikers Yard You refer to K-4s No. 1361. It's boiler is, at last report, in the shop at the East Broad Top, Rock Hill Furnace, Pa. The tender is at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona, Pa. As far as I know, the rest of the parts are in storage in Altoona also. All the gauges, valves and whatnot that make up the back head, are on display in the museum. It was moved from Steam(less) town a couple of years ago. Prospects are not bright. It became a political football, with finger pointing all 'round. There has been talk on it being "stuffed and mounted" at Altoona, or restored to run at low press. on a short track at the museum. Sad. There is a FB page. PRR K-4s locomotive 1361. Tim How about run it for very short distances on compressed air? I heard that "live steam" hobbiests do this all the time if they don't want to qualify a boiler. On compressed air, you don't have the risk of a boiler explosion, the power of which comes from large heat capacity of the pressurized water in the boiler.
Does anyone know the approximate cost for the restoration of 4294?
Blue Alert! We're at Blue Alert! Aw crap, it's a nondescript GEVO... Cancel Blue Alert!
BNSFandSP Does anyone know the approximate cost for the restoration of 4294?
Considering that SP 4294 was on display in the elements for a long time, restoration to operating condition is probably not realistic.
IIRC a DMIR Yellowstone could go around 60 MPH so would be fast enough to use in excursion service, just as UP's Challenger is used on mainline excursion trains. The problem I've always heard (besides cost) are issues like track clearances. Someone years back pointed out that to use a Yellowstone in the Duluth area would require a lot of trackwork because of it's large size and overhang of the boiler.
No doubt a Yellowstone could reach that speed. That does not mean that it should. When CPR dieselised its operation through the Rockies in 1952 some of the 2-10-4 "Selkirks" were only 3 years old and the whole class was transferred to the nearby prairie lines. Speeds were faster but the sweet spot for their dynamic balance was unchanged. Both the track structure and their own bearings took a real pounding. Maintenance costs soared for both. While I don't know the driver dimensions for the UP and DMIR engines, I think you will find the UP designed the Challenger for a much faster type of service.
Steam locomotive design often was custom tailored for specific assignments. That specialization meant they could be completely inappropriate for most other uses when the original need disappeared. Smaller engines such as 10-wheelers, Pacifics or Mikados tended to be more general purpose. That greater versatility meant they were often what closed out the steam era on each railroad.
DM&IR Yellowstone had 63" drivers - they were capable of 60 miles per hour. One did pull an excursion towards the end of steam on the DM&IR.
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