Mississippi River Crossings

[nanaimo73]

I should have started in Louisiana and gone up. I put in an interlibrary request for Logging Railroads of Minnesota. I think it will show 2 more (just a guess).

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dale, I see you're down to the Twin Cities with your renumbering. When you pu***hrough, I go back and renumber in all my posts. It figures you found the 52nd in northern Minnesota. It couldn't have been in Louisana. That would have been too easy.[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

Quote from Big_Boy_4005:

Class ones over time is a moving target because periodicly the revenue requirements changed. Add to that all of the merger activity over the years, and the number of class ones operating in any given state drops like a rock. I'm not sure what today's revenue levels are. My guess is that Illinois still has the most, but that's almost a no brainer.

There is the forward to an excellent book!

[blhanel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Nice pics, once I got in there I flipped through all of the train shots. I see you visited the Twin Cities.

Yes, I get up there quite a bit. Was born in Mankato and raised up in Prior Lake, just south of Shakopee. My folks still live there. My Mom grew up in northwest Wisconsin, so that area's pretty much like home as well.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually, it looks like you are both right. Go back to this link and look at the photo and both maps enlarged.

www.macalester.edu/geography/mage/urban/Brainerd/rail.htm

The narrow gauge logging road that used that bridge, never connected with the NP. I suspect that when the logging road went out, the site was converted to the county road, and has subsequently been enlarged.

So, by Dale's standards, there really was another railroad bridge over the Mississippi. It was a narrow gauge logging railroad bridge that is now a road bridge.

[DanRaitz]

The M&I was in operation until 1941 when the NP took over at a forecloser sale.
As to that bridge in question, I looked at some of my topo maps and it shows it to be a highway bridge, CR25 to be exact.

Dan

[nanaimo73]

I read that the M&I basically closed down around 1932 or 1933 and I was thinking NP shifted the line to their bridge when they took over after 1941. I think I'll list it as a possible bridge for now. My 1942 atlas shows the route using the NP bridge.
This would help
www.upress.umn.edu/Books/K/king_minnesota.html

[DanRaitz]

one problem.
That bridge on the north side of Brainerd is not the Minnesota & International RR bridge. The M&I was incorparated in 1900 taking over the assets of the Brainerd & Northern Minnesota RR. The M&I used the Northern Pacific bridge to cross the Mississippi River and then turned north to Bemidji.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=15&X=2034&Y=25671&W
As to that bridge that you are showing, I don't know who's it is (was?).

Dan

[Big_Boy_4005]

Nice pics, once I got in there I flipped through all of the train shots. I see you visited the Twin Cities.

[blhanel]

Found 'em!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85729295@N00/33549610/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/85729295@N00/33549611/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/85729295@N00/33549612/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/85729295@N00/33549613/

[blhanel]

Hey guys, here's one shot of #31 that I had readily available- I think I have a few more on a CD somewhere that show the bridge in various stages of swung open.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85729295@N00/33545398/

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dale, that's happened to me a couple of times too. Searching for something and being sent to something I said.

Remember, computers only know what we tell them.[swg]

[nanaimo73]

If I knew the year the M&SL bridge at Keithsburg and the CB&Q bridge at Alton opened I would be happy with everything south of Minnesota. The Gophers are causing me grief. I did a search on "Keithsburg rail bridge" and had a good laugh when this thread came up.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yup Dale, that's another bridge. The Macalester link is very good with the map and photo. At one time ( as late as the late 70's) there was continuous rail from Little Falls to International Falls via Brainerd and Bemidji. The first piece to go was that short section between Camp Ripley and Brainerd. After that, BN closed the whole thing. I have a railroad atlas published in 1985 that still shows it open.

By the way, MNG is Minnesota National Guard (Camp Ripley). I wouldn't be surprised if BNSF has the state pay for any maintenance on that spur, since they probably wanted to abandon it. I doubt it sees much traffic. Maybe they send a detail out from the camp to clear the weeds from time to time.[swg]

[nanaimo73]

Elliot,
This site shows a bridge at the north end of Brainerd.
Go to the next page and click on the logging railways map.
www.macalester.edu/geography/mage/urban/Brainerd/rail.htm  
Since this is north of the Twin Cities, my numbers for the bridges there will change, and that would make your posted numbers different for now. I won't be changing them for awhile though.
There is supposed to be a book called "Logging Railroads of Northern Minnesota" by Franklin King. I'll see if I can get it through an Interlibrary loan, and I suspect that will add at least one more.

