Due to shifting track because of tides affected by the Florida hurricane all service is suspended
diningcarDue to shifting track because of tides affected by the Florida hurricane all service is suspended
Bet it's Kay, not Ian...
From the San Diego Union-Tribune:
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/communities/north-county/oceanside/story/2022-09-30/metrolink-amtrak-suspend-train-service-to-oceanside
The print ersion of the article had a 2021 picture of a Metrolink train that was apparently stopped by high waves, possibly in conjunction with a high tide. The article mentioned the settling was on a 700' long segment and the amount of settling was a small fraction of an inch. Amtrak and Metrolink service was halted out of an abundance of caution.
The article mentioned that 20,000 tons of rip rap have been placed recently to protect the tracks from waves. I don't think the salt spray does much good for the functioning of the track circuits.
How was Santa Fe able to run this line for 100 years with few delays yet the Gov't agency is all but shutting down the line for 60 days?
azrailHow was Santa Fe able to run this line for 100 years with few delays yet the Gov't agency is all but shutting down the line for 60 days?
The Climate wasn't changing when ATSF operated the line. Climate change and the increase in global temperatures are melting glaciers all over the globe - the water that is melted out of the glaciers ends up in the oceans and thus raise the level of the oceans.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Is the sea rising, or is the land subsiding?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
San Juan Cap/ Laguna Nigel all the way down to Oceanside had issues while it was Santa Fe owned it. They had resources that the quasi-government agencies did not have to throw at the problems, including people who had a vested interest in protecting "the property". Not that way anymore. Hardly a new problem and the local geology/ soils are nasty & expansive when they get wet / can't drain. Laid new steel and ties down there before turning over the plant to the Lossan/San Diego Trolley/SanDag/MetroJoke people.
tree68 Is the sea rising, or is the land subsiding?
I believe it is both, when they talk about restoring beaches to protect this coast line I believe they are also pointing to previous storms carried away the beaches which protected this coast specifically.
With the rising Ocean level they are going to need to replace this line entirely building it up with rip-rap is just a band aid.
There was a guy in another forum in North Texas here saying what babies people are that can't live without AC here in Dallas after almost a month of temps 100 degrees or more. I looked back 55 years "when he was growing up" and allegedly tolerated it. Could not find a 30 day block of near or over 100 degree temps. In fact the temps were a LOT cooler in his child hood. He never thought of making that comparison himself using weather data before publishing something dumb.
There was a guy in another forum in North Texas here saying what babies people are that can't live without AC here in Dallas after almost a month of temps 100 degrees or more. I looked back 55 years "when he was growing up" and allegedly tolerated it. Could not find a 30 day block of near or over 100 degree temps. In fact the temps were a LOT cooler in his child hood. He never thought of making that comparison himself using weather data before making a comment like that. People are in denial the weather is getting warmer.
That part of the California coast has become intensely developed. Rooftops, parking lots, roads, and other hardscapes, along with stormwater management affect rain infiltration and its influence on erosion. Also that region is very tectonically active with things that are less noticable like land uplift/subsidence and submarine landslides. All in addition to expected coastal erosion.
mudchicken Hardly a new problem and the local geology/ soils are nasty & expansive when they get wet / can't drain.
Hardly a new problem and the local geology/ soils are nasty & expansive when they get wet / can't drain.
Most of the coastline in this part of SoCal is either sandstone (cliffs) or sand bars, neither of which is very resistant to erosion. In the time I've lived in Encinitas, there have been at least two cliff collapses that resulted in fatalities. The victims were sitting or laying on the beach and got buried by the maerial falling off the cliff. One contributing factor is poor drainage of the ground at the top of the cliff. (I'm quite sure MC already knows this, just amplifying what he wrote.)
One other problem with the San Juan Cap segment is that it is now the longest stretch of single track on the LOSSAN line and has been the source of many delays waiting for the track to clear.
From today's paper, another story:
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/communities/north-county/oceanside/story/2022-10-04/sliding-railroad-tracks-declared-state-emergeny
So, based on the following quote from the article, the max movement could amount to 3.7 to 14.6 inches or so over a year. Maybe our muddy feathered friend could comment on that.
