What about the NP's 2626? First roller bearing locomotive, tested all over the US, set a standard for Northern design, changed the face of steam locomotive design.
Timken 1111 (aka NP 2626) has its claim to fame as the first all-roller-bearing locomotive. It was primarily a promotional tool for Timken that happened to be a well-performing 4-8-4. I would seriously doubt that it can be restored to operating condition without spending more cash than is reasonably obtainable.
I think the OP's thought was that a `built from the ground up' duplicate of Timkin 1111 could be built.
So, I imagine, could a `built from the keel up' copy of PT109.
So the question then becomes, why? No railroad has the slightest interest in steam at this time. Private funding for locomotive rebuilds is spread across a number of projects now - almost all of them seriously under-funded. With politicials attacking every kind of spending it's a safe bet that no public money will be forthcoming. So why would another steam locomotive project (glorifying technology three quarters of a century out of date) even be considered.
As a single individual, I prefer to look to the future. Let's spend that money colonizing the Moon - and then onward to Mars.
If that puts me out of step with the `We want more steam, NOW!' crowd, so be it.
Chuck
Why? Thats easy! Because we *** well want to! Going to the Moon or Mars or Alpha Centaury 6 doesn't mean we can't do other things at the same time. Oh Ye Of Little Vision. If you feel that way maybe you should find another hobby rather than watching outdated technolgy do it's thing.
Tim
You know, this "should we build this.." "should we restore that..." reminds me of something the late, great Jim Boyd said: "Will a Big Boy ever run again? Of course! Why? Like Mount Everest, because it's there!"
Keep dreaming and hoping folks, you never know.
Rikers Yard Why? Thats easy! Because we *** well want to! Going to the Moon or Mars or Alpha Centaury 6 doesn't mean we can't do other things at the same time. Oh Ye Of Little Vision. If you feel that way maybe you should find another hobby rather than watching outdated technolgy do it's thing. Tim
As Tonto was heard saying to the Lone Ranger, "Who, `We," paleface?"
The `On to the stars' faction (Star Trek subdivision) just finished a convention here in Sin City. If all the money those folks spent on costumes, travel, hotel space and events was dumped on a new - old steam loco it would be built just as fast as the parts could be fabricated and assembled.
I did not attend. From my point of view in the Confederation Universe, `Star Trek' is old technology.
New York Central steam was glorious - when it was in revenue service. So was JNR steam. But those days are history. The future is ours - if we don't get distracted by things that won't advance us into it.
(Incidentally, I saw those locos in revenue service. Did you?)
Chuck (occasional science fiction author)
tomikawaTT Rikers Yard Why? Thats easy! Because we *** well want to! Going to the Moon or Mars or Alpha Centaury 6 doesn't mean we can't do other things at the same time. Oh Ye Of Little Vision. If you feel that way maybe you should find another hobby rather than watching outdated technolgy do it's thing. Tim As Tonto was heard saying to the Lone Ranger, "Who, `We," paleface?" The `On to the stars' faction (Star Trek subdivision) just finished a convention here in Sin City. If all the money those folks spent on costumes, travel, hotel space and events was dumped on a new - old steam loco it would be built just as fast as the parts could be fabricated and assembled. I did not attend. From my point of view in the Confederation Universe, `Star Trek' is old technology. New York Central steam was glorious - when it was in revenue service. So was JNR steam. But those days are history. The future is ours - if we don't get distracted by things that won't advance us into it. (Incidentally, I saw those locos in revenue service. Did you?) Chuck (occasional science fiction author) No I didn't see NYC steam and I've never been to Japan, nor did I see UP's turbines. So the younger fans are to be denied even thinking about "new" steam, so as not to be distracted from the future. But I beleve we can both and so much more. A little distraction can be a good thing, Without some newly built steam locos it won't be long till there are no steam locos running. They will all be worn out and unsafe to run. What about Sieaira No. 3, Just about done with a compleat rebuild, with a new welded boiler. Is it still No.3 or a new loco with an old number? Should she have been "stuffed and mounted"? It's not "all or nothing" there is time and money to do both and more. We {us earthlings} need a presance in space , at least a moon base, there are dangers that can only be handled from the "high ground" and our eggs need to be in more than one basket. Tim (science fiction reader, long live Larry Niven)
As a functional working replica : a sure choice .
For sure .
And a pretty heavy piece in American RR tech history , too .
Yet - not exactly the nicest of Northerns , wasn't it ?
( There you are : one only has to post a proposal and it's split minds starting !
