I posted this on the MODEL RAILROADER forum and it was suggested that I post it here as well for a wider range of opinions & feedback. -- dlm
Up front, let me point out that I'm a member of the BoD of the Nickel Plate Historical & Technical Society. We are in the midst of trying to find out what brings new members onboard as well as what causes current members to allow their memberships to lapse. So I'm asking each of you who read this to share why you are or why you aren't a member of your favorite railroad's historical society.
The board of the NKPHTS feels that the future of most "fallen flag" historical society will be modeling so this forum seems like a great place to get some answers regarding membership. We obviously see that employees of a railroad that exissted sixty years ago are becoming more and more scarse. Even sons and daughters of those folks aren't really all that plentiful any more. So the connection to the NKP is through modeling that road. Many manufacturers have helped along those lines and today, there are more and more models being produced of smaller, older lines instead of just those larger ones. The NKPHTS tries very hard to cater to the needs of modelers as does other historical societies and, while model railroading still seems to be a popular pasttime, potential members for ANY historical society seem to be fewer and fewer.
So kindly share your thoughts on joining or not joining the historical society of your favorite railroad, past or present.
Thanks!
Dan Merkel, NKPHTS Special Projects Director.
danmerkelSo kindly share your thoughts on joining or not joining the historical society of your favorite railroad, past or present.
I don't model, so I don't have much interest in most historical societies that are mostly model-based.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I am a member of the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society and I very much appreciate all that they do. They just had their annual convention in Albuquerque which I was unable to attend due to Ninety-Two years of the things which have disabled me.
I'm a member of the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society. I joined for the nostalgia, and information, I don't have available from other sources. This may be true of older generations as well. Being an "elder" millennial, It's enjoyable to rekindle memories, looking back on the final decade of SP 1986-1996.
Concerning current generations, social media is your best bet.
I would opine that many railway historical organizations are suffering the same fate as may SPAAMFAA (Society for the Preservation and Appreciation of Antique Motorized Fire Apparatus in America) - few youngsters are interested in preserving old fire trucks. Most chapters are made up of older veteran firefighters. I know of several local fire departments wherein those with an eye to history have dealt with a younger generation who thinks they should just get rid of that old junk.
What is probably the original SPAAMFAA chapter, Syracuse, is virtually gone because most of its members have passed away. I suspect that more than one local railroad historical association has suffered the same fate.
As for modelers - they may be the future of historical associations if they can continue to provide a rationale for modeling fallen flags. For many fallen flags, those with first hand knowledge of them are rapidly joining the ranks of steam locomotives - gone.
Having available archives (physical and on-line) is an important consideration. That's where today's youngsters reside.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Most chapters are made up of older veteran firefighters. I know of several local fire departments wherein those with an eye to history have dealt with a younger generation who thinks they should just get rid of that old junk.
The older members remember when that "old junk" was in service. The younger generation doesn't.
Same with RR societies. The older stuff and roadnames is not going to be relevant to people that were born after the demise of Conrail and creation of BNSF. I suspect many historical societies are going to end up disappearing over the next decade or 2. I checked with one that I was a member for a few years back a while ago - not much activity. Same people running it, and their events schedule is blank. Save for the oddball train show, I don't even know what they do anymore.
zugmann tree68 Most chapters are made up of older veteran firefighters. I know of several local fire departments wherein those with an eye to history have dealt with a younger generation who thinks they should just get rid of that old junk. The older members remember when that "old junk" was in service. The younger generation doesn't. Same with RR societies. The older stuff and roadnames is not going to be relevant to people that were born after the demise of Conrail and creation of BNSF. I suspect many historical societies are going to end up disappearing over the next decade or 2. I checked with one that I was a member for a few years back a while ago - not much activity. Same people running it, and their events schedule is blank. Save for the oddball train show, I don't even know what they do anymore.
tree68 Most chapters are made up of older veteran firefighters. I know of several local fire departments wherein those with an eye to history have dealt with a younger generation who thinks they should just get rid of that old junk.
You can't understand where you are, unless you know where you have been and where your predecessors were.
Those that don't learn the lessons of history are bound to repeat the mistakes.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDThose that don't learn the lessons of history are bound to repeat the mistakes.
Learning history is not the same as being able to support an active historical society.
I am a member of two historical societies: New York Central and NY Ontario & Western. The latter is notable because they have not turned a wheel in nearly 70 years, and almost the entire ROW was abandoned. For them at least, it does not seem to matter that there are few people alive that actually saw them run (I was born 7 years after abandonment).
Both of them seem to be well and active. The NYC has an annual convention, puts out a quarterly magazine (print and online), and puts out a quarterly modeling publication (online only). They sell a decent variety of NYC merchandise, including model RR stuff, through their website. The O&W also has an annual picnic and holds regular "Zoom" meetings where someone does a program of some kind. They don't sell merchandise that I know of, but have an extensive web site with a lot of articles.
Having modeling resources is probably important to help fill out the membership roster. I have utilized the O&W archives to obtain plans for their Oneida Station, which I used to scratch build a model. Also, both societies make a lot of print publications available. The O&W does an especially good job at this, as most years members get a book of some sort as part of their membership.
For me at least, both of them provide a lot of value, and I'll keep being a member as long as they can keep it up.
I guess every society needs a 'hook' of some kind. I'm mightily impressed by Friends of the East Broad Top. I know if I lived closer I'd be involved in a heartbeat. As it is I'm an active member of our local Model Railway Club and Yes, it is a struggle to maintain let alone increase membership. We've had some success attracting older members. Younger members are fewer. Our young members are in their late thirties and are quite active but younger than that.....we're not so successful. We have had some in their teens twenties join but they fall away. I wonder if it isn't partly because the majority of us are older and they may find us overwhelming. We do work at encouraging their interest. Retention is another matter. We still try and recruit at local train shows.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
I was a member of the Pennsylvania and Soo Line historical societies at one point. I lost interest in the Soo Line one after they were merged into CP. I went to their convention once in the Twin Ports and had a good time. I don't remember why I quit the PRR club, since I really liked them. Maybe I'll give them another try. The Anthracite Roads group sounds interesting. I think I may have been a member for a short time in the 90s. I took a hiatus in active railfanning from around 2002-2022.
danmerkelThe board of the NKPHTS feels that the future of most "fallen flag" historical society will be modeling so this forum seems like a great place to get some answers regarding membership
Fallen flag or not you need to keep up the Historical angle. I think it is OK to branch off into model railroading support but I think your conclusion is not correct in as far as interest waning.
So I might ask you the following:
1. Last time you applied for a Federal Grant for historical restoration?
2. Last time you participated financially or organizationally in erection of a railroad related historical marker via your state?
3. Outreach efforts to partner with Libraries or Universities that might hold NKP Historical papers or collections?
4. Partnership with a multitude of other non rail related historical organizations or outreach to them for joint effort projects?
5. Any actual railroad equipment restoration?
6. Past fundraising efforts?
7. Any efforts in generation of revenue producing content as far as pictures, YouTube videos, copyrights (your organizational logo at a min should be copyrighted for protection of fraud), T-Shirt designs, etc.
My feeling with volunteer organizations is they die or fade not from lack of interest but via lack of effort. One of the biggest complaints of HOA's is they do not serve the community or work against it. Reality is that not a lot of people are willing to make a noticeable effort in assisting the HOA with management. Railfan centered activities and clubs flop from lack of participation not because of lack of interest but because the same few people do most of the work and they get tired of it and want someone else to take over. People cancel their membership because they ask themselves the question..........what has this organization done recently? Is it really of value for me to spend my free time here or can I do better elsewhere?
With the items above your going to read that list and say to yourself, well I don't have time for any of that. Which might be true but does someone else? Has your organization tried? Grant writing is a skill that is marketable in the employment market and so is fundraising. You know that a lot of business schools offer marketing degrees and are filled with college students looking for some experience to put on their resume that would be willing to help your organization with ideas if they could reference it on their resume.
adkrr64For me at least, both of them provide a lot of value, and I'll keep being a member as long as they can keep it up.
And there you go. I read this after I posted. Same is true of any volunteer organization. On my HOA, plenty of participation when we were working our butts off doing events, fixing things, making large decisions. Everyone disappears once that stops.
You have to manage member activity so it rotates and no single member or small group of members is relied on too heavily for the activity or they will leave. It is a balancing act but it can be done.
20th Century Railroad Club in Chicago died I think I read from a smaller and smaller group of people in the Orchestra but a "you buy...we'll fly" audience. So that group dwindled due to pandemic and age..........and then collapse.
CMStPnP -- I don't know if they tried, but the museum in Bellevue, OH would be a perfect match for them. It has a Berkshire, RSD12, SD9 and GP30, all of NKP heritage, plus some rail cars. It seems to be quite viable, so some people must remember the NKP.
Backshop CMStPnP -- I don't know if they tried, but the museum in Bellevue, OH would be a perfect match for them. It has a Berkshire, RSD12, SD9 and GP30, all of NKP heritage, plus some rail cars. It seems to be quite viable, so some people must remember the NKP.
One thing I noticed though via rail museums, rarely do they cooperate on anything. They trade equipment sometimes and make deals but it is really rare to see two rail museums partner together on preservation.
BTW, my City used a rail historical group pretty heavily about 20 years ago to restore the rail part of the City's history back to where it should be. That stuff still goes on. Just amazed the FRISCO historical societies have not bothered to contact City of Frisco Texas, at least to my knowledge............which was named after the railroad. Frisco, Texas has boku money to burn too. Missed funding opportunity if you ask me.
Was even mentioned in TRAINS itself at one point. The City logo is the same as the railroads logo.
Lots of Credit Unions named after railroads and railroad streamliners. Not sure if they are still functional but they exist on paper.
One last item I find rather strange. Oklahoma City Railway Museum has a really nice restored Milwaukee Road SW1200 in fairly fresh Milwaukee paint.........nobody in the Midwest wants to swap with ATSF or some other more relevant equipment for that? OKC has an old single level Milwaukee Road Commutter Coach as well........no swap offers for that? Case in point about Museums not really cooperating.
zugmannThe older members remember when that "old junk" was in service. The younger generation doesn't.
CNW Historical Society is still active. However, their magazine is a shadow of what it once was
The SFHS&MS has the Warbonnet published quarterly, and it is EXCELLENT.
The B&O RHS publishes the Sentinel, also quarterly - Wide ranging articles on cars, locomotives, locations, operations - articles written with great research and detail.
While my family maintained an employment relationship with the B&O and its successors from 1910 to my retirement in 2016 - I learn things from the Sentinel everytime it comes out.
Longtime member of three groups. Like others, I'm along to learn the history tradition of the carrier. One downfall I have seen with one of the three is contacting them on a research question and they have nothing or offer any assistance. The reason for a society is to assist folks who may be on a fact finding project and to provide that help if asked. Many times it becomes a waste of time in contacting for help on a question. Prior to 2017, was a longtime member of local NRHS chapter that folded after 53 yrs in business. Decling membership numbers. For many yrs, it mostly was the same people in charge so to speak and became very difficult for someone like me to serve as a board member. Good ole boys network that finally drove the operation into the ground with the only option of disbanding.
Maybe they don't have the resources to help doing research. I'm sure it's all-volunteer.
SFbrkmnOne downfall I have seen with one of the three is contacting them on a research question and they have nothing or offer any assistance. The reason for a society is to assist folks who may be on a fact finding project and to provide that help if asked. Many times it becomes a waste of time in contacting for help on a question.
I have to agree. In the past I've submitted questions to one or two historical societies and have been told variations of "I don't know" and "you have to be a member to get any information or have access to anything." This is very discouraging to outsiders or researchers.
"Decling membership numbers. For many yrs, it mostly was the same people in charge so to speak and became very difficult for someone like me to serve as a board member. Good ole boys network that finally drove the operation into the ground with the only option of disbanding." (SFbrkmn)
The same principle applies to former mainline Churches. As the membership declines, the same few people seem to run things. Or, in seeming desperation, relative newcommers are thrust into senior positions (Vestry or governing boards) they actually are unprepared to assume.
These days, going to a mainline Church or being a railfan gives one insights into the changing demographics of our country as well as our interests.
SFbrkmn The reason for a society is to assist folks who may be on a fact finding project and to provide that help if asked. Many times it becomes a waste of time in contacting for help on a question.
The reason for a society is to assist folks who may be on a fact finding project and to provide that help if asked. Many times it becomes a waste of time in contacting for help on a question.
Actually the reason for a society is to SHARE information among those with simailar interests. The best way to share is by also doing research yourself and making it available to others by contributing to the society publication. Another good way is to contribute to the operation of the society, and YOU can be the volunteer that assists those outsiders "on a fact finding project". And of course, if you want to take advantage of their information resources, at least become a paid-up member.
Just think: in 50 years some researcher may be looking for long lost footage of teenage railans doing tiktok dances with heritage engines.
A recent post on the SPAAMFAA FB page lamented that a 1980's era fire truck is now considered an antique...
tree68A recent post on the SPAAMFAA FB page lamented that a 1980's era fire truck is now considered an antique...
Growing up, it seemed like 75% of the trucks around here used to be Ford C-models or Mack CFs.
Even the trucks that replaced them are mostly long gone. (E-ones, Simon-Duplex, spaceship ALFs)
zugmannFord C-models
Mack Model N
zugmannJust think: in 50 years some researcher may be looking for long lost footage of teenage railans doing tiktok dances with heritage engines.
I am seeing run of the mill Honda's and Datsun's along with F-150 pick-ups running around with my states 'Historic' plates.
To my mind there is nothing historic about grocery getters and daily beaters.
With so many boomers retiring now the historical societies may get a shot in the arm as retirees look for things to do. Might be more fun than golfing..
tree68 A recent post on the SPAAMFAA FB page lamented that a 1980's era fire truck is now considered an antique...
Pierce Fire Trucks are made where I live. Now part of Oshkosh Truck. In fact I worked there for a time in their buying department. I find it fascinating to see the many varied trucks leave town destined for cities in the US and overseas in their brand new, often ornate liveries. Seagraves are made about 35 miles from here.
Ulrich With so many boomers retiring now the historical societies may get a shot in the arm as retirees look for things to do. Might be more fun than golfing...
With so many boomers retiring now the historical societies may get a shot in the arm as retirees look for things to do. Might be more fun than golfing...
And many Boomers are of an age to remember how things were.
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