Krauss-Maffei Diesel Hydraulic Locomotives

[Anonymous]

Please let me know if you have any information about these locomotives. My e-mail address: ([e-mail]) This my first post, and your help is greatly appreciated.

[ericsp]

SP Trainline, the quarterly magazine of the Southern Pacific Historical and Technical Society had an article on these sometime in the last year, although that issue is not yet on the back issue page.

[Anonymous]

Weight: 330,600 lbs
Overall length: 65 ' - 11 5/16 ""
Tractive effort: 90,000 lbs
Max speed: 70 mph
Power: (2) 2000 hp 16 cylinder 4 stroke Maybach MD70 diesel engines
Drive: (2) Voith 3 stage hydraulic transmissions, geared to a "C" style bogie


In 1961, DRGW took delivery of 3 units and SP received another 3.

SP was more impressed with the units than DRGW, and after the initial 200,000 miles DRGW sold their 3 to SP, who then bought another 15 units in 1963.


The first 6 were "cowl" or carbody type, while the second batch of 15 were of the "hood" design.

[M636C]

A number of locomotives very similar to the second group of SP locomotives was built for the metre gauge Vitoria a Minas line (CVRD) in Brazil. These were about the same in every respect except gauge. They have since been replaced by four axle diesel electric locomotives, EMD DDM45 and GE Dash 9s (on BB+BB trucks). The small size of the final drive meant that full power (3500 to 4000HP) could be transmitted on six axles rather than eight, which was needed for the number of narrow gauge traction motors, not the axle load.

M636C

[SSW9389]

Joaquin, I just sent you an article on the subject. K-Ms rock!

[tree68]

Check the Trains Index (Index of Magazines - at the top of this page) - Trains did a substantial story on the KM's some years ago. There was also some discussion of the "ALCohaulics," IIRC. You may be able to get the article from Trains or locate the issue.

[Paul Milenkovic]

This topic has come up before, but I remember reading someplace, cannot remember if it was Trains or it was a railroading trade magazine, the the KM hydraulic drive had the three axles on each truck mechanically connected to rotate together. That feature gave it better adhesion because it averaged the adhesion of the three axles rather than allowed the most slippery axle to slip as with independent traction motors on each axle.

That was a liability for the maintenance shop because they had to keep the wheels all the same diameter within a millimeter as opposed to a Diesel electric where the wheel diameters are allowed to be machined to different sizes as they wear. I have always wondered if that was a problem with the steam locomotive, which of course had mechanically connected driving wheels and why the railroads having dealt with connected drives on steam would suddenly throw up their hands maintaining the wheels on the Diesel hydraulic. And the EMD AC units have a single inverter per truck and have an electrical connection that requires wheels rotating at the same rate.

I am guessing here, but as far as D&RGW and KM's, every Diesel is different and you have to learn its quirks to maintain it correctly, and the KM was an exotic foreign import -- kind of like trying to get service on your Mercedes far outside the big city.

The other consideration is simply the question of a hydraulic vs an electric drive. Every non-direct drive involves energy transfers resulting in some loss, that loss is in the form of heat, and every drive can be burnt up from abuse. A friend was telling me about using his Chevy Suburban to haul a trailer of telephone poles for use in a retaining wall on his land and how he burned up the transmission doing this. You can burn up an electric drive, but the limits of short-time ratings and ammeter readings are more or less understood. The capabilities and restrictions of the hydraulic drive perhaps less so.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Here's some links related to the Brazilian KM's.
http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~efbrazil/efvm.html
This covers the EF Vitoria a Minas, long famous for its 8-axle power and running big trains on meter gauge, envision DMIR in the tropics.
http://www.trem.org.br/lista01/iglvm02.htm
This is in Portuguese but it does give b/n's and dispositions of the KM's.

[samfp1943]

One of the stories circulated in the Middle 1960's was that the K-M's were sort of "Hangar Queens" [ railroad terminology???] ,not to mention the problems as Paul stated above. Supposedly,they did not fare well in the operating environment of tunnels and a dust dirty operating environment got sensitive air filtering equipment, not to mention more than likely, shopmen who were unfamiliar with "foreign" equipment and its intracies and not really willing to learn.

Sam

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

... "Hangar Queens" [ railroad terminology???] ...

Airplane terminology for an airplane that never makes it out of the hangar, and sometimes is used to scavange parts from to keep the others running....

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

One of the stories circulated in the Middle 1960's was that the K-M's were sort of "Hangar Queens" [ railroad terminology???]

Shop Queen sounds familiar. I would think that the term "Roundhouse Queen" would exist, however I do not recall ever hearing that term.

I forgot about Richard Percy's MK ML-4000 page last night.

[MStLfan]

KM's ML-4000's are mechanically an offshoot of Deutsche Bundesbahn class V200's build by Krauss Maffei and Maschinenfabrik Kiel. Later they were classed as Baureihe (BR) 220 and 221.
The machines build for the US and Brazil differ externally from the German, British, Yugoslav and Spanish ones. Internally they are more or less the same.

The German magazine Eisenbahn Journal did a special issue (1/2005) on the V200 and there is a Spanish book about their version with a couple of pictures of the American machines.
greetings
Marc Immeker

[TH&B]

The British "Warships" didn't last long and the "Westerns" took a long time to get over their teething troubles. Were any of these mainline deisel hydrolics successfull anywhere outside of Germany.

[MStLfan]

I think they lasted 20 years in Spain.
There were also various subtypes for the TALGO trains. They ran even longer.
greetings,
Marc Immeker

[Anonymous]

This is just a note to say "Thanks" to all of you who have responded to my request for information about the K-M Locomotives. Also, please feel free to contact me via e-mail.

[Anonymous]

The British Rail "Warship" diesel-hydraulics lasted from 1958-1972 according to the Wikipedia article, not a bad lifespan. Their real problem was the desire of BR to standardise on diesel-electric, so anything non standard didn't last long. Germany, on the other hand, decided to standardise on diesel-hydraulic and seems to have done rather well with it judging by the sizable number of locos so fitted.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marcimmeker

I think they lasted 20 years in Spain.
There were also various subtypes for the TALGO trains. They ran even longer.
greetings,
Marc Immeker

One of the Spanish Diesel hydraulic locos is on display at the Spanish National Railway Museum in Madrid.

[Flint Hills Tex]

I started a thread on this topic last year and got a lot of interesting replies. For some reason, it doesn't seem to be archived anywhere, or I just don't know how to access it. Maybe somebody else will have more luck.

[Philcal]

In the late 50's both the SP and DRG&W were really looking for road power, and the KMs seemed to be the answer. A single KM unit produced more horsepower than it's EMD. ALCO, or GE counterpart. The KM's were diesel hydraulic, and this ended up being a part of their problems on American railroads. The German technicians who accompanied the units were astounded at the American practice of running the units 24 plus hours per day , with stops only for fuel,water, inspections, and crew changes. It was this constant running, plus some of the climate extremes encountered in Western railroading, that spelled the demise of the KM's on the SP, and the Rio Grande. Make no mistake about it, the KM's were fine locomotives. They simply weren't suited for the conditions encountered in the American West.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Compared to North American practice, European motive power spends an incredible amount of time in shop. Vernon L. Smith addressed this issue quite well in his rebuttal of an article arguing that the best steam locomotives were built in France. French locomotives were efficient in their use of steam but they were usually assigned to a specific crew and required a lot of maintenance. Smith stated that American locomotives were not as highly engineered or efficient but spent more time producing ton-miles and that this was the true test of how good a locomotive was.