Well - we're just discussing and ventilating and - maybe - dreaming )
Regards
Juniatha
Wouldn't it be great to see the Missouri Class ships plying the ocean waters once again?
These refurbishing projects take money. Unless it comes from donors, it must come from government. Steam locomotives are far down on the list of desired restoration projects for the huge bulk of the voting pulbic, too many of whom are seriously needy these days. Even so, trains aren't exactly the icons of the industrial/technical age that they used to be just 60 years ago. People now want $300 Nike shoes, $600 iPads upgraded to the latest version every 18 months, to replace their five year old Chinese made stainles steel barbeques for another $280 because the last one looks like crap (hope springeth eternal), and the smart money, according to HGTV, goes into bathrooms and kitchens.
I don't see much enthusiasm for building a $4M steam locomotive, even if the modern improvements could now be counted as cost-free.
You know, Selector, you're probably right, but still...
I remember back in the 90's Andy Muller of the Reading and Northern saying "If I run an excursion behind a diesel, even a vintage diesel, nobody notices. But if I run that excursion behind a steam engine I stop traffic for miles around!"
I think that steam fascination is still there for a lot of people, just waiting for the right stimulus to bring it out.
Yup, agree entirely. At least, it is what gets my heart pounding. And the truth must surely be that the majority of women and men, and children of both sexes, are enthralled by the sight and sounds of a steamer at full boiler pressure with the valves to the pumps and turbo-generator open. And I would guess that you might be able to raise enough money to build a 'proper' modern steamer worthy of the latest understanding and have it still attract the same attention due to its form factor. I'd even bet that you and one other person helping could do it within about two years. It would be the sustainment that would worry me. I don't know that you could keep it running for long.
I currently reside in an oceanside property that wins hearty approval from visitors. But as my Dad warned us, wife and me, when my Mom passed suddenly and we inherited the property (me on a modest military pension and still some hefty debt due to adult daughters' various needs), you need deep pockets to live oceanside. He wasn't kidding.
Crandell
The need is for Bill Gates or Paul Allen or individuals of that ilk to become steam rail fans and underwrite the adventure.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD The need is for Bill Gates or Paul Allen or individuals of that ilk to become steam rail fans and underwrite the adventure.
It could happen. Several months ago either "Classic Toy Trains" or "O Gauge Railroading", I forget which, ran an article on a super-sized custom "O" gauge layout Lionel built for the BNSF. At the conference where it made its debut there was Warren Buffet looking at it and grinning wide enough to eat a banana sideways. In the background, and equally enthralled, was Bill Gates. You never know...
OK, enough discussion of WHAT we would build if we had the money, let's address the question of WHY?
What is the purpose of the new steam locomotive? What is it about the locomotive we want the public to experience?
If the goal of the locomotive project is to have an historically correct interpretation of mainline steam for a wider public we would want a NYC Niagara or a N&W J.
If the goal of the project was to create something that railfans could operate as a giant man-toy, and the public interest be damned...er...I mean of secondary importance, the best locomotive might be a narrow gauge shunter or a 4-4-0.
If we want to use the locomotive as an educational tool for students up to an including university-level engineering, then the best choice might be a steam inspection locomotive or an urban steam dummy so that we could have a couple of students riding inside while taking indicator diagrams, monitoring combustion efficiency, and plotting steam pressure vs tractive effort.
If we want to run steam excursions for the general public and historical interpretation is secondary, then something small, generic, and portable would be the best choice. Perhaps with a completely new design and using all of the advanced steam technology that came too late for general use. A small 2-4-2, 0-4-4T, or an advanced 4-4-0 might be practical.
If we want to give both the public and the railfans an historical experience, then something like the Leviathan would be the best choice.
So what do we want the locomotive to DO?
The only incorrect answer to that question is "all of the above."
Answer that question and the rest of the decisions will be easy.
Kevin
PS: Why not use the project as a jobs training program? If the engine was bult by trade school students they could learn how to read engineering drawings, cut metal, weld, etc etc. Funding from government sources or private foundations might be easier to obtain.
The previous posting was quite astute in that he asked WHY? I don't have an answer since steam locomotives don't do anything for me except as a curiosity, and I do have vague memories of NKP Berkshires, which were the only steam operating through my neighborhood (I was five years old at the time). Lots of people want to see this, that or the other steam locomotive restored to operating condition while Doyle McCormack works in virtual invisibility in his attempt to restore an Alco PA, which I view as an equally worthy goal. Why steam, why not diesels?
>> Why steam , not diesel ? <<
Can't explain - you'd have to feel it ...
In the land of muscle cars having followed super power steam I'd want a 4-8-4 for excursions .. we want to have a real lively get-away some time or other , enjoy an 0 - 100 acceleration in nothing flat - *g*
Super power - super sound - super trip - super fun - super sunday !
= J =
edit: typing shortcut by Mac 'correction' feature into cryptic 'sy' --> sunday
Why? Well, as the late great Louis Armstrong said about jazz: "Man, if you got to explain it to 'em, forget it!"
Why? Well let's be realistic here. Sooner or later the existing steam engines wil die a second death. All of them. Lack of parts, metal fatigue, their escalating value as historic artefacts will cause them all to go cold and be "stuffed and mounted" in museums. Hate to be a killjoy but it's going to happen. Maybe none of us reading these words will live to see it happen, but it's going to happen just the same. So, if we want live steam in the future then replicas are going to be the way to go. Maybe not Class J's or Hudsons, but something.
And let me be a real killjoy here. All of you who enjoy airshows where the great warbirds of World War Two are flown can expect the same thing to happen to those airplanes. The World War One types will be around for a long time, they're easy to replicate, but how do you replicate a B-17?
That's enough, I'm depressing myself.
If you really want to see steam come back we need to do the following:
Get the Feds to tell the railroads that they will give a 20% tax break for each steam locomotive they use in regular scheduale trains.
Then watch the railroads trip over each other searching for locomotives that can be brought back as well as "new built" steam.
I'm assuming that the prior posting was tongue-in-cheek because that kind of tax break would never pass Congress, steam locomotives would never pass a Tier 1 equivalent, much less the stiffer requirements. At any rate, another posting made a valid point, the sheer age of even the youngest steam locomotives makes parts more scarce and maintenance more expensive.
nwo4rf If you really want to see steam come back we need to do the following: Get the Feds to tell the railroads that they will give a 20% tax break for each steam locomotive they use in regular scheduale trains. Then watch the railroads trip over each other searching for locomotives that can be brought back as well as "new built" steam.
Is the above post the start of the "Draft Ross E. Rowland for President -2016(or 2020) movement"?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I could go for addressing the following three things a steam locomotive can "do."
Atlantic and Hibernia If the goal of the project was to create something that railfans could operate as a giant man-toy, and the public interest be damned...er...I mean of secondary importance, the best locomotive might be a narrow gauge shunter or a 4-4-0. If we want to use the locomotive as an educational tool for students up to an including university-level engineering, then the best choice might be a steam inspection locomotive or an urban steam dummy so that we could have a couple of students riding inside while taking indicator diagrams, monitoring combustion efficiency, and plotting steam pressure vs tractive effort. If we want to run steam excursions for the general public and historical interpretation is secondary, then something small, generic, and portable would be the best choice. Perhaps with a completely new design and using all of the advanced steam technology that came too late for general use. A small 2-4-2, 0-4-4T, or an advanced 4-4-0 might be practical.
The other point I want to emphasize is the value of subscale steam locomotives such as for the narrow gauges used on amusement park rides. We have such a narrow gauge amusement park railroad near where I live (the Whiskey River line as part of the Little A-Merrick-A Amusment Park in Marshall, WI).
At one level, the collection (!) of steam locomotives is a kind of man-toy because the operators of the park who have constructed some of the locomotives along with the volunteers who help with their operation, for them this has to be a "labor of love" because a lot of the labor and love that went into the construction and maintenance of these locomotives is lost on the general public.
At the second level, these steam engines are entertaining to the customers of the amusement park.
At a third level, at least one of the locomotives has builder's plates indicating construction by one of the park operators, the park has acquired locomotives from off-property, and I understand that this operation has constructed other such locomotives for other parks or zoos running similar lines.
These steam locomotives are narrow gauge but are "real steam" in that they serve a commercial venture, the amusement park, and they run non-trivial boiler pressures (I think I read 180 PSI on a gauge seen from the side of the cab of one locomotive).
As the building of these locomotives is ongoing, such locomotives could serve as a testbed for Lempor exhausts, Gas Producer fire boxes, and the like. In fact, last time I was there, I was taking every picture I could of their one locomotive with Baker valve gear with the aim of an eventual scholarly article on the workings of that mechanism. I was so occupied with that, I forgot to bring my remote-sensing temperature gauge (the kind with the red dot laser pointer) to get some readings on firebox, boiler lagging, smokebox, and cylinder jacket temps.
I also observed that instead of keeping the firebed "light and bright", it seemed that they were just stuffing coal into the firebox, and maybe backhandedly, they are running a kind of Gas Producer system with a deep firebed burning at lower temperature. Whatever they were doing, they didn't seem to produce much visible smoke.