"Geologists and engineers monitoring the slide area detected new movement at the rate of 0.01 inch to 0.04 inch per day after another storm last month."
....and you expect that to move uniformly, evenly and all in the same direction?
mudchicken ....and you expect that to move uniformly, evenly and all in the same direction?
I'll own up to the bolded part, for sure. I'm no dirt engineer, but I do see a lot of people out and about with stations measuring the streets. "Comes with the territory," you could say. Mind you, I live in a neighborhood that had a few houses slide away forty or so years ago, and we are at east 15 miles inland.
I'm reminded of a cartoon that was on the bulletin board outside the soils lab which showed an Italian developer doing a presentation and showing a chart of a perfectly vertical Tower of Pisa, explaining, "We gonna save a 5,000 lira by not doing soils testing." I still chuckle at it after 45 years, probably because I hear the statement in Father Guido Sarducci's voice.
San Francisco has its own "leaning tower".
ChuckCobleigh"Geologists and engineers monitoring the slide area detected new movement at the rate of 0.01 inch to 0.04 inch per day after another storm last month."
I'd be more interested to see the periodic maintenance of line and surface in this 'slide area', if the cumulative slip at the 'new movement' reported rate is characteristic at any prior time, or ongoing...
No other place to move the line to....unless you want to deal with more up and down grades and NIMBY and BANANA. This line replaced the original SF line through Temecula Canyon that had continuous washouts.
There's a very limited set of solutions, any of which require far more political will than California invertebrates will care to muster.
One would be to install a seawall and other structure, along the lines of the very similar section of track near Penzance on the ex-GWR that is regularly beaten by storm waves. The problem with even a slight elevation is that some of the NIMBYs insist on random beach access across the line, and anything that might hold them up or require them to stick to particular access routes would be... difficult.
The alternative is to use some of that Chinese self-launching-bridge track machinery, set piles every so far apart, and put some sort of architect-designed version of the Millau Viaduct across the section(s) most in question -- double-tracking as they go. (We could do it domestically with an R crane, but the Chinese now have vastly more experience at doing what would be necessary...) This gives free and safe access anywhere under the elevated structure at any hour, allow full 'return to nature' of most of the current ROW, minimize 'train noise' and other impacts, facilitate future dual-mode-lite electrification adoption... etc.
Just don't let any entity whatsoever containing the letters "FIGG" get anywhere near it, in any capacity...
Or move to the I-5 ROW like they should have done with HSR
OvermodThe alternative is to use some of that Chinese self-launching-bridge track machinery, set piles every so far apart, and put some sort of architect-designed version of the Millau Viaduct across the section(s) most in question --
You still need to find stable ground for the bridge piers. Also, have they used cable-stayed bridge construction for a rail line?
rdamon Or move to the I-5 ROW like they should have done with HSR
My first reaction was: "Have you ever drive I-5 through San Clemente?", with particular emphasis on the portion between the junction with Highway 1 and about where Nixon's western White House was located. The vertical profile is not suited for any kind of high speed operation without building some very impressive viaducts.
Agree, Erik_Mag. And those 6-8 BNSF freights per day would find it impossible.
Erik_Mag rdamon Or move to the I-5 ROW like they should have done with HSR My first reaction was: "Have you ever drive I-5 through San Clemente?", with particular emphasis on the portion between the junction with Highway 1 and about where Nixon's western White House was located. The vertical profile is not suited for any kind of high speed operation without building some very impressive viaducts.
Heck, I-5 on either side of Avenida Pico interchange can be daunting for passenger cars as it is. As you note, some serious viaduct, trenching or tunneling would be necessary to make it rail-friendly. I would suggest the situation at Del Mar is in the same category.
ChuckCobleigh Erik_Mag rdamon Or move to the I-5 ROW like they should have done with HSR My first reaction was: "Have you ever drive I-5 through San Clemente?", with particular emphasis on the portion between the junction with Highway 1 and about where Nixon's western White House was located. The vertical profile is not suited for any kind of high speed operation without building some very impressive viaducