Forgive me if I am treading into "dangerous waters" here on this subject, but I cannot seem to find any forum dialogue on the topic of air quality pollution from present-day steam locomotive smoke. Is this a rather unmentionable topic?
My grandfather was a Class I RR locomotive engineer from the late 1800s until 1945, and I cherish his memory and have great respect for his vocation, which was railroading "as it was at that time." But, I am a child of these times, when we (speaking personally and collectively) are more and more concerned about environmental pollution. There is considerable attention now given to even the most minor, albeit absolutely true, pollutants, such as elimination of mercury from HVAC control systems and home thermometers, the elimination of the CFC (chlorofluorocarbon) global-warming and ozone-reduction propellant from albuterol aerosol devices for asthma treatment, all of which I entirely favor BTW.
But, now when I see steam locomotives grandly proceeding underway on excursions, I am astonished that no one within our railroading community seems to mention the associated smoke pollution, so sadly and particularly graphic when seen in pristine mountain scenery.
Why is this resultant pollution not ever mentioned in media or forums? One will assert that these are extremely minor effects, usually in remote areas. And, they are certainly are of lesser amounts than a Gulf oil spill, etc. But the locomotive pollutants are still air pollutants, far more damaging I would posit than that which used to be in my much-cheaper CFC asthma inhaler. Are there mitigation efforts underway to offset the smoke? Or do we just pretend that it doesn't matter?
Again, forgive me if I am touching on a sensitive issue. I just wanna know!
Honestly , I don't think it matters , you are talking about a very small amount that generally settles onto the road bed after the train passes . You have to remember that the news media dosn't have the first clue about pollution any more than most of these so called scientist . I think we should let sleeping dogs lie otherwise some tree hugging moron will ruin all of our fun!!!!!!!!
Repowering just one Great Lakes freighter with a 50 year old diesel engine replaced with the latest and greatest thing probably prevents more pollution operating 24/7 from late January to late December each year then stopping every steamer running in excursion service across North America.
In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. There are far more important issues to address then going after historic equipment operated for their historical value and enjoyment like steam locomotives, WWII warbirds, etc.
Most of what your seeing 99% of the time anyways is steam.
I believe a lot of what we see is ash and steam, while the particulate matter is going to settle out on leaves and other surfaces fairly quickly. It is small stuff. Cows and other ruminants' flatus dwarf every single human-generated emission by hundreds of times, and then come the bacteria outside of those beasts who produce their own brand of microfarts. I could try to ball-park it and say that all steamers extant that are fired regularly or semi-regularly contribute less than one ten-thousandth of one percent of all airborne pollutants and emissions. I would even hazard to say that two or three modern diesels come close to polluting the way a steamer does, and we don't even want to think about what a single RB211 or other large jet engine does. Just one of them.
-Crandell
I got to see an excellent example of how different types of coal will affect the smoke. At the East Broad Top, the Mikados were originally designed to burn coal from the Broad Top fields, which was advertised as "smokeless." A few years ago, coal from the Broad Top fields wasn't available, and they burned coal from a field in Indiana County, PA. The smoke was the classic tourist shot, a thick column of black smoke. Last year, they started getting coal from the Broad Top fields again. I must say, when burned properly, it is truly "smokeless." Several tourists, used to seeing the black smoke at other tourist operations, commented on the clean stack. It's something to see on a chilly day. The first couple feet out of the stack are clear, then the steam condenses and you get a thick column of white cloud. Then about 40 feet up, it disappears.
A proper combination of coal selection and proper firing will eliminate most visible smoke, but that's not what tourists expect to see.
There are people intent on shutting down ALL steam operations everywhere. One example is what happened with the Grand Canyon Railway. Funny, though, that they claimed it was in part due to ecconomics, but it seems that ecconomics (ridership down!) is bringing some steam operations back on their line!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
selectorI believe a lot of what we see is ash and steam, while the particulate matter is going to settle out on leaves and other surfaces fairly quickly.
Steam locomotives are terribly inefficient, so if you categorize CO2 as a "pollutant" (boy, that bothers me....it's an emission. It's what you get if you do the combustion completely right!.), then steam locomotives would have an impact several times that of the same excursion train hauled by diesel.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Steam locomotives, in this day and age, are a kind of pastime, and one would think that some common sense be applied.
For examples, black powder fireworks also have broad appeal to "kids of all ages" as do steam locomotives, and those things give off plenty of smoke too.
But, there are the usual kill-joys and pecksniffs who will criticize anything. I remember going to downtown Madison one Saturday and remarking to my wife about hearing a steam locomotive whistle. I read the next day that WSOR, dunno, got one of the North Freedom steam engines or some such thing, and they were offering "joy rides" all day long, if I remember correctly, if you paid enough coin, you could have a short stint in the cab before someone else in a long line of eager steam devotees got their turn too.
Then I remember some time later reading an angry Letter-to-the-Editor about how the sounding of the steam whistle all day wrong ruined someone's peaceful Saturday and how the smoke was probably going to result in permanent lung damage for half the City of Madison.
Yeah, one persons fun pastime is someone else nuisance, one person's fun day at the football game is another persons having that gol' durn' football crowd whooping it up on one's front lawn if you live by the stadium.
I think people need to lighten up. The steam locomotive is part of our national heritage, responsible for pretty much shaping the layout of the towns that came later than the canal and river boat days. The steam locomotive is a pastime for many people, whether they pay much attention to trains or is just something that comes to town, and having the steam locomotive ply the WSOR line was like a once-in-10-year happening. But yes, there are those who will make an issue of this thing.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicSteam locomotives, in this day and age, are a kind of pastime, and one would think that some common sense be applied. For examples, black powder fireworks also have broad appeal to "kids of all ages" as do steam locomotives, and those things give off plenty of smoke too. But, there are the usual kill-joys and pecksniffs who will criticize anything. I remember going to downtown Madison one Saturday and remarking to my wife about hearing a steam locomotive whistle. I read the next day that WSOR, dunno, got one of the North Freedom steam engines or some such thing, and they were offering "joy rides" all day long, if I remember correctly, if you paid enough coin, you could have a short stint in the cab before someone else in a long line of eager steam devotees got their turn too. Then I remember some time later reading an angry Letter-to-the-Editor about how the sounding of the steam whistle all day wrong ruined someone's peaceful Saturday and how the smoke was probably going to result in permanent lung damage for half the City of Madison. Yeah, one persons fun pastime is someone else nuisance, one person's fun day at the football game is another persons having that gol' durn' football crowd whooping it up on one's front lawn if you live by the stadium. I think people need to lighten up. The steam locomotive is part of our national heritage, responsible for pretty much shaping the layout of the towns that came later than the canal and river boat days. The steam locomotive is a pastime for many people, whether they pay much attention to trains or is just something that comes to town, and having the steam locomotive ply the WSOR line was like a once-in-10-year happening. But yes, there are those who will make an issue of this thing.
Indeed. This is all of my thoughts tied up into a neat package.
Still, you get people like these now and then. One YouTube user comes to mind...
Steam locomotives and other very old pieces of machinery that burn coal or oil are exempt from emissions standards because of their old age and because there is really no way to install blowers,scrubbers,and other related emissons junk with out making that historical piece of machinery look like a piece of junk.Many of these locomotives are on the list for the National historical preservation society which means even if they wanted to install modern pieces of machinery on the locomotive they couldn't because it would alter or destroy the history or appearance of the locomotive which is against their rules.
Others have said it and I will say it also.Your modern coal fired power plant consumes 10,000 tons of coal a day(or a 100 car coal train).One days worth of pollution from a coal fired power plant would exceed probably the entire lifetime of one steam locomotive.Smoke from steam locomotives is a heavy smoke so it tends to fall to the ground like diesel does and not stay in the air for very long.
Steam locomotives will always belch thick black smoke despite what anyone says because
1.)They are a living piece of history.
2.)Modifications are expensive,ugly,change the historical value,and alter the appearance.
3.)Tourist railroads using steam locomotives are a major tourist attraction and usually the main source of revenue for the town they are operating in.
4.)The smoke clears quickly and is mixed with steam which is saturated with water and tends to fall to the ground.
5.)Steam locomotive smoke has not been proven to be a pollution problem or a health problem for those operating the locomotive.
Thank you all for providing information regarding modern use of steam locomotives. Very enlightening. You are most knowledgeable, and were gracious to share.
Since I am not a foamer or rail photographer, nor have any desire whatsoever to participate in excursions or railfan experiences, this subject was entirely foreign to me. As I said, "I just wanna know." Now I do !
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