You can see the rails at the bottom just west of the road. This would be the south end of the Minnesota and International which had been the "Brainerd Northern International Railroad" and became part of NP in 1941 or 1942.
www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1023&Y=12842&W

[Big_Boy_4005]

Murph, If I remember correctly I used Moody's in the business reference section of the library. It was a lot of page flipping. There wasn't just a list, but that was 20 years ago. Prehaps there is an easier way to do it with a computer now.

Class ones over time is a moving target because periodicly the revenue requirements changed. Add to that all of the merger activity over the years, and the number of class ones operating in any given state drops like a rock. I'm not sure what today's revenue levels are. My guess is that Illinois still has the most, but that's almost a no brainer.

I'll try to find my data. I'm sure it's here. Like I said I found the graphics, but I hadn't put any of the text on on the chart. I don't remember what it all means without the key and the years of the survey.

[Murphy Siding]

nanaimo73: I found it! ( this post that is.) This looks like an interesting project. Why did you pick an area so far from home? Or, are you from that area? I started trying to track ( bad pun ) all the current and no longer existing tracks in Iowa, and trace back to who's tracks they were. Believe me, Iowa had a lot of tracks. South Dakota had so reletively few tracks, that a similar project took an afternoon.

Big_Boy_4005: You hit another interest that I've tried to research from time to time-the dwindleing numbers of class ones. Any idea where to find a year by year list of class ones? I think the subject would be an excellent topic for a book by sombody like Brian Solomon. You could have history,geography,nostalgia, maps and pretty pictures all wrapped up in an interesting book.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hi Dale, thanks for including me in the main post, it has been fun following your progress on this project. I'm glad you have found my input helpful. There's nothing quite like being there.

I checked out the links to your previous projects, nice work. I really liked the Amrtak stats.

Back in my college days, about 20 years ago, I was a geography major and had to do a thematic map project. I chose to show the rise and fall of railroad milage, and the number of class one roads. It was a lot of research. I never did finish it. I have the graphics handy, but I'll have to do some digging for the data. I may be able to resurect it using the computer, and possibly add one more new map to show the continuing trend.

I spent some time plowing through railpictures.net looking for photos of some of these bridges. In over 60 pages this was all I found. There were a couple more in the early pages before I started recording the links. I'll go back and get them. There are still hundreds to go through. I would agree, there isn't a lot out there.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=110461 Camden Bridge Minneapolis, MN
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=103805 "Omaha" Bridge St Paul, MN
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=107094 Robert St Bridge St Paul, MN
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=104667 Robert St Bridge St Paul, MN
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=105543 Government Bridge Davenport, IA
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=99198 #48 & #49 Memphis, TN
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=110372 KCS Vicksburg, MS
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=110370 KCS Vicksburg, MS
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=101951 KCS Vicksburg, MS

I agree that the popups are annoying, but some of the photos are worth it.

[nanaimo73]

I would prefer to have locals like yourself comment on how much traffic there is on each bridge.
I'm going to leave it as one monster post. I have all of the links done now. Once I get the histories done I'm going to go over the former Amtrak trains in the Minneapolis area and then cover the pre Amtrak service. That should be it. My attention span on this topic is coming to an end, and I have some other projects I want to get to. The state of this Trackside guides forum is deplorable, and I want to do a monster post each month to change that. My next project will go faster, and it also involves the Twin Cities.

Your suggestion on the status of abandoned bridges is a good one. The trouble is my only guide is terraserver, and some of those images are 20 years old. I would just be telling people what they already saw. Hopefully some other people will come forward and be as helpfull as you have.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I see that you have gone back and added a status line for each bridge. Good idea. I think you should consider adding one more class, which would be "demolished". That is a major distinction over abandoned, which I would consider to mean standing but not in use.

Secure may not be the best word to describe a bridge, because it is easy to confuse it's activity level and importance to the railroad with it's structural integrity.

Here are the bridges from Minneapolis to LaCrosse.

13 - high activity
14 - low activity
15 - high activity
16 - abandoned (converted to pedestrian and bike)
17 - demolished
18 - abandoned (converted to pedestrian and bike)
19 - low activity
20 - high activity
21 - high activity
22 - high activity
23 - abandoned
24 - high activity
25 - demolished
26 - demolished
27 - demolished
28 - high activity
29 - demolished

By the way, 16 and 18 are being considered for use with a proposed light rail line between downtown Minneapolis and downtown St Paul.

