Bird's eye view of Rockville Bridge near Harrisburg Pa....

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Monday, May 1, 2006 8:59 PM


Check the date on this panaramic photo. It is the Mellons Railroad station in Ligionier, Pa. Just east of Idlewild Park. The school board office owns this now and occupies it for such school activities meetings.

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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, May 1, 2006 9:40 PM
Great photos....The second sepia photo in more modern days {if I place this photo correctly}, would have a coal tower station right behind the engine in the photo.
And oh the beautiful white stone depot....That building and I go back quite a few years. I was in an upstairs office at night where one could see the red or green light on the outside of the building signaling out the track towards the round house and yard...
I have many photos of that building. Used to watch the doodlebug come in for a stop in late afternoon and drop off the Latrobe Bulletin Paper....
And those white buildings in the right side of the depot pic had a track right to their loading platform.
Again, in the 2nd sepia toned pic, would be a brick round house in later years and still later yet, that round house would become a Catholic school building. Had an aunt and great aunt that lived right behind it.
Ligonier....one of my favorite places I've ever been. Just look at their {Ligonier's web site}, and read the posts of former residents or people who have visited and listen to their attitudes and opinions of the town...Almost all want to come back to live or visit....!
But I liked it even more when the railroad was still acitve and present. Last run was August 1952. I received a paper sent from Florida from a daughter of the engineer who run the last train before it was ended. I was gone to visit Uncle Sam that very month and couldn't be there. Seems he had a job for me to do across the Pacific.

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Monday, May 1, 2006 10:05 PM
As soon as I find the Cd, I have a shot of the train at a WYE just where I am standing. The photo was taken from either the upstairs window or maybe the roof. A train is merging onto the curve to go to Fort Palmer. B&W of course. Will try to find it tomorrow.

Good Night!

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:35 AM
http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=latr02se.jpg&state=PA

Here is the 1902 map of the Ligionier Valley Railroad alignment from Latrobe to Idlewild Park. Note the station stops.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:43 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by southpennrailroad

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=latr02se.jpg&state=PA

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=nflr22sw.jpg&state=PA

Here is the 1902 map of the Ligionier Valley Railroad alignment from Latrobe to Idlewild Park. Note the station stops.

The second map is the Feeder to Fort Palmer Coke Mines from Ligionier where a deadly train accident occoured at Denny's bend.

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:40 AM
Maps indicate there were more coal mines served out in the Wilpen area than I had heard of before. Seems the run to Wilpen is the one I always heard of but looking at the top. map I see at least a half-dozen mines in that general area in various little bergs.
Item: One can {currently}, see various buildings in Ligonier near the depot and along Main st. that are built at an angle to the street, etc....Evidence of the tracks that formed the wye in that area. Until the last year or so the area right north of Main st. at the former rail yards had paved walkways right on the old ROW heading back past the coaling tower, etc....Some kind of renovation of that area was under way during my last visit and was changing the make up of it.....Must check it out later this month.

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Posted by doghouse on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 10:31 AM
Southpenn, have you ever superimposed the Turnpike route over the South Penn route?
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 2:40 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by doghouse

Southpenn, have you ever superimposed the Turnpike route over the South Penn route?



That is an interesting thought.

I have heard that some of the roads in Arkansas were once part of some abandoned railroads. [:(]

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:00 PM
That would be interesting to see but wonder if two sets of maps in the same scale can be produced to do so....
In some places one will be on top of the other and climbing the mountain ranges {about seven major ones}, the railroad was more circutious because of the difference of one was to use 2% and the other {the Turnpike}, did use 3% max. grade.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by doghouse

Southpenn, have you ever superimposed the Turnpike route over the South Penn route?



That is an interesting thought.

I have heard that some of the roads in Arkansas were once part of some abandoned railroads. [:(]




Trust me the though occoured but how to do it is a good deal hard for me. I truly want that done.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Maps indicate there were more coal mines served out in the Wilpen area than I had heard of before. Seems the run to Wilpen is the one I always heard of but looking at the top. map I see at least a half-dozen mines in that general area in various little bergs.
Item: One can {currently}, see various buildings in Ligonier near the depot and along Main st. that are built at an angle to the street, etc....Evidence of the tracks that formed the wye in that area. Until the last year or so the area right north of Main st. at the former rail yards had paved walkways right on the old ROW heading back past the coaling tower, etc....Some kind of renovation of that area was under way during my last visit and was changing the make up of it.....Must check it out later this month.


Stand By in the proces of loading on such house in a photo up to photo bucket.



These buildings are sitting angled to the road and just between them was the PW&S alignment.



The station looking west towards Latrobe via Idlewild Park and along route 30 Lincoln Highway.

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 9:24 PM
Enjoyed those shots Russ. The opening for the PW&S...if in eastern LIgonier, I know about where it would have to be.
The sepia toned photo with coal train acivity would most likely be from the top of the station. There was an exit to the roof because during WWII there was an airplane spotting post up on there.
There is a shot of a LVRR engine on the internet taken in 1940. At the moment can't tell you just where but it is. It is parked to the back of the round house across the street as the tracks head toward Wilpen, etc....It is sitting on a siding and in storage because it has a cap over the smoke stack. In that pic. I noted some houses across the way behind it {north west}, and several summers ago just for the heck of it I stopped at that location to see if i could find the house roof in the background and sure enough, I did...
Took a pic of it and the roof profile still was the same as it was in 1940...! No revisions.
If you care to find that photo simply enter LVRR in some search engines, etc...and it's on a page with other steam engines...click on it and it becomes full page in size.

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 10:29 PM


In my travels and asking questions from the mountain people, I had one actually find it interesting what I was doing and he invited me into his home just to show me what he purchased in a auction when the station in Allenvale was sold off. It is the clock that was hanging in the small station in that mountain top town. By the way it was 100 years ago this year that the PW&S actually started operating over the mountain. Ten years from now it would cease. I wonder if I will be around for that date.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 6:33 AM


This bridge in Wheeling WV. was not yet built in 1885 when Vanderbilt was ceasing to build the South Pennsylvania Railroad to Wheeling his intended destination. Because of this Vanderbilt was persuaded by Carnegie to make what was then a branch line to Pittsburgh to become his main destination. This bridge is now gone but existed between 1890 -1990. Only stone piers that are laying on both Ohio river banks show where it once existed. This bridge belongd to the Wheeling Terminal RR. The South Penn however was not going to utilize the two stil existing tunnels behind the photographer but would have merged onto this bridge from the left side of the cliff. They were going to build their own tunnel just a short piece to the south. (Street named Northern Parkway). They had also plans to curve southward into Wheeling. GOTO: southpennrailroad.com and click on the REPORT button to read this in Oliver Barne's report to the South Pennsylvania Railroad investers of 1884. Tonight, I will up load a new photo I took yeasterday of this site as it looks today.

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Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:11 AM
Enjoyed both photos. The bridge span at the right side of the photo, seems to be a very unusual sort of design. Look at the bracing next to the vertical right side...Angle bracing to stablize the right side of bridge structure, hence making the structure more rigid.
And the Regulator Clock...! Even has a date telling hand...Pretty rare.
Item: To the best of my knowledge....I HAVE the regulator clock that hung in the white stone depot in Ligonier....! I have 3 regulator clocks and just two are in use here in our home....One of them right here in this home office....All 3 of them work. I have the "Ligonier Depot" clock wrapped up and simply in storage. It works and I didn't even have to have it "fixed" when I got it about 20 or so years ago. When I got it home out here, I simply put it on the wall and wound it to see what would happen and wow...., it simply started and kept time. It's a pretty long story of how I got it but I believe the trail of it is actual and genuine.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 1:38 PM
I was amazed that the person living in Allenvale had such an item. I found out who makes these clock today and they are from Canada. I'll list the web page. here.

http://www.BradleyWoodworks.com

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 3:56 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Enjoyed both photos. The bridge span at the right side of the photo, seems to be a very unusual sort of design. Look at the bracing next to the vertical right side...Angle bracing to stablize the right side of bridge structure, hence making the structure more rigid.
And the Regulator Clock...! Even has a date telling hand...Pretty rare.
Item: To the best of my knowledge....I HAVE the regulator clock that hung in the white stone depot in Ligonier....! I have 3 regulator clocks and just two are in use here in our home....One of them right here in this home office....All 3 of them work. I have the "Ligonier Depot" clock wrapped up and simply in storage. It works and I didn't even have to have it "fixed" when I got it about 20 or so years ago. When I got it home out here, I simply put it on the wall and wound it to see what would happen and wow...., it simply started and kept time. It's a pretty long story of how I got it but I believe the trail of it is actual and genuine.


I've been back to that mans house three times just to get better photos of that clock. Now with a better camera I think I got the best shot yet. He also has told stories of how when the train would be stuck in the winter snow storms how they woud take in passengers for the night. In return the engineers would take produce to market the next year free of charge for the farmers who took in passengers and helped the train crews. I understand that the owner highly frowed upon this but understood and often ignored what was happening. The engineers would carry the goods in his engine room and made sure the goods got to the correct reciever.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 4:15 PM


Bud Shuster Grade!

Yes even our state senator fom Pennsylvania has a section of the South Pennsylvania Railroad he has to pass through every time he goes and comes from home. I explored his grade or outside his home property in Everett, Pa and his is a very fasinating site. First the unfiished fill is almost three stories high and walking out towards the east along this grade, is showing an incomplete grade. This grade is alongside the Juniata River and on very steep slope just above the river. This photo shows that their is just no foot hold along this slope. I actually walked outonto the area where the grade should be dug into a hillside but no way a ledge could be built here. The picture just doesn't show just how bad this area is.

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Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:25 PM
....Does look like rough territory. I have done a lot of fishing down in Bedford Co. at the Juniata river....In the New Baltimore and Manns Choice area and points in between. Another RR went through some of that area too.....Believe it went on down {south}, in that valley beyond Manns Choice and on down to the Cumberland area....Also believe it was part of the Pennsylvania. I remember seeing a train on it down in the M C area about 1950. The route has been abandoned for years now. Have been in that Jean Bonet restaurant within the last several years and that RR passed near there too and If I remember that is also a spot the S P was surveyed to pass near by....

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Posted by FJ and G on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 7:49 PM
Back around 1962 and onward, I used to cvommute from NYC to Harrisburg.

------------------

BTW, wondering what causes some posts to expand to multi-pages; perhaps posts like mine that can relate?
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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Does look like rough territory. I have done a lot of fishing down in Bedford Co. at the Juniata river....In the New Baltimore and Manns Choice area and points in between. Another RR went through some of that area too.....Believe it went on down {south}, in that valley beyond Manns Choice and on down to the Cumberland area....Also believe it was part of the Pennsylvania. I remember seeing a train on it down in the M C area about 1950. The route has been abandoned for years now. Have been in that Jean Bonet restaurant within the last several years and that RR passed near there too and If I remember that is also a spot the S P was surveyed to pass near by....



Again that area of the turnpike is not on the South Penn RofW I have the maps showing the South Penn as being on the flats nesstled against the hillsides. Leaving Bedford it was to be located on the south bank of the Juniata and then cross the river at what is today Manns Choice Campground. The turnpike as you said stayed on the hills to keep any possible chance of getting flooded from the Juniata River. But records indicate it never flooded. I have to ask did ou ever go to the historic Bedford Springs Hotel. It is being renovated for $90,000.000.00. The South Penn was to pass through their property. Letters indicate this as a gold ring in the SPRR collection.

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Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:10 PM
...Oh Yes, in fact was to it just a few years ago. Stopped there and parked and walked around the buildings and grounds. Yes, I've been hearing for years it was to be renovated and the last time I was there nothing was any different and from the condition it was in I wondered if it ever would be brought back to life. It just seemed to be too far gone to try to bring it back....Money, cubic money to do it...
You think they are really going to do it this time....If so, a surprise to me. I can see it was a beautiful place at one time....Believe they kept Japaneese / Americans there during WWII for some time....That is a pretty narrow valley there but I'm sure there would have been room for the S P ROW up through there.
On the S P ROW near the turnpike near that area where 30 and 31 meet I have seen what looks like a "cut" up on the Pike near that overpass for the Turnpike over Rt. 30 and was thinking for years that is what it looked like to me....Wasn't sure....But again at that location, there was plenty of room in the valley for the S P to have been directed up through there towards Manns Choice. Have you ever noted the old covered bridge just north of Manns Choice that carried a dirt road over the Juniata....If so, that is one place we used to park the car when we fished in that area.

