So. St. Paul UP Yard

[Anonymous]

Lots of up close opportunities at the UP South ST. Paul yard. There is a walking trail along the tracks and a great views of St. Paul along the Mississippi River. Easy access off 494 at Concord Ave.


http://photos.yahoo.com/karuba2001

[nanaimo73]

You have some terrific shots there.

Do you have any photographs of UP's 3 nearby bridges over the Mississippi ?

[Anonymous]

No but will work on that this summer

[blhanel]

If I get up there sometime this summer for a weekend with my parents, I may just swing up that way (after dropping the wife off at the Mall of America) and get some shots for you as well. Let me know if there are any other bridges along the upper MS you'd like to see...

[beaulieu]

Bridge #21 is easy, there are hundreds of pictures out there. Bridge #20 is possible but there aren't good angles. Bridge #22 though, is only possible by trespassing seriously, or a boat, which is probably the best way to get a decent picture of Bridge #20.

John Beaulieu

[nanaimo73]

Which bridge sees more traffic between St. Paul and south St. Paul ?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Not sure Dale. I want to say #21 (Robert Street), but it may be equal. It really depends on direction of travel. Coming out of South St Paul, if you want to head west you have use #22. If you want to go to east or north, you can use either, but #21 keeps trains out of the Hoffman Ave interlocking, though there are other bottlenecks in this area of joint trackage.

One other consideration is the 5 MPH speed restriction on the Robert Street bridge. Not sure if there is any restriction on SPB&T.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Not sure Dale. I want to say #21 (Robert Street), but it may be equal. It really depends on direction of travel. Coming out of South St Paul, if you want to head west you have use #22. If you want to go to east or north, you can use either, but #21 keeps trains out of the Hoffman Ave interlocking, though there are other bottlenecks in this area of joint trackage.

One other consideration is the 5 MPH speed restriction on the Robert Street bridge. Not sure if there is any restriction on SPB&T.

Right, which bridge you use depends on where you need to go. For example a UP coal train going via CP to Weston will use Bridge#21 so that you don't have to run the power around. A UP move from S. St. Paul to Valley Park yard will use Bridge #22 and then Bridge# 20 because you can only head east (or then north) off of Bridge #21. Any UP move from S. St. Paul to the Altoona Sub. is going to tie up everything no matter which bridge is used. and so usually takes awhile until the East Hump DS can find a hole in the traffic. The problem with Bridge #21 is the curves, a sharp curve at the north end of the bridge. Coming off the bridge you first cross both Soo tracks on diamonds, you then are on a SPUD lead track.
When you get to the east end of the depot you have two choices, you can take the west leg of the wye towards Seventh St. interlocking and the St. Paul Sub.(ex-NP) or the Midway Sub (ex-GN), or even via the Hole Track to the remains of the Skally (ex-NP) which connects to the former C&NW Altoona Sub.
The other alternatives at the depot is to enter the Soo and proceed to West Hoffman interlocking. Any move towards Seventh St. is around a curve that is reversed to the curve at the west end of the depot and up a significant grade. The coal trains always have pushers for this move.

[nanaimo73]

Thanks John
Welcome back Elliot.

Are the coal trains heading for Xcel in Bayport and Weston ?
Any other coal trains ?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Dale, I never really left, just haven't had much to say lately. This is one of the first topics of interest to me in a very long time.

Bayport coal trains still run, and cross at Robert Street. However, I have heard that Xcel Energy is converting the plant to natural gas firing. I don't know when this will happen, but when it does it will spell the end to that service.

The train is actually double ended. The steep grade coming into Lakeland junction, where the Bayport track splits off, isn't that much of a problem since loaded trains are going downhill.

The second crew is needed for a number of reasons. First, so they aren't backing into the plant. Second, It saves walking the length of the 100+ car train to throw the switch at the junction. Third, there is no runaround, so the outbound "pushers" take the lead on the way home with the empties.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Thanks Dale, I never really left, just haven't had much to say lately. This is one of the first topics of interest to me in a very long time.

Bayport coal trains still run, and cross at Robert Street. However, I have heard that Xcel Energy is converting the plant to natural gas firing. I don't know when this will happen, but when it does it will spell the end to that service.

The train is actually double ended. The steep grade coming into Lakeland junction, where the Bayport track splits off, isn't that much of a problem since loaded trains are going downhill.

The second crew is needed for a number of reasons. First, so they aren't backing into the plant. Second, It saves walking the length of the 100+ car train to throw the switch at the junction. Third, there is no runaround, so the outbound "pushers" take the lead on the way home with the empties.

The Bayport Trains don't really need pushers, I was refering to the Weston trains to the CN, and while they ran via the Twin Cities the trains to the Pulliam plant in Green Bay. These trains take the Minnesota Commercial to New Brighton, this is what requires the pushers. There are no plans to convert the King plant at Bayport to Natural Gas, thank God. Natural Gas rates are high enough already. The Riverside plant off Marshall St. , just south of Northtown Yard, The High Bridge plant, along Shephard Rd. in St. Paul, and one of the two units at Black Dog plant are being converted to Gas.

[nanaimo73]

Which way do UP trains between South St. Paul and Chicago go ?
Do they all go through Milwaukee or do any use the Spine Line ?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Thanks Dale, I never really left, just haven't had much to say lately. This is one of the first topics of interest to me in a very long time.

Bayport coal trains still run, and cross at Robert Street. However, I have heard that Xcel Energy is converting the plant to natural gas firing. I don't know when this will happen, but when it does it will spell the end to that service.

The train is actually double ended. The steep grade coming into Lakeland junction, where the Bayport track splits off, isn't that much of a problem since loaded trains are going downhill.

The second crew is needed for a number of reasons. First, so they aren't backing into the plant. Second, It saves walking the length of the 100+ car train to throw the switch at the junction. Third, there is no runaround, so the outbound "pushers" take the lead on the way home with the empties.

The Bayport Trains don't really need pushers, I was refering to the Weston trains to the CN, and while they ran via the Twin Cities the trains to the Pulliam plant in Green Bay. These trains take the Minnesota Commercial to New Brighton, this is what requires the pushers. There are no plans to convert the King plant at Bayport to Natural Gas, thank God. Natural Gas rates are high enough already. The Riverside plant off Marshall St. , just south of Northtown Yard, The High Bridge plant, along Shephard Rd. in St. Paul, and one of the two units at Black Dog plant are being converted to Gas.

Riverside and High Bridge I was aware of, but I thought the King was supposed to be the third. I hope you're right. I thought the conversion plan was stupid back when it was first proposed. I think it's been about 3 years ago now. With natural gas prices being what they are, Xcel may be wishing they had opted for scrubbers. Either way, consumers are screwed.

I've always wondered about UP coal trains heading up the Commercial. Thanks! If I ever get back to working on my model railroad, those trains will be a part of operations.

Dale, I'm not sure how much Chicago traffic UP gets from this area. Just a guess, but down the spine line for regular freight. The route of the 400's doesn't get much traffic at all. Track is still pretty crappy in spite of some long overdue maintenance. Most sections are 30 MPH max. The Triple Crown uses it though. I wonder how long that will last, now that the Ford Plant's fate is all but sealed.

[wjstix]

Are we talking about South St. Paul the city, famous for it's stockyards, or the south part of St. Paul?? [%-)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yup, the city of South Saint Paul the one with the stock yards.

There is also a city of North Saint Paul, and a city of West Saint Paul, neither of which have any rails. East Saint Paul isn't a city, it's a neighborhood known as the East Side. UP tracks cut through that part of town.

There's a West Side neighborhood. That's the part of the city of Saint Paul south of the river, and north of West Saint Paul and South Saint Paul. This is what the Robert Street bridge connects to downtown.

Bout as clear as mud? Then there's Saint Paul Park.... [swg]

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Which way do UP trains between South St. Paul and Chicago go ?
Do they all go through Milwaukee or do any use the Spine Line ?

The MSSPR/MPRSS use the route via Milwaukee, along with the Triple Crown Roadrailer, and there is a road local between St. Paul and Altoona (Eau Claire).

John Beaulieu

[nanaimo73]

There are not many City pairs like Twin Cities-Chicago that are stll served by 4 Class 1s. Sounds like UP is in 4th place.

Does the Minnesota Commercial or TC&W come into South St. Paul yard ?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

There are not many City pairs like Twin Cities-Chicago that are stll served by 4 Class 1s. Sounds like UP is in 4th place.

Who's the 4th railroad? CN? They only recently made a connection to the Twin Cities when they bought the Wisconsin Central. UP has to be doing more business than that. They just don't have the most efficient route for Chicago traffic. CP and BNSF have to get the lion's share of that business. Now if you want to send something to Omaha, Kansas City, Des Moines, or San Francisco, UP is the more direct route.

QUOTE: Does the Minnesota Commercial or TC&W come into South St. Paul yard ?

Not to my knowledge. They don't cross the river. They interchange out of the St Paul yard where they can reach both CP and UP.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

There are not many City pairs like Twin Cities-Chicago that are stll served by 4 Class 1s. Sounds like UP is in 4th place.

Does the Minnesota Commercial or TC&W come into South St. Paul yard ?

UP receives close to 100 percent of its interchange at Belt Yd. which is located at the north end of Bridge#20 and alongside CP/Soo's St. Paul Yd.

As far as serving the Twin Cities for carload traffic CP is number 1, followed by UP, then BNSF, then anybody else, since neither CN, IC&E, or TC&W can directly serve any carload customer in the Twin Cities except through one of the two shortlines, MNNR or PGR. Now for Intermodal it is BNSF followed by CP, with nobody else having a facility.