Here's something else to think about, book keeping. The main post is getting very long, and it is becoming very difficult to see where you are placing new material. Why not take one post per bridge, and break this into chapters. To make it extremely clean, start a new topic here in this forum where it is quiet. Cut and paste the material into each post, if you need help, I can coach you. The really cool part about doing it this way is that little blue arrow in the topic listing, takes you to the last post, including any edits. It makes it very easy to see the updates.

When all is said and done, you can post a link in the main forum, directing people to it.

What do you think?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've had a chance to look at some more of those maps, and have come to some conclusions.

First, railroads back in the 1800's changed names as often as we change underwear.

Second, no matter what they were called, the right of ways were more or less fixed early on, and did not get moved very far if at all, though it is difficult to tell given the crudity and large scale of the early maps.

Third, as of the 1855 map, the Mississippi had not been crossed from Wisconsin. By the mid 1880's there were a number of crossings, including 25,26, and 27.

( I am in mid thunderstorm here, and sometimes my computer reboots when the power filckers. I hate losing posts, so I'm editing.)

Fourth, the first rails to reach the Twin Cities from the east did not cross the Mississippi. They used the BNSF route north of La Crosse, and crossed the St Croix at Prescott.

Are you interested in another river bridge project? The St Croix is also interesting, and there are only 6, though I originally thought there were only 4. [swg]

[Big_Boy_4005]

That is a cool resource. I didn't plow through everything yet, I kind of went straight to the earliest. The first one only had a single line heading west from St Paul along the east bank, and finally crossing near St Cloud. (circa 1850) No connections to the east.

The next one skipped about 40 years ahead, and showed the lines pretty well developed into their maximum configuration. Unfortunately, I can't link directly to that map (I tried), but it shows the tracks in their current orientation, though the map is rather crude.

I suspect that the 1871 documentation was referring to the bridge at Prescott which crossed the St Croix to a piece of land in Minnesota called Point Douglas. To someone not familiar with the area, they wouldn't really know the difference, and those are the two closest towns. I still don't think we have a "phantom" bridge.

Your teraserver link captured that bridge perfectly, though it is hard to see because it is so dark against the water. The light colored road bridge just to the north stands out much better. The Perscott bridge too is a lift bridge.

Sorry I didn't notice #40 as being a lift. I've been a little too focused on the Minnesota bridges, but as you have posted additional photo links, I have been looking at the others down stream. Kind of hard to tell a lift from overhead.[;)] ED. Now that you mentioned it I see the shadows of of the lift towers on the water.

I am by interest more of a modeler than a railroader, which is part of the reason these bridges interest me so much. On my home layout, I will be representing Hastings, Prescott, and the Milwaukee Short Line, for sure (maybe others).

As you can see from my signature, the focus will be the Amtrak Empire Builder, though that would get rather dull with only 2 trains per day, so there will also be plenty of freight.

The layout starts out on the south end at Red Wing on the CP, with a second leg entering at Prescott on the BNSF. The plan follows the tracks past all of the Twin Cities' bridge locations, with the CP exiting just before the Camden bridge, and the BNSF exiting beyond Northtown.

Minneapolis / Western: To "and" or not to "and", that is the question. A source of great confusion for my aging brain. To add to the confusion, Minneapolis not only had a Western, but also had an Eastern. One had an AND in it's name the other did not.

Unfortunately, my best resource for this information passed away while shoveling snow during the Thanksgiving Blizzard of '91. He used to work for General Mills, and had access to the company archives. He had filing cabinets full of materials he had copied. Very cool stuff. His collection put the Minnesota Historical Society's to shame on this subject matter. One could only imagine what General Mills has in it's vault.

Bill took me on something of a guided tour of the downtown bridge sites, as research for a club layout that he designed, and we were building. That's how I found out about this stuff. Of course that was nearly 20 years ago.

Back to the question at hand, I believe Western has the and, and Eastern does not.

Minneapolis & Western

Minneapolis Eastern

Keep up the good work, you might be able to get this published.[bow][tup][tup][^][:D][8D]

[nanaimo73]

Yes, I agree with you. I'm going to check it out on
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html  
when I get time. I wanted to raise the question for other investigators. I looked around on Terraserver and couldn't find anything.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=15&X=644&Y=6192&W  
The year given in that link (the one in your quote works) is 1871.

You mentioned St. Paul#24 and Hastings#27 were the only lift bridges you knew of still operating. The Wabash bridge, Hannibal#43, is another.

Was Minneapolis#20 the Minneapolis Western or the Minneapolis and Western ?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Early bridges
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/RiverWeb/Projects/Ambot/Archives/History/ts3.html
This mentions a railroad bridge between Prescott, Wisconsin and Hastings, Minnesota which could be a 52nd site.

Nanaimo, I find parts of this document to be suspect. I know that I am not always right, but I can guarantee you that Hudson Wisconsin is NOT on the MISSISSIPPI. It is on the ST CROIX. The St Croix forms the border between Minnesota and Wisconsin north of the Mississippi, and flows into it at Prescott Wisconsin, about 3 miles down river from Hastings.

The BNSF (ex CB&Q) main to Chicago crosses the mouth of the St Croix at Prescott, and enters Minnesota. There is really only one possibility for there to have been such a bridge 52 in this location, and that would be if a much earlier version of the Milwaukee Road had a very different alignment from present day. The problem with an alignment that followed the river bank more closely, opposite Prescott, is that it is mostly swamp and backwater. There was also the Vermillion River to contend with. Very difficult terrain for a railroad to cross, especially given that there was good solid ground a couple of miles inland.

It is possible that there was an earlier version of bridge 24, but I can't imagine that it would have been very far from where it is today. Then there's the question of what railroad did it belong to?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I see you have been very busy working on the list. Lookin good.

I happened to be out and about yesterday, and managed to grab some quick shots of some of the Twin Cities bridges. They aren't exactly simple to photograph when you're in a hurry, because the best locations need to be walked to, and I didn't have time.

One thing that makes the Camden bridge (#13) unusual is that there is a switch at the west end, at least 50' from the bank. It can be seen very well in the aerial photo, but land based shots tend to miss that feature. This isn't the best picture, but it does show how the bridge branches off.



Moving down stream, I was mistaken about the status of #14. The BNSF does indeed have customers on the west bank, including a cement plant and at least 2 scrap metal dealers. There may be more. The bridge was reduced from 2 tracks down to 1, but it is alive and well.



As I was heading down the road on the east side of the river, the road crossed over the line that leads to #15. Of course there was a westbound TC&W train, heading for the bridge, but by the time I could get to the spot where I could actually see the bridge, it had crossed.



I didn't mess with the stone arch. If you look at the photo I posted earlier, in the background there is a concrete arch road bridge. That may be one of the best public vantage points remaining to shoot the stone arch.

This brings us to #17 which no longer exists. Here is all that remains of the Minneapolis Western bridge, the east bank approach footing. If you look closely through the other road bridges, you can just make out a small section of the steel trusses of the NP High Bridge (#18).



Here is what the bridge might have looked like if it was still standing.



I never realized that the high bridge had been converted to bike and foot traffic back in 1999. Oops, live and learn.

The Milwaukee Short Line bridge (#19) is another one that will take some location scouting to get a good shot of, and #20, #22and #23 are even tougher without a boat.

Here is a quick shot of the Robert Street Lift Bridge, taken through the windshield of a moving vehicle. There are better vantage points of course.



Here is a photo of the CP's bridge at Hastings (#24). As far as I can tell, this and Robert Street are the only lift style bridges on the Mississippi. This is also the last Mississippi River bridge that is entirely in Minnesota.



I find it quite interesting that for as long as the Mississippi River is, and as many states that use it as a border, more than half of the bridges ever built to span it were built with at least one end in Minnesota. Living near so many of these marvels, it is easy to take them for granted.

[Anonymous]

Worked as Operator on Bridge at Sabula, Ia # 30 in Early sixties have fond memories of it . This would be my Favorite

Mike Beckert

[DanRaitz]

No, it is no longer in use. I've also got a shot of the old M&I bridge, that is now used for a bike trail, will post after I get it scanned.

Here it is.

Dan

[nanaimo73]

I was going to post that. Well, actually I still will. I love the Oakways. Do you know if the Soo bridge just to the north is still used ?

[DanRaitz]

Here is one of my shots of the BNSF crossing in Bemidji, MN

Dan

[Anonymous]

That is an excellent study. Thanks for putting the time in to produce it.