Why are there so many derailments in the U.S.? The devastating wreck in East Palestine has got me to thinking about this.
There was an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal (02/15/23) which stated that derailments have actually been on the decline, down from around 1,250 a year several years ago to merely a small tad over 1,000 last year.
Holy smoke~! That is STILL a helluva lotta derailments. WHY?
I realize that many of the incidents, perhaps even a majority of them, are slow-speed derailments that occur in yards. But, if we could even assume that 75% of them are yard-related, that still leaves over 250 major incidents.
Again, I have to ask why. Railroads are supposed to be the potentially safest form of land transportation. There once was day that if you wanted to ship something really dangerous, put it on the rails 'cause then you could rest assured that it would arrive safely. Probably not anymore.
Safer than by truck any day of the week. The newsworkers in the media love the drama they create when an incident happens and then are absolutely stupid on reporting the facts as they grandstand. Sad case of uninformed public being led around by grossly incompetant media who can't separate opinion from reality - Sad combination. (and then you mix poorly trained emergency services personell on a power/ego/politics trip...look out!)
NS is in some hot water, not all of it deserved.
mudchickenThe newsworkers in the media love the drama they create when an incident happens and then are absolutely stupid on reporting the facts as they grandstand.
To co-op a bit of lingo frequently used here...I guess we'd just have to be a NIMBY to properly understand?
Convicted One mudchicken The newsworkers in the media love the drama they create when an incident happens and then are absolutely stupid on reporting the facts as they grandstand. To co-op a bit of lingo frequently used here...I guess we'd just have to be a NIMBY to properly understand?
mudchicken The newsworkers in the media love the drama they create when an incident happens and then are absolutely stupid on reporting the facts as they grandstand.
Truck accidents are so frequent the local lawyers advertise on TV that they are specialists in extracting judgement from the trucking industry - in virtually every TV market.
Trucking accidents just blend into the noise of daily life and we don't think about them - unless they happen to us.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDTrucking accidents just blend into the noise of daily life and we don't think about them - unless they happen to us.
Heck, no one even hears about general aviation crashes and there's three or four of them nationally per day.
I also think that the initial claim of 75 percent being minor is a huge under estimation. I'd go closer to 98 percent. If you define major as "big enough for an NTSB report," you only get about 15 of those per year.
NittanyLion BaltACD Trucking accidents just blend into the noise of daily life and we don't think about them - unless they happen to us. Heck, no one even hears about general aviation crashes and there's three or four of them nationally per day. I also think that the initial claim of 75 percent being minor is a huge under estimation. I'd go closer to 98 percent. If you define major as "big enough for an NTSB report," you only get about 15 of those per year.
BaltACD Trucking accidents just blend into the noise of daily life and we don't think about them - unless they happen to us.
Back when I was a 'boots on the ground' Trainmaster in Locust Point Yard in Baltimore we had 61 derailments in the 28 days of February 1974 after additional grain sales were permitted to the USSR account of the grain crop failures in preceeding years. (Derailment - 1 or more wheels off the rail)
Out of nowhere, 65 and 100 car unit grain trains with 100+ton covered hoppers began using the B&O's grain elevator at Locust Point on a track structure that was built to handle 50 ton box cars with grain doors back in the 1920's and had not been updated. We certainly keep the Vacuum Truck contractors busy picking up and/or transloading grain.
It is the nature and character of the derailed cargo, not the number of derailments. What happened at East Palestine, Ohio should not have happened. My guess is that the hot box detection system needs to be upgraded. This 2019 study suggests that HBD's can and should be improved: https://www.utrgv.edu/railwaysafety/_files/documents/research/mechanical/ijrt_wayside-hbd-investigation.pdf IF the NSRR brass were smart, they would voluntarily engage in enhancing HBD's. Something like two and a quarter million tank cars of chemicals are shipped a year. Add about a quarter of million petroleum products. There is no room for error. The NTSB will provide a full report. Maybe the engineer's performance and decison making was faulty? Maybe the HBD was defective? Anyway, it the nature of tank car cargoes that is the issue in my mind.
How many heard of the military chopper crash this past week in the southeast?
And you all certainly heard of the private plane that ground looped and burned on a private airstrip here a few years ago...
We hear of the significant derailments and other incidents that occur - windmill blades, semi's full of eggs, what-have-you, but not of the relatively minor stuff.
Remember, "if it bleeds, it leads."
Actually, if you want a feel for how many major railroad events occur each year, just look here on the forum. We generally discuss most of them, and some of them at length.
As I saw someplace recently - if you're looking for a person in a green shirt, everybody will be wearing a green shirt...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
IIRC European rail lines have less derailments because of more intense maintenance.
There was this mess a few days ago.
mudchickenThe newsworkers in the media love the drama they create when an incident happens and then are absolutely stupid on reporting the facts as they grandstand. Sad case of uninformed public being led around by grossly incompetant media who can't separate opinion from reality - Sad combination. (and then you mix poorly trained emergency services personell on a power/ego/politics trip...look out!)
And there we go, blame the media and public and emergency workers for making a big deal of the latest rail disaster.
Try unloading that spin to the residents of East Palestine.
Truck accidents may be more numerous but they usually involve one truck load of material, not the large quantity that even a single tank car can carry.
Iowa legislators have proposed a bill that would shield trucking companies against negligence law suits against them for accidents caused by their drivers.
I believe it would also place a cap on damages won in court.
Jeff
There's been another bad wreck in Michigan now. Aerial photos tend to suggest that, once again, covered hoppers are involved. Are they more derailment-prone or is this just a coincidence?
Remember that horrific wreck and fire of an oil train in North Dakota a few years ago? If I remember right, a covered hopper was also to blame for that after it burned off journal and derailed on the adjacent track. The derailed equipment fouled the track the oil train was moving on and the crew was unable to stop in time. Fortunately, unlike Palestine, that happened out in the middle of nowwhere away from a town.
Again, are these covered hopper incidents just coincidence or are they more prone to derailing?
The Ohio governor will have another presser this (Friday) morning. Rain may spread these lethal chemicals into streams.
This story is not going away although NS might wish it would.
charlie hebdo The Ohio governor will have another presser this (Friday) morning. Rain may spread these lethal chemicals into streams. This story is not going away although NS might wish it would.
The bubble-headed bleach blonde comes on at five...
tells about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye...
Kick'em while they're up...
Kick'em while they're down...
Kick'em all around...
The Eagles - Dirty Laundry
Fred M CainAgain, are these covered hopper incidents just coincidence or are they more prone to derailing?
Just my take - apples and oranges.
Oil trains are required to have a buffer car. From what I've seen, these are never brand new cars. They are older cars, retired from their original purpose and ballasted with sand/gravel. Still interchangeable, but...
I would suspect that they would receive less than desirable attention from mechanical, and perhaps would suffer from "good enough" because there's no readily available substitute if the car was pulled for more thorough maintenance.
The hoppers in the recent Michigan derailment looked to be in revenue service. Losing them means losing income, so they probably get more attention.
Certain cars are known to be more susceptible to harmonic rocking, but that's more of a problem on jointed rail.
Again, just my take.
jeffhergert Iowa legislators have proposed a bill that would shield trucking companies against negligence law suits against them for accidents caused by their drivers. I believe it would also place a cap on damages won in court. Jeff
How many occur on trackage going into industrial sidings? Most of those are caused by bad track and are usually a pair of wheels sliding off the rails, the car stays upright. And who maintains industrial trackage? The railroad? the shipper?
azrailAnd who maintains industrial trackage? The railroad? the shipper?
I believe it's the owner of the siding, in most cases. If that sounds confusing - recall that in some industrial parks, a local authority owns the infrastructure. But if Fred's Feed owns the siding, Fred is responsible.
There could be cases where the railroad actually owns the siding.
Probably the most broad answer is "yes..."
The owner of the siding may pay the railroad an annual fee for switch maintenance, and the owner of the siding may well hire the railroad to do any maintenance.
More to the point, I can't think of any case where the 'siding owner' owns the actual switch, including the diverging route, perhaps clear to the edge of the railroad ROW.
There ought to be different reporting criteria for private sidings than for the common-carrier lines. Likewise for consequences from operating over the private trackage, e.g. damage from blind shoves or 'mistakes' with RCO operation.
azrailHow many occur on trackage going into industrial sidings? Most of those are caused by bad track and are usually a pair of wheels sliding off the rails, the car stays upright. And who maintains industrial trackage? The railroad? the shipper?
I don't believe that the run of the mill derailments that happen on industrial trackage ever get reported to the level that they are included in FRA derailment statistics.
Go back in time and photos of steam engines being used in switching and local freight type conditions would have a set of 'rerailers' hung on the side of the tender for use by the crew. Additionally up until the 1980's, I believe, crews were paid a '3 hour arbitrary payment' for rerailing cars.
BaltACDGo back in time and photos of steam engines being used in switching and local freight type conditions would have a set of 'rerailers' hung on the side of the tender for use by the crew
I don't see it much today but that practice carried forwards into the Diesel era, Milwaukee Road MP1500 AC used to have one hanging above one of the rear trucks on some of them that were in branch line service in the 1970's. Have not seen one recently though.
BaltACDI don't believe that the run of the mill derailments that happen on industrial trackage ever get reported to the level that they are included in FRA derailment statistics.
https://railroads.dot.gov/railroad-safety/accident-data-reporting-and-investigations
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann BaltACD I don't believe that the run of the mill derailments that happen on industrial trackage ever get reported to the level that they are included in FRA derailment statistics. https://railroads.dot.gov/railroad-safety/accident-data-reporting-and-investigations
BaltACD I don't believe that the run of the mill derailments that happen on industrial trackage ever get reported to the level that they are included in FRA derailment statistics.
Dot.Gov Any non-casualty train accident resulting in derailment of a locomotive, 15 cars or more, and extensive property damage.
I kept hearing a financial number bandied about with the run of the mill derailments being 'reportable' or not. As I recall from 2016 that number was less than $10K in estimated damages - cars, track, signals and property damage. I know a lot of 'fudge factor' was put into those damage estimates to keep the incident from being 'reportable'.
BaltACDI kept hearing a financial number bandied about with the run of the mill derailments being 'reportable' or not. As I recall from 2016 that number was less than $10K in estimated damages - cars, track, signals and property damage. I know a lot of 'fudge factor' was put into those damage estimates to keep the incident from being 'reportable'.
https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/forms-guides-publications/guides/monetary-threshold-notice
zugmann BaltACD I kept hearing a financial number bandied about with the run of the mill derailments being 'reportable' or not. As I recall from 2016 that number was less than $10K in estimated damages - cars, track, signals and property damage. I know a lot of 'fudge factor' was put into those damage estimates to keep the incident from being 'reportable'. https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/forms-guides-publications/guides/monetary-threshold-notice
BaltACD I kept hearing a financial number bandied about with the run of the mill derailments being 'reportable' or not. As I recall from 2016 that number was less than $10K in estimated damages - cars, track, signals and property damage. I know a lot of 'fudge factor' was put into those damage estimates to keep the incident from being 'reportable'.
No matter the reporting threshold figure - the carriers adherence to it is written in the comic strips. There is so much 'fudge' in what is reported and not reported the carriers should open a candy store.
CMStPnP BaltACD Go back in time and photos of steam engines being used in switching and local freight type conditions would have a set of 'rerailers' hung on the side of the tender for use by the crew I don't see it much today but that practice carried forwards into the Diesel era, Milwaukee Road MP1500 AC used to have one hanging above one of the rear trucks on some of them that were in branch line service in the 1970's. Have not seen one recently though.
BaltACD Go back in time and photos of steam engines being used in switching and local freight type conditions would have a set of 'rerailers' hung on the side of the tender for use by the crew
They don't teach how to use such things anymore. They don't teach how to chain up a car to move it when the drawbar is broken. I've seen chains on some foreign line engines, but don't know if their crews actually know how to use them. Possibly it's just to have them handy when mechanical forces show up.
jeffhergert CMStPnP BaltACD Go back in time and photos of steam engines being used in switching and local freight type conditions would have a set of 'rerailers' hung on the side of the tender for use by the crew I don't see it much today but that practice carried forwards into the Diesel era, Milwaukee Road MP1500 AC used to have one hanging above one of the rear trucks on some of them that were in branch line service in the 1970's. Have not seen one recently though. They don't teach how to use such things anymore. They don't teach how to chain up a car to move it when the drawbar is broken. I've seen chains on some foreign line engines, but don't know if their crews actually know how to use them. Possibly it's just to have them handy when mechanical forces show up. Jeff
Back in the day - a lot of railroad hiring in the field was from a pool of farm boys. Farm boys, of necessity learn basic mechanics and tool utilization since that is a part of the daily lives from about the age of 5 until the leave the farm.
Farm boys didn't need to be 'taught' much about railroad mechanics since they had been dealing with similar situations in their daily lives for years.
SAMUEL C WALKER https://www.utrgv.edu/railwaysafety/_files/documents/research/mechanical/ijrt_wayside-hbd-investigation.pdf IF the NSRR brass were smart, they would voluntarily engage in enhancing HBD's.
https://www.utrgv.edu/railwaysafety/_files/documents/research/mechanical/ijrt_wayside-hbd-investigation.pdf IF the NSRR brass were smart, they would voluntarily engage in enhancing HBD's.
Think about it . If NS does that now the jury will award more money thinking NS knew that there was a problem.
The best NS and the other RRs is to go to the FRA and say you need to put this defect equipent requirement in. Then NS at its damage trials can say with a straight face the FRA made me do it,
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