[Anonymous]

Good Afternoon Forum Members:

This is just a note to thank all of you for your responses to my inquiries regarding the Krauss-Maffei Locomotives! All of your comments have been very helpful in my quest to accumulate as much information as possible about these unique engines. Also, please feel free to contact me using my e-mail address if you would like to receive a direct reply from me. [e-mail]

[rrandb]

In 9/64 ALCO produced 3 model DN-643 4300 hp diesel hydraulic C-C locomotives for the SP. They used 2/12 cylinder 251c motors. These used a Voith hydraulic transmission produced under licence from the German company. They were scrapped in 1973. The 1961 K-M's were built with straight pneumatic controlls which SP converted to electro-pneumatic so they could be MUed to their other diesels. The 1963 units were supplied with an adapted ALCO trimount truck unlike the 1961 models which had a K-M design. Facts from Louis A. Marre "Diesel Locomotives: The First Fifty Years". [2c] As always ENJOY

[caldreamer]

I just bought a Krauss Mauffei N scale shell. I am waiting for it to arrive. It will be painted in my railroad colors. Never saw this in N scale before. Interesting diesel.

[Former Car Maintainer]

It would seem to me that modern day, diesel electrics with electronic inverters would certainly negate the possible benefits of a hydraulic drive. Except, electronic inverter technology was not available when the diesel-hydraulic was shelved. Must have been the maintenance complexity of the plumbing ,complex gear box/drive shaft assemblies on the bogies, wheel cutting limitations, and awkward MU compatibility.  In theory, the hydraulic drive should have provided better adhesion, nil wheel slip, a true throttled vs stepped speed control, and elimination of traction motor repair. Wonder if the Niles Canyon has practical information on them?

[caldreamer]

The Kruas Maeffi ML4000's were very complicated and needed a lot of maintence.  They spent a lot of time in the shops because they were so complicated.  This information came from a roundhouse foreman that I knew.  His crew worked on them.

 

[Former Car Maintainer]

I looked at the work now being performed to restore one of these locomotives at the Niles Canyon Museum. Multiple drive shafts/universal joints/gear boxes and hydraulic transmission. Quite a contraption. I guess it depended on what broke and how often, and whether the failures were induced by operational demands beyond its design. At first glance it wouldn't appear to be more difficult to maintain than a diesel electric. Certainly traction motor repair was eliminated. Perhaps it was the three axle bogies and the wheel cutting restrictions. I wonder if the design of the Alco-draulics were copies of ML 4000s. Very little info out there.

[Erik_Mag]

Former Car Maintainer

It would seem to me that modern day, diesel electrics with electronic inverters would certainly negate the possible benefits of a hydraulic drive. Except, electronic inverter technology was not available when the diesel-hydraulic was shelved.

Correct on both points.

The traction alternator/rectifier/inverter/AC motor arrangement has the advantages of both being mechanically simpler and more efficient than the diesel hydraulic drive. Combine this with nearly instantaneous response to traction control signals, the achievabke coefficient of adhesion is also better than the hydraulics.

The key breakthrough in inverter technology was the development of IGBT's that were large enough for use in a locomotive. The inverter per axle eliminated the requirement for tight control on wheel diameter that was needed for the diesel hydraulics and the inverter per axle implementations with GTO Thyristors.

[SD70Dude]

How often did SP have to change the transmission fluid or rebuild them?  How did this compare to the cost of replacing brushes etc and rebuilding traction motors?  

SP seems to have eventually standardized on the 3000 to 3600 HP diesel-electric units that entered production in the mid to late 1960s.  

[Former Car Maintainer]

About maintenance,

Found this quote on maintenance of this locomotive

"talked to a former SP trainman, he mentioned the bleeding obvious as to why the Alcohaulics outlasted the K-M units but left so soon: maintenance. The DH643 had numerous parts that were interchangeable with other Alco road units (esp. RS11's, C628s). Whereas the KM's were orphan-engined and required metric tooling. The transmission was the primary reason for retirement, lack of parts." 

 

Joined

[tree68]

I read somewhere that there was some concern (among crews?) about that big shaft spinning under one's feet as you sat in the cab.