So what I am saying is that the amusement park narrow gauge is an ongoing commercial use of the steam locomotive, it is an object of interest to the people building and operating these locomotives as well as to the amusement park patrons, and such subscale locomotives could be a way to conduct research engineering into steam propulsion that could not be conducted any other way.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
selector Wouldn't it be great to see the Missouri Class ships plying the ocean waters once again?
Perhaps you meant "Iowa class"???? FWIW, the Midway class ships had pretty much the same steam plant as the Iowa's and I had a tour of the engine room on the Midway back in 2007.
- Erik
tomikawaTT Rikers Yard Why? Thats easy! Because we *** well want to! Going to the Moon or Mars or Alpha Centaury 6 doesn't mean we can't do other things at the same time. Oh Ye Of Little Vision. If you feel that way maybe you should find another hobby rather than watching outdated technolgy do it's thing. Tim As Tonto was heard saying to the Lone Ranger, "Who, `We," paleface?" The `On to the stars' faction (Star Trek subdivision) just finished a convention here in Sin City. If all the money those folks spent on costumes, travel, hotel space and events was dumped on a new - old steam loco it would be built just as fast as the parts could be fabricated and assembled. I did not attend. From my point of view in the Confederation Universe, `Star Trek' is old technology. New York Central steam was glorious - when it was in revenue service. So was JNR steam. But those days are history. The future is ours - if we don't get distracted by things that won't advance us into it. (Incidentally, I saw those locos in revenue service. Did you?) Chuck (occasional science fiction author)
Nerd-rant ON:
Chuck, I once thought I was a serious Trek fan also, till I went to my first convention (back when it was in Pasadena) and I was so whigged out by the nerdfest scene I only lasted 20 minutes before I had to get out of Dodge. I never experienced that much nerd-tosterone in one room before, funny I've never had that sensation at a train show before, guess it has to do with the more family oriented nature of a train show.
For those who've never been, going to the Trek convention was sort of like when you go to a train show and you see THAT GUY, you know, the rabid over the top foamer in the engineers suit, with a million RR pins all over him running around blowing his wooden train whistle, a little embarasing but tolerable in small doses, now the Trek convention in like stepping into an entire building full of THAT GUYs (and girls) in full costume complete with toy phasers, it can be a bit unnerving, but what the heck, it keeps them off the street.
Nerd Rant OFF
Now the British HAVE built a new locomotive completely from scratch, a Peppercorn A1, took them 11 years and 3 million pounds, all thru private funding, and they are already raising funding for a SECOND from-scratch loco.
For myself ANY from scratch loco should and MUST be something SO extraordinary to make the effort worth it, I mean you raise a ton of cash spend a lot of time and then built something which there are comperable examples still in existance. Personally if the plans exist, I would rebuild on of these:
Settle once and for all the ever pestering question, was this the fastest locomotive ever built?
Have fun with your trains
Was the Pennsy T-1 the fastest steam locomotive ever built? I don't know, but it sure was cool!
Yes, the Pennsy T1. The one that looks so fantastically and phenomonally 1940's Art Deco in that photograph, where designer Raymond Loewy must be among the men in those 3-piece suits and fedora hats. Ah, the Dream, the Vision.
And the Reality, that the streamlining combined with the absence of smoke deflectors meant that smoke and soot when right from the stack, hugged the stream lines, and made its way into the cab, making the crew filthy at the end of a run. And the divided drive and high tractive effort to weight on drivers that made the wheels slip in the absence of giving the crews training in what to expect. And the poppet valves, hidden under those streamline shrouds along with everything else, that the shop crews couldn't get at them to fix them.
With that said, why couldn't someone be persuaded to build one for amusement-park narrow gauge in sub scale? The Whiskey River RR has just about everything else, including a simple-expansion articulated in its shops undergoing rebuild. Wouldn't it be just as kewl at a zoo or amusement park RR, that we don't need the trouble and expense of building it full size?
You know, I'm REALLY looking forward to "Steam Glory 3". There's supposed to be a myth-busting article in in concerning the T-1. Was it really hard to handle, was it really smoky and dirty, was it given a fair chance, and so on. Bear in mind it was tested by the C&O and the N&W and those 'roads didn't find anything wrong with it. Said it was pretty good in fact, even if there was nothing about it they cared to copy.
And yes, it would be interesting to see a sub-scale version built. Hey, they've already done it in "O" gauge, why not one step futher?
And by the way, the wife, Lady Firestorm, says the T-1 isn't Art Deco, it's Art Moderne. The Firestorm knows these things!
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