What is the current routing of Memphis (former Frisco) to the Southwest (former Santa Fe) trains, particularly intermodals?
From Memphis it is assumed the trains run to Springfield, hang a left and then to Tulsa. What is the routing beyond Tulsa to hit the Transcon?Ed
From Tulsa the route goes through Perry to Avard, OK on the Transcon.
Here is a map of the BNSF Intermodal Network:
https://www.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf/ship-with-bnsf/maps-and-shipping-locations/intermodal-map-large.pdf
Speaking of Oklahoma. There's a nice photo spread in the Fall 2022 issue of Classic Trains pages 12-13. Showing a WB Frisco freight ducking under the ATSF in OKC, heading to the old Floydada Gateway.
The Tulsa to Avard route crosses the former Santa Fe at Black Bear (MP 316.3) which is five miles north from Perry. It then goes through Enid and on to Avard.
kgbw49 From Tulsa the route goes through Perry to Avard, OK on the Transcon. Here is a map of the BNSF Intermodal Network: https://www.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf/ship-with-bnsf/maps-and-shipping-locations/intermodal-map-large.pdf
To: Ed (MP173) I' not sure how much Intermodal*(stacks) go on that Sringfield to Tulsa routing? From some of the traffic I've seen, some ofd it may go North, possibly to the KC area Logistics Park @ Gardner, Ks. ?? It would get 'worked', and then sent West from there? [via So.T-con?].
It could possibly,go Springfield,Mo. to Tulsa-Avard, and then Amarillo, and West, as well? Just a thought.
Edit: Do not respond to this post. For obvious reasons. I can only plead some variety of 'senior moment'...
I'm stunned to see the Sunset Route absent from that BNSF intermodal map. I remember coming west toward LA in the middle of the night on I-10 with a continuous string of 'fleeting' container trains, as 'nose-to-tail' as the signal system would allow, almost the whole width of New Mexico and Arizona where the tracks are visible to the north. Seems to me there would be obvious advantages for PSR types to run monstrains on a route with only two real severe grades...
Of course that was back in the day when intermodal was priority high-value traffic, not the commodified lowest-price thing it seems to have become.
Overmod I'm stunned to see the Sunset Route absent from that BNSF intermodal map. I remember coming west toward LA in the middle of the night on I-10 with a continuous string of 'fleeting' container trains, as 'nose-to-tail' as the signal system would allow, almost the whole width of New Mexico and Arizona where the tracks are visible to the north. Seems to me there would be obvious advantages for PSR types to run monstrains on a route with only two real severe grades... Of course that was back in the day when intermodal was priority high-value traffic, not the commodified lowest-price thing it seems to have become.
OM the Sunset Route is UP.
SD60MAC9500OM the Sunset Route is UP.
Comes of too low an ejection fraction, I suppose. I'll leave it up as a memento mori for the missing little grey cells.
Thanks for replies....now on to the next question.
Looking on Google maps/satellite tracing the route across OK, it appears there is considerable activity in Enid, Ok. What is the significance of Enid, geographically? Obviously the UP and BNSF cross there, but there are rail yards all over town, perhaps 2 on BNSF and 1 on UP.
Grain gathering location?
BTW, I am going thru an online Frisco Freight Operating Data Sheet (freight schedule) online and tracing the route of their transcon trains in connection with SCL and Southern thru Birmingham and the Santa Fe in OK.
Ed
MP173What is the significance of Enid, geographically?
I'm guessing here, but Enid seems to be the center of lines running to Amarillo, Tulsa, Wichita, and Oklahoma City, so I would opine it serves (or served) as something of a mixing bowl.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MP173 Thanks for replies....now on to the next question. Looking on Google maps/satellite tracing the route across OK, it appears there is considerable activity in Enid, Ok. What is the significance of Enid, geographically? Obviously the UP and BNSF cross there, but there are rail yards all over town, perhaps 2 on BNSF and 1 on UP. Grain gathering location? BTW, I am going thru an online Frisco Freight Operating Data Sheet (freight schedule) online and tracing the route of their transcon trains in connection with SCL and Southern thru Birmingham and the Santa Fe in OK. Ed
Yep you guessed right on the grain those are major elevators you see in the SAT. Enid has the 3rd largest silo capacity in the world, a.k.a. the wheat capital of Oklahoma, and the world.
SD60MAC9500 MP173 Thanks for replies....now on to the next question. Looking on Google maps/satellite tracing the route across OK, it appears there is considerable activity in Enid, Ok. What is the significance of Enid, geographically? Obviously the UP and BNSF cross there, but there are rail yards all over town, perhaps 2 on BNSF and 1 on UP. Grain gathering location? BTW, I am going thru an online Frisco Freight Operating Data Sheet (freight schedule) online and tracing the route of their transcon trains in connection with SCL and Southern thru Birmingham and the Santa Fe in OK. Ed Yep you guessed right on the grain those are major elevators you see in the SAT. Enid has the 3rd largest silo capacity in the world, a.k.a. the wheat capital of Oklahoma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enid,_Oklahoma
Yep you guessed right on the grain those are major elevators you see in the SAT. Enid has the 3rd largest silo capacity in the world, a.k.a. the wheat capital of Oklahoma.
No picture can really convey the size of those elevators. Grew up in Stillwater about an hour away and would go railfannng there back in the 80's. The Union Equity elevators were amazing in size. The biggest ones were a honeycomb shape too although some may have been the more conventional cylindrical ones. I would have to find my pics to be sure.
Jim
diningcar The Tulsa to Avard route crosses the former Santa Fe at Black Bear (MP 316.3) which is five miles north from Perry. It then goes through Enid and on to Avard.
MP173 Looking on Google maps/satellite tracing the route across OK, it appears there is considerable activity in Enid, Ok. What is the significance of Enid, geographically? Obviously the UP and BNSF cross there, but there are rail yards all over town, perhaps 2 on BNSF and 1 on UP. Grain gathering location? Ed
samfp1943 Thanks for posting that BNSF 'scaleable' System Map....The ones in their callandars are very hard to follow, and offer no fixed letter map points. To: Ed (MP173) I' not sure how much Intermodal*(stacks) go on that Sringfield to Tulsa routing? From some of the traffic I've seen, some ofd it may go North, possibly to the KC area Logistics Park @ Gardner, Ks. ?? It would get 'worked', and then sent West from there? [via So.T-con?]. It could possibly,go Springfield,Mo. to Tulsa-Avard, and then Amarillo, and West, as well? Just a thought.
Thanks for posting that BNSF 'scaleable' System Map....The ones in their callandars are very hard to follow, and offer no fixed letter map points.
Intermodal from Memphis can originate at Memphis, be received from NS (usually from Austell, GA/Atlanta), and be run through traffic at Birmingham (off CSX from Fairburn, GA, which is actually a joint CSX-BNSF facility on CSX).
Nothing from east of Springfield goes north to Kansas City to go west (except that going to the Pacific Northwest, which is minimal); Any block swapping (including auto racks) is usually done at Clovis, NM which can also incorporate the traffic to/from Fort Worth and Houston. Intermodal trains through Springfield can also pick up and set out traffic to/from St. Louis.
--Mark Meyer
MP173 What is the significance of Enid, geographically?
Historically it was wheat, oil and cattle.
Those branch line networks have been shortlined or lifted. The beef is trucked, the oil pipelined and the refinery is gone.
Today? Unit grain moves for UP & BNSF, and there is a massive fertilizer plant east of town.
Thanks. Appreciate the input regarding Enid and BNSF ops.
I completed my review of the Frisco Operations book. I recall reading about the Conrail "X" which provided ability to concentrate operations utilzing the shape of the main routes - Chicago to Boston or NY and St. Louis to Boston or NY with the X being near Cleveland...Berea if not mistaken.
Frisco had a similar "X" at Springfield. Lines converged from St. Louis, Kansas City, Birmingham/Memphis, and Oklahoma City/Tulsa/Ft. Worth. Branch/secondary lines fanned out from Springfield to Kansas City (a second line), Wichita, Ft. Smith (and beyond) and a few other routes. Springfield was obviously the key.
Tulsa had a major hump yard - Cherokee Yard built and classified trains for St. Louis, KC, Memphis and beyond, Ft. Worth, OKC, and to/from Santa Fe. Memphis was also quite a hub with lines to and from KC/Springfield, St. Louis, Birmingham, and Mobile/Pensacola.
From analyzing the Operations Data Book (freight schedule) the operations seemed efficient. Birmingham was a big "run thru" terminal from SCL and Southern, as was Memphis. KC had the UP running trains to/from North Platte, and the Santa Fe trains were interchanged in Oklahoma.
None of the lines were particularly heavy, but the mainlines seemed to have 10-16 trains daily...this was before the coal arrived from BNSF later.
I have a 1972 system wide ETT and also Moody's Transportation Manuals from '72 and '80 which I plan to research a bit more.
Interesting railroad...obviously MoPac was the crown jewel of St. Louis market to Texas, but Frisco had some value, particularly reaching the Birmingham market and jumping the Mississippi at Memphis.
Comments from anyone with Frisco info is appreciated.
MP173 Interesting railroad...obviously MoPac was the crown jewel of St. Louis market to Texas, but Frisco had some value, particularly reaching the Birmingham market and jumping the Mississippi at Memphis. Comments from anyone with Frisco info is appreciated. Ed
Its been said that Frisco and MoPac should have merged. The history of both roads is quite interesting as they were both offspring of the Pacific Railroad incorporated in Missouri. Along with the Atlantic & Pacific another offspring of the Pacific Railroad, which Santa Fe acquired the west end of the disconnected system(A sizeable portion today a component of BNSF's Southern Transcon). With ATSF eventually gaining control of the Frisco just before the 20th Century, only to lose it as they both went into receivership some years later. Funny how the BN+ATSF merger brought Frisco and ATSF back together. They must have been destined to be together.