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:32 PM
Tomorrow I will up load the photo I took of the work being done.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:44 PM
I'm up loading it to Photo bucket now. It will be up by tomorrow. It shows work crews at the siite. Dozers and ther material.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:00 PM






Map from the South Penn surveyors. This was not done with survey equipment but eyes only

(Letter was the surce that gave this info).

Work being done at the edford Springs Hotel

Letter talking about the value of reaching this historic site.

All photos and information is catagorized on two sets of CD's with over 3,700 documented sites and letters and maps and any other items needed to make a walk across the state from Harrisburg to Pittsurgh or any where else the South Penn was to have built on.

southpennrailroad.com

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:13 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Oh Yes, in fact was to it just a few years ago. Stopped there and parked and walked around the buildings and grounds. Yes, I've been hearing for years it was to be renovated and the last time I was there nothing was any different and from the condition it was in I wondered if it ever would be brought back to life. It just seemed to be too far gone to try to bring it back....Money, cubic money to do it...
You think they are really going to do it this time....If so, a surprise to me. I can see it was a beautiful place at one time....Believe they kept Japaneese / Americans there during WWII for some time....That is a pretty narrow valley there but I'm sure there would have been room for the S P ROW up through there.
On the S P ROW near the turnpike near that area where 30 and 31 meet I have seen what looks like a "cut" up on the Pike near that overpass for the Turnpike over Rt. 30 and was thinking for years that is what it looked like to me....Wasn't sure....But again at that location, there was plenty of room in the valley for the S P to have been directed up through there towards Manns Choice. Have you ever noted the old covered bridge just north of Manns Choice that carried a dirt road over the Juniata....If so, that is one place we used to park the car when we fished in that area.


That cut is not he South Penn it would more then likely have been built by the B&B. The South Penn at that site was still across route 31as well as the Juniata River in that site just east of Manns Choice. When I was just learning about the South Penn and before I had the maps, I to though that cut was South Penn. No work was done from just east of the Everett Cemetery to west of New Baltimore.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 10:15 PM
Covered bridge is still there at Mans Choice. On the same note, New Baltimore Covered Bridge was destroyed but rebuilt in 2000.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Thursday, May 4, 2006 6:19 AM


Here is the 1883 South Pennsylvania Railroad survey map of the Manns Choice area you are mentioning. Look for the thinner lines drawnmore towards the center of the map as the dark one or more noticable one is the Pennsy B&B line from Bedford to Hyndman. For those who don't know the area, or just know that theturnpike was built here as well, The turnpike is notusing the railroad right of way but is just north and alongside of it.

PS if any of these are not viewable or hard to look at please contact me and ask for a e-mail version. My photo host, Photo bucket compresses them to this size. I can send you one in a larger size.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Thursday, May 4, 2006 6:38 AM


An old topographic map that I drew both the turnpike and the South Penn right of way onto. Green for the turnpike, Red for the railroad. Notice I have the green arrows facing east as that is the way I always travel to explore the South Penn. The South Penn arrows are traveling west as I found this is the best way to explain the route in my CD. I tried to explore from my home eastward, but that was like working against the grain. If you read the 1884 report, it runs from east to west.

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Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, May 4, 2006 9:57 AM
....Interesting stuff on the maps Russ. Thanks for sharing. I pretty much can follow all on these two maps as I've been in these areas many, many times. Used to run engineering tests {for my Co. of employment}, on some of those routes, particularly on Rt. 31 over White Horse mtn. down through the valley {east}, to Rt. 30 and then west up and over several mtn. ridges to Jennerstown...our base of operations and then over to Somerset and on out 31 to top of white Horse which completed the loop. We ran several loops but that was a main one in the area. Russ, do you ever remember in years past of seeing Mong's Esso Station there on Rt. 30 at Stoystown....Was my family.

Quentin

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