Bird's eye view of Rockville Bridge near Harrisburg Pa....

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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 24, 2006 6:26 PM
Russ....In your photo of the South Penn grade leading to the Sideling Hill portal...and you note for us to see the railroad grade is higher than the Turnpike road way as it approaches the portal....My observation is this: The South Penn was using a max gradient of 2% and the Turnpike was using a max of 3% so...it would make sense the 2% grade would be approaching the portal in a flatter plane......

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Monday, April 24, 2006 6:37 PM
You have to be their and see the height of the grade. Also the grade according to the turnpike is a little like the approach to the Laurel Hill Tunnel as the actual center of the railroad grade would be more towards the maintenance doors. I will try to upload the profile view. The distance is too short for a blacktop turnpike meeting with the railroad grade. Remember also that the rails and ballast are or were never added to this railroad. Put them in and the South Penn grade is even higher.

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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 24, 2006 6:44 PM
....The only thing I am relating is the South Penn is or had to take a more circuitous route to arrive at this point getting ready to enter the tunnel bore and being up in elevation and approaching the opening on a flatter grade. The Turnpike is approaching at it's max 3% grade so is still lower and rising as it approaches the portal.

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Monday, April 24, 2006 6:55 PM
This is a very close, iffy topic. I am saying that the turnpike most of the time cut lower the railroad tunnel to enlarge the opening to allow for truck traffic and ventilation to work together. Except for the east portal of the Rays Hill tunnel which has not ventilation atop its portal.

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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, April 24, 2006 7:22 PM
Yes, I follow you Russ.....We find the Turnpike did not use the precise surveyed route that was completed by the RR surveyors....They found they could take some of the curvature out of the Turnpike design by adopting the 3% in place of the 2% grades the railroad was held to so it did produce a different exact ROW. The 2% grade required a more circuitous route to maintain that grade hence the Turnpike and the railroad did not find the same exact layout for their route placement.

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Posted by dwil89 on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:39 AM
This is all quite interesting....I also find it interesting that somebody has gone into so much detail and research to study and document the history of the South Penn Railroad, and its significance to the construction of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:53 AM
The bridge once had catenary for electric freight operation into and out of Enola Yard. But I remember catenary on all tracks. Are the switches that permitted trains on any of the tracks to enter Enola still in place at the west end of the bridge?
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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 5:56 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

This is all quite interesting....I also find it interesting that somebody has gone into so much detail and research to study and document the history of the South Penn Railroad, and its significance to the construction of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.


Ten years ago I read William Shanks Book, Vanderbilt's Folly and Dan Cuppers Book, the Pennsylvania Turnpike A History and they being a small book only touched lightly on the railroad subject. In fact most web pages because the authors don't know that all kinds of material exist to help them explore the SPRR do not go far into detail about it. These web pages though good, quickly enter into the turnpike issue and again your left with a void not knowing that this railroad is a very learning experience. They, at least Shanks book gave mile markers and thats what I began stuudying. Little by little I went out exploring. And after a short while I found that I was collecting a lot of material (photos) and decided to document it. Soon I went out into diffrent locations and realized it was possible to just fill in the gaps. And then a little while later I came across the maps. These maps completed and even expanded my research into areas even you would never dream the South Penn would travel into. I have the Marysville map, Confluence to Connellsvillle, California Pa to West Virginia line. The EBT/Shade Gap suggested alignment made bythe South Penn to the Tuscarora Tunnels and other South Penn Maps. Bridge drawings, Tunnel drawings and I plan on getting more. Office sites, Correspondance letters, Elevation River /creek crossings. As I get the documents, I paste them in their proper location in my 4 volume CD.I even produce my own book for bathroom reading material. I guarentee you will be amazed as to what is in that CD set. 3,700 plus items Just to rumagethrough the over 130 chapters takes a day. That is without reading the descriptions for each photo.

Then, I of course have a job, and go out to the sites to re-photograph them. Diffrent scenes for diffrent weather. I still kick over leaves for new things. Kinda like you looking for spikes. I have to get in touch with the turnpike to get special permission to enter questionable sites. I explore the turnpike tunnels as well as the remaining railroad tunnels. When I access private property I have to get to talk to the owners, that takes time even though I try to get them to go with me that saves a little time. Exploring the South Penn is really fun. I maintain my web page and now writting on this forum is fun but time consuming.

Think about this. Western Maryland never made it into Pennsylvania until 1906 but I have South Penn maps showing almost the same location that the Western Maryland line is or was on in the Confluence and Ohio Pyle to Connellsville alignment. Of course I have the 1884 report which is on line as well. All diffrent items to discover the whereabouts of the South Penn. The line that is the Pa. Turnpike from Donegal to Pittsburgh was not the main line as most would believe. It was actually an insignifacant branch line. How about just outside the east Portal of the Tuscaoroa Tunnel that was the more important line to Maryland to Hagerstown branch to make connection with the Western Maryland at Hagrstown where Western Maryland was stuck at. That is the furthest west of Baltimore they were in 1883. They had mentioned they wanted to make connection with the Shanndoah RR at that site. I am still amazed as to how much I amassed . However I only do the South Penn. I have others who try and get me involved in other lines but I have politly declined to get into. Stick to one subject I do. How about the line was to pass through White Oak in Allegheny County. To connect with Port Perry on the Mon River. All the maps. 120 years it sat. To long to keep it a secret. With the computerit is now able to written about toothers to enjoy this abandoned route. I have truck drivers who bought my Cd and have conveyed to me that they don't travel the pike the same anymore. That is scarry when you think about it.

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:44 AM
...You mean they drive the Turnpike and constantly are looking out the side to follow the South Penn...Hmmm.....I understand that, I've done that for years driving and trying to follow the twists and turns of the South Penn alignments. As the years add up mother nature is doing her best to hide it from such a vantage point....
The Somerset area has some rough terrain for it to have passed through....At that point it is surveyed through a high plateau between Allegheny and Laurel Hill territory. It required deep cuts and massive fills...more so than one normally sees on railroad ROW designs. I continue to see referrence to double track in publications but most of the cuts and fills I've seen do not support that by their size.
If it would have been completed and fostered a real railroad across Pennsylvania at that location.....we probably would not have the Pennsylvania Turnpike now as we know it....Wonder what might have developed in it's place....The Turnpike project was a combination of needing to put people to work and having the available {RR ROW}, to use to create a massive modern highway across Pennsylvania to update to a better route across the perpendicular mountain ranges than Rt.s 30 and 40 offered.

Quentin

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:54 AM
Dave....I too am thinking maybe we should not be posting so much on a RR project that's different from your original subject....Say the word and I'll back away....I must confess the SP RR is a fascinating subject to me.

Quentin

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Posted by paulstecyna21 on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 9:01 AM
those are some very nice pictures guys.
HAIL TO THE PHOTOGRAPHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg
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Posted by dwil89 on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:02 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

The bridge once had catenary for electric freight operation into and out of Enola Yard. But I remember catenary on all tracks. Are the switches that permitted trains on any of the tracks to enter Enola still in place at the west end of the bridge?
The switches are still in place though there is a pretty good complex of trackage on that end...There is a subway, where inbound and outbound trains for Enola can dive under the approach to the Bridge if they are headed to or from the West. So one train can be coming in or out at track level of the Bridge while another can be diving underneath it via the subway. In the original pic at top of post, the rear of the train can be seen curving around to the left....it is coming onto the Bridge from out of Enola Yard.....I was reading that the Bridge was built before Enola Yard was built, so for a period of time, trains crossing West over the bridge that wanted to go to Enola had to head off the Bridge toward Marysville and then reverse back to Enola before trackage was added to allow trains to run forward off the Bridge to Enola..
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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:02 PM
I added this 1890 topographic map showing what else? the Rockville bridge, and its approaches to it.



Enjoy!

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Posted by dwil89 on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:18 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by southpennrailroad

I added this 1890 topographic map showing what else? the Rockville bridge, and its approaches to it.



Enjoy!
That would be showing the 2nd Rockville Bridge....the Iron Structure which was replaced with the current stone arch structure in 1902...
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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:23 PM
So is this the bridge which piers are still seen just north ofthe present bridge?

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:28 PM
....Can't seem to enlarge the map picture...

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Can't seem to enlarge the map picture...


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/Harrisburg1890map.jpg



try this

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Posted by dwil89 on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:43 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by southpennrailroad

So is this the bridge which piers are still seen just north ofthe present bridge?
Yes....I posted a pic of a train on it earlier up in this thread...
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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:43 PM
Yes, thanks....that worked.

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:46 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

QUOTE: Originally posted by southpennrailroad

So is this the bridge which piers are still seen just north ofthe present bridge?
Yes....I posted a pic of a train on it earlier up in this thread...


ThanksSo this is the one the South Penn was to cross alongside. southpennrailroad 1881-1885

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:57 PM
...A photo in a book I have has a view of the SP RR pylons appearing to be constructed of large shaped stone and capped with a large concrete top. In the background {on the left}, is a stone arch bridge all the way across the Susquehanna River and a city or town is visible on the other side of the river. Photo by William M. Metzger and in my "South Pennsylvania Railroad" book by Walter F. Walton. I don't know if that is a pic of the Rockville bridge or not....There is an island near the center of that bridge. Also don't know which side of the river the photo was taken.

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...A photo in a book I have has a view of the SP RR pylons appearing to be constructed of large shaped stone and capped with a large concrete top. In the background {on the left}, is a stone arch bridge all the way across the Susquehana River and a city or town is visible on the other side of the river. Photo by William M. Metzger and in my "South Pennsylvania Railroad" book by Walter F. Walton. I don't know if that is a pic of the Rockville bridge or not....There is an island near the center of that bridge. Also don't know which side of the river the photo was taken.


Can you get a uploaded photo of this pic?

Presently I am uploading a pic of the proposed South Penns Horse Shoe Curve survey map which was to be built just west of the Laurel Hill Mountain and north of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. A section of the tunnel will be includeed in the map to give local. This was a section located in between actual work sites but this site was not begun.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/oldmapm.jpg

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:23 PM
Yes, picture does come up when clicked but is not much larger.....

Quentin

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:27 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Yes, picture does come up when clicked but is not much larger.....


No the picture you have in the Walton Book you described is the one I am interested in viewing. Can you send that photo to me? And if you want the picture larger, I supose I could send it to you via e-mail if you want it. I send them via photo bucket and they must shrink it down. Ask and I will be happy to provide what you want.

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Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:32 PM
Oh, sorry...misunderstood. Will see if we can transmit via scanner of the walton photo. It may be a bit later and might even be tomorrow, but I'll see what we can do....You don't need to bother on the map pic.....I can see it ok....but thanks.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 PM
You are describing Harrisburg not Marysville.

Looking north in this photo, you see the ex-Reading
RR bridge, then the Cumberland Valley RR bridge,
the piers of the Market Street bridge, and finally
the piers of the Walnut Street bridge.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=140218

The South Penn RR bridge was between the much
later ex-Reading bridge and the CV RR bridge.

Looking east from Lemoyne, you see here the capped stone
on one of the surviving piers of the South Penn RR bridge.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=138889


Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...A photo in a book I have has a view of the SP RR pylons appearing to be constructed of large shaped stone and capped with a large concrete top. In the background {on the left}, is a stone arch bridge all the way across the Susquehanna River and a city or town is visible on the other side of the river. Photo by William M. Metzger and in my "South Pennsylvania Railroad" book by Walter F. Walton. I don't know if that is a pic of the Rockville bridge or not....There is an island near the center of that bridge. Also don't know which side of the river the photo was taken.
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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 5:02 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

You are describing Harrisburg not Marysville.

Looking north in this photo, you see the ex-Reading
RR bridge, then the Cumberland Valley RR bridge,
the piers of the Market Street bridge, and finally
the piers of the Walnut Street bridge.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=140218

The South Penn RR bridge was between the much
later ex-Reading bridge and the CV RR bridge.

Looking east from Lemoyne, you see here the capped stone
on one of the surviving piers of the South Penn RR bridge.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=138889


Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...A photo in a book I have has a view of the SP RR pylons appearing to be constructed of large shaped stone and capped with a large concrete top. In the background {on the left}, is a stone arch bridge all the way across the Susquehanna River and a city or town is visible on the other side of the river. Photo by William M. Metzger and in my "South Pennsylvania Railroad" book by Walter F. Walton. I don't know if that is a pic of the Rockville bridge or not....There is an island near the center of that bridge. Also don't know which side of the river the photo was taken.



http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/SPRRPhilaReadingConnection.jpg

Here is a 1883 South Penn survey map of the South Penn entering Harrisburgh via the Reading line and temporarily using the Lebonon Valley station just to the left or north of the Pennsylvania Railroad station and then exiting across the proposed South Penn new Susquehanna River bridge. bridge piers still stading.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 5:13 PM
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/panharrisburg.jpg

Here is a panaramic view of Harrisburg Circa 1906 and shows everythng from the Rockville bridge (left side of photo) to the Reading Bridge to the right. Look close at the base of the Reading for all the piers that are gone today. The ones still standing in the river today are not in this photo, they are outside the photo.

Tracking the William Henry Vanderbilt South Pennsylvania Railroad right of way along the Historic Pennsylvania Turnpike.

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Posted by southpennrailroad on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 5:32 PM
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/WaltonFarmSurvey.jpg



The South Penn was only going to use the Reading terminal until they could get their yards and terminal buildings bult on the west shore of the Susquehanna River. Here is the survey/Deed for the property across the river. If you follow the main road runing north and south from New Cumberland to Market Street, there are several names marked on this deed that are street names today in that area.

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Posted by dwil89 on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 5:46 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by southpennrailroad

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/panharrisburg.jpg

Here is a panaramic view of Harrisburg Circa 1906 and shows everythng from the Rockville bridge (left side of photo) to the Reading Bridge to the right. Look close at the base of the Reading for all the piers that are gone today. The ones still standing in the river today are not in this photo, they are outside the photo.


You describe the Rockville Bridge as being the one of the left in the pic....yet the pic appears to be in downtown Harrisburg....The Rockville Bridge should be further North, away from downtown I would think...
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