Priority Z symbols staffed Enid-Springfield long pool, home terminal Enid. West of Enid to Amarillo, are staffed by TX based pool crews. The non priority Z plus Q and S trains east of Enid work off the short pool to. Tulsa w/ crews east of their to be Springfield
OWTX Koch Industries is the fertilizer plant client. Several unit loads ship to ND MP173 What is the significance of Enid, geographically? Historically it was wheat, oil and cattle. Those branch line networks have been shortlined or lifted. The beef is trucked, the oil pipelined and the refinery is gone. Today? Unit grain moves for UP & BNSF, and there is a massive fertilizer plant east of town.
Koch Industries is the fertilizer plant client. Several unit loads ship to ND
OWTX MP173 What is the significance of Enid, geographically? Historically it was wheat, oil and cattle. Those branch line networks have been shortlined or lifted. The beef is trucked, the oil pipelined and the refinery is gone. Today? Unit grain moves for UP & BNSF, and there is a massive fertilizer plant east of town.
The Arkansas Valley and Western Railway built Tulsa to Avard. With the Belen Cutoff it works as the never completed Central Division of the Atlantic & Pacific Railroad.
The Champlin Refinery was in the angle where the Santa Fe and Frisco lines meet on the east side of Enid. I believe in its final years this was a Union Pacific property.
The junction at Avard is now a full wye with a northern leg.
The Frisco DFW and OKC traffic was moved to the ATSF line. There is manifest traffic that goes east at Black Bear to get humped at Cherokee Yard. This is probably the only practical route for any sort of OKC-TUL passenger service. I just don't see the state shoveling a big pile of money at the former Frisco to get it up to speed.
My review of Frisco continues as the freight schedules (1975) are analyzed for movement and classification. Frisco seemed to have a pretty good hub/spoke operation out of Springfield, Tulsa, and Memphis.
Is the Tulsa Cherokee Yard still a hump operation? My most recent paper map of BNSF shows the ex Frisco line from Tulsa (Sapula) to Irving in operation. Is that line still a mainline operation?
Also, from the 1975 schedules, it appeared that 2 pairs of trains operated from Sherman, Tx to Tulsa and 1 from Irving. What was the significance of Sherman to generate two pairings?
Finally, is the lead line in Missouri still in operation?
One more thing...any suggested books on Frisco?
ed
MP173 Is the Tulsa Cherokee Yard still a hump operation?
Is the Tulsa Cherokee Yard still a hump operation?
Yes.
MP173 My most recent paper map of BNSF shows the ex Frisco line from Tulsa (Sapula) to Irving in operation. Is that line still a mainline operation?
My most recent paper map of BNSF shows the ex Frisco line from Tulsa (Sapula) to Irving in operation. Is that line still a mainline operation?
Yes. Mixed freight and coal trains operate from Tulsa to Madill to interchange with the Kiamichi Railroad. Freight trains can also operate via Madill to Fort Worth, though most trains operate through to Teague for Houston. I can't vouch for the symbols operating right now, but at one time, traffic for the Houston area operated via Sapulpa and Madill through Irving and Corsicana to Teague where the cars were Marshaled into other trains destined for various locations in the Houston Terminal.
MP173 Finally, is the lead line in Missouri still in operation?
No.
MP173Also, from the 1975 schedules, it appeared that 2 pairs of trains operated from Sherman, Tx to Tulsa and 1 from Irving. What was the significance of Sherman to generate two pairings?
Sherman was an ICC era interchange:
http://txrrhistory.com/towers/016/016.htm
Frisco interchange there was almost entirely with the SP, and a big chunk of that and the Irving traffic stayed in the south central region. Loss of the Gulf Coast Lines and access to what is now called the chemical coast was a major strategic blow.
I believe the Creek sub generates a fair bit of online unit sand, aggregate and rock loads.
quite a link to the Sherman, Tx tower. Thanks for providing it.
Makes sense that it was an interchange point.
thanks,
OWTX I believe the Creek sub generates a fair bit of online unit sand, aggregate and rock loads.
Indeed, there are large such facilities near Mill Creek with the primary origin BNSF station being Clark, Oklahoma (CAK).
samfp1943 Enough intermodal traffic to support a Enid based long pool to Springfield for the Zs which run on the sub. 210 is the condr board which holds 6 slots currently kgbw49 From Tulsa the route goes through Perry to Avard, OK on the Transcon. Here is a map of the BNSF Intermodal Network: https://www.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf/ship-with-bnsf/maps-and-shipping-locations/intermodal-map-large.pdf Thanks for posting that BNSF 'scaleable' System Map....The ones in their callandars are very hard to follow, and offer no fixed letter map points. To: Ed (MP173) I' not sure how much Intermodal*(stacks) go on that Sringfield to Tulsa routing? From some of the traffic I've seen, some ofd it may go North, possibly to the KC area Logistics Park @ Gardner, Ks. ?? It would get 'worked', and then sent West from there? [via So.T-con?]. It could possibly,go Springfield,Mo. to Tulsa-Avard, and then Amarillo, and West, as well? Just a thought.
Enough intermodal traffic to support a Enid based long pool to Springfield for the Zs which run on the sub. 210 is the condr board which holds 6 slots currently
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