I have learned that former Amtrak F40PH #342 and #351 have been scrapped. Still trying to figure out how to raise money to preserve another one but currently my cafepress store has yielded little success.
- Luke
Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's
Ham549,
I wanted to take the time to offer you personal encouragement. I am a life member of Britain's Deltic Preservation Society (www.thedps.co.uk), and can add some considerable background experience to your efforts.
First, I want to post an essay of mine that Trains Magazine ran sometime in 2000 as I recall (my computer says I finished this in the final days of 1999), under the title "An F40PH Preservation Society?":
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Will anyone preserve an F40PH?
The F40PH must rival the GP7/9 as the locomotive type combining the largest impact on American railroading with the largest disinterest by the American railfan community. As a nationwide locomotive, it appears and sounds the same from Bakersfield to Boston, adding a comfortable consistency and predictable monotone to American train-watching. By comparison with its predecessors, the EMD E8/E9/FP7 and the Alco PA, the F40PH is an unglamorous breadbox on wheels, and its high-rev whine, accentuated at standstill by its need to provide HEP, can be described as irritating.
For years, the F40PH has taken a whipping as a "been there, done that" locomotive. Many railfans in recent years have been loath to raise their cameras to photograph an F40-and-Amfleet/Superliner train; after all, the Pennsylvanian of 1982 looked like the Carolinian of 1985, which looked like the Loop of 1987. Even the recent installations of ditch lights to the front corners have done little to raise the enthusiasm of railfans for this friendly, cheerful little plugger. It will probably take either the complete disappearance of Amtrak or a couple more years of the esthetic catastrophes of Genesis units paired with express boxcars, mismatched passenger cars, and RoadRailers now ignominiously running as named trains before enthusiasts recognize the vital role played by the F40PH.
So who should save an Amtrak F40PH? Most rail preservation efforts in America have focused on the preservation of local railroad artifacts. With the nationwide impact of Amtrak, there is far too likely to be a consensus of "let the other guy do it." The result may be that none will be saved, or one will have to be recreated from a F40PH sold to another passenger agency or freight railroad, or the last wreck might be reclaimed from a scrapyard.
This is perhaps the first time, with the exception of early locomotives or the Pullman day coach, that a railroad preservation effort could be deemed of truly national importance rather than just local or regional importance. Rather than the efforts of a few, the concerted efforts of many nationwide would guarantee preservation of suitable representatives. This would be a worthwhile target of the Smithsonian Institution, but they can rightfully argue that their hands are full with the Alco PA project. Barring efforts by individual preservationists or entrepreneurs, we might expect certain museums to step forward and stake claims-the state railroad museums of California, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania, for example. Of course, Amtrak will be reluctant to release units to museums until complete fleet retirement, lest the public see "museum pieces" pulling their trains.
But another option exists.
Europe has been subject to nationalized rail systems and uniform locomotive and car fleets for decades now. Many countries there and elsewhere have never had a privately owned non-steam locomotive operate on their systems until recently. Therefore, many rail preservation projects in recent years often are driven to a nationwide scale by the prospects of saving examples of a popular locomotive class. In Britain, many preservation groups are dedicated to saving specific locomotive types. Some classes, such as the former British Rail Western Region's passenger flagship diesel-electric Class 50 and diesel-hydraulic Class 52 "Westerns," have more than one group owning multiple examples. These operating groups, typically shareholder groups or incorporated organizations, work independently but often in conjunction with excursion lines. In a recent development, the denationalization of British Rail has allowed the formation of rail tour companies with more autonomy from a national network, and thus the option of hiring vintage power from these locomotive groups for regular or emergency use. The Deltic Preservation Society Ltd. has seen its three 3300-hp 100-mph diesels change from a popular-but-ponderous attraction on slow and scenic tourist lines to income-producing assets leased by Venice-Simplon Orient Express to haul up to fifty luxury tour trains a year. Another Deltic organization, the D9000 Group, has seen its namesake diesel assigned to a regular weekly Virgin Trains revenue run-a timetable passenger service!
Imagine the possibilities for a small, independent fleet of F40PHs held by a not-for-profit preservation group. A non-profit designed to operate merely to cover expenses could be more competitive than one that has to answer to stockholders or Congress. In the end, they could always revert back to as-built Amtrak locomotives. But what if the stillborn Marlboro Unlimited project had needed locomotives for a year? Would the recently-abandoned Florida Fun Train have been able to use a set of F40PHs cheaper than Amtrak's? What about a transcontinental train to an NRHS or passenger-car convention, with all private cars and locomotives? Wouldn't a host railroad look more kindly upon an excursion request using locos familiar to them? What if a city needed a temporary commuter service because of a construction project, or a cruise-ship line wanted to experiment with a land-cruise train for six months before making bigger investments?
Perhaps the time is right for a national, class-specific diesel preservation group in the United States. Is it outside the by-laws of the NRHS or the Amtrak Historical Society to form a holding company for a pair or more of F40PHs, not just to save them from the scrapper but to operate? Or must we wait until Amtrak's last original F40PHs are lying on the back storage track of some fourth-owner transit agency where E9s or RDCs sat fifteen years earlier?
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Now, since that essay, operations like the Grand Canyon RR, CSX, and commuter agencies have snapped up surplus F40's from Amtrak. Chris Fussell managed to acquire one privately in Portland, Oregon, starting with little more than you have. And since then, yes, the CSRM has an F40PH set aside, and the North Carolina Transportation Museum went and got 307--and they told me it was in direct response to my essay, and even invited me down to speak at the unit's dedication at their Railfan Days that year. (The RR Museum of Pa. went for an Amtrak E60CH instead--a wise move, as it was made in Pennsylvania and few other museums could reasonably show off such a locomotive as appropriate to their collections.)
My suggestion to you is to start working on the longer-range goals. Do you just want to have this big hunk of metal sitting about, or do you want to run it? How will it earn its keep? Where would you put it or run it? Find out whether they would be interested in such a proposal or not, and why or why not. (Random examples: If you want to put it at Hamlet, NC, they may say "there's already one at Spencer, and we don't have a place for it"--or they might just decide to install a display track. If you go to the Illinois Ry. Museum--which I actually think would be a good place for one--you may discover that they demand an "endowment" of $100 a foot of track space to pay for the track it will sit on and help pay for future maintenance.) Everyone gets the idea that a state agency can just "donate" a locomotive free, but you might discover that, thanks to government monies spent on the locomotives, they have to dispose of it in certain ways, like offering them to other agencies first. We ran into that conundrum with certain ex-C&NW bilevel cars.
If I were approaching this situation today, I would most certainly contact Chris Funnell up in Oregon for advice on what to do and what NOT to do. He had the extraordinary luxury of having a cooperative overseer named Doyle McCormack (of SP 4449, SP&S 700, and Alco PA fame) to help him, advise him, and give the locomotive a place to sit on friendly terms. Also seek advice and suggestions from other independent locomotive owners/operators--Doyle McCormack, Bennett Levin (of PRR E8 fame), Andrew Muller (Reading & Northern, two steamers and lots of diesels), and even brokers and scrappers like Larry's Truck & Electric in Ohio or RMDI of Pittston, Pa. For all we know, you might talk your way into a committment to help you with stashing a loco aside until you have the money, giving your group work space and/or storage, etc.
Another serious suggestion would be for you and any others interested in independent F40 preservation/operation (you can still start the society, by the way!) to associate and align yourselves with another operator of F40's for eventual preservation--the Grand Canyon RR, Nashville's commuter operation, etc. Use the relationship to learn more about the locomotives, learn the realities behind railroad preservation, etc. You may or may not actually end up preserving an F40PH, but you just might end up in a career in railroading that could pay off in other ways--or you might end up saving the last Amtrak Genesis diesel!
Finally, much as I hate to suggest another forum here, I would most definitely seek advice at the Interchange forum at Railway Preservation News--www.rypn.org. More "professional" preservationists tend to hang out there, and the "signal-to-noise" ratio is much better there than most.
Thanks for your response. I am pretty shore I have a home for it at the museum I am part of but nothing is "official" yet. I would like to have it as a stationary display that we could fire up on certain occasions that way it won’t where out as fast and people would get to go inside the engine room and cab when it is not being used. I also have talked with Chris to get some help.
No need to 'perserve' them, just sell them to a short line.
Several are already in museums..
Tennessee Central Railway Museum has two, 258 and 375.
California State Railroad Museum has one, 281.
North Carolina Transportation Museum has one, 307.
thats four preserved..and there was a guy who bought one on his own..privately owned. I cant seem to find any info on it..anyone remember that one?
ah! found it..owned by Chris Fussel, stored at Albany, Oregon. http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/photos.htm (oh god..please dont repaint it in daylight colors! )
thats 5 preserved.
Scot
If you go to msn maps and look at the site, you can use bird's eye view. You can rotate around and the F40PH is visible. Yes it is now in Daylight colors.
fredswain wrote: If you go to msn maps and look at the site, you can use bird's eye view. You can rotate around and the F40PH is visible. Yes it is now in Daylight colors.
huh..well I guess its not so bad:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=213093&nseq=0
looks very nice actually..but why? why buy a historic locomotive and then NOT restore it in historic colors? Doyle must have rubbed off on him! "Because it's mine and I want it that way." (a reference to: http://www.nkp190.com/ )
oh well, a Daylight F40PH is better than a scrapped F40PH..
scottychaos wrote:huh..well I guess its not so bad:http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=213093&nseq=0looks very nice actually..but why? why buy a historic locomotive and then NOT restore it in historic colors?
looks very nice actually..but why? why buy a historic locomotive and then NOT restore it in historic colors?
Actually Daylight colors throughout the entire Amtrak system would look quite nice I think.
Al - in - Stockton
I dunno. I like the DRGW colors that we get on our F40s (sorry about that non-F40 lead unit!).
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
LNERR4472,
Your post is very well thought out and realistic. For me, the one paragraph that stood out is this one:
quote - For years, the F40PH has taken a whipping as a "been there, done that" locomotive. Many railfans in recent years have been loath to raise their cameras to photograph an F40-and-Amfleet/Superliner train; after all, the Pennsylvanian of 1982 looked like the Carolinian of 1985, which looked like the Loop of 1987. Even the recent installations of ditch lights to the front corners have done little to raise the enthusiasm of railfans for this friendly, cheerful little plugger. It will probably take either the complete disappearance of Amtrak or a couple more years of the esthetic catastrophes of Genesis units paired with express boxcars, mismatched passenger cars, and RoadRailers now ignominiously running as named trains before enthusiasts recognize the vital role played by the F40PH. - end quote
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Yes, I would like to see more F40s saved, however, I remember being around when the F40 came unto the scene. Ham, I don't know your age but many of us that were railfanning back in the 1970s absolutely did not like the appearance of the F40s at all! Comments in my railfan/hobbyshop circles included: "Cheescake looking!", "Stubby!", "Chunky little box!", "What kind of a nose is that?!" "GP40 in a box!"..............
I was a teen then and remember how we had been spoiled by the SDP40f's 72ft. long, graceful body style, teardrop windshields, and cowl nose. Close resemblence to the FP45. Of course, the F40 proved itself well and eventually "grew" on a lot of us. For years they were typical of Dash 2 EMD locomotives: Tough, and reliable, although the advent of HEP wore out key components ahead of their time. As I stated on another post, I even had several photos taken of me in the cab of a unit. I'll eventually upload those photos.
But, imho, I doubt the F40 will become extinct, but by all means this is still a worthy venture. Hopefully it will yield good results.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Ham,
If you haven't seen it yet, you may enjoy this. This takes place in my neck of the woods. Includes cab ride footage from one of the ex-Amtrak F40s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvHdw9YCsJo
Two F40's on No. 14 could whip that train across the Coast Line like nobody's business! Give me a pair of F40's with Tommy De La Rosa at the throttle and I'll show you barely a blur through Morgan Hill.
I fired occasionally for Tommy many years ago when he would put the whip to a pair of F40's only to slow to the mandated 70 mph for the talking detector near Morgan Hill, then after it gave its radio readout, he would put the whip to them again! Seemed as if we were never late into San Jose.
Yep. Save a few.
Have fun with your trains
I hope they all get scrapped, I hate Amtrak
I think its pretty much safe to say that F40's alone killed any interest I ever had in standard gauge trains
Mr_Ash wrote: I hope they all get scrapped, I hate Amtrak I think its pretty much safe to say that F40's alone killed any interest I ever had in standard gauge trains
you need to get out more!
I look at a blunt nosed Genesis, and I get nostalgic for the ol' F40s.
I like the FP59s but the Gennies just look like a badly brisqued B unit.
I LIKE trains that look like a space ship.
Aerodynamic drag is a major factor in fuel efficiency and horsepower requirements.
Passenger and freight roads should pay more attention to it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
espeefoamer wrote:At least the F40 looked like a locomotive.The new units look more like spaceships than anything that belongs on a railroad.
Funny ... I remember saying the same thing when they were cutting up our E-9s
Well everyone's entitled to their view. I've had many a pleasurable trip on Amtrak, behind SDP40fs and F40phs. Amtrak may be a former shadow of the great passenger rail network this country once had, but Amtrak has proven it's usefulness and value inpsite of opinions to the contrary. Ridership has been increasing and no one's forcing those people on to those trains. Inspite of the bueracracy, Amtrak's definetly doing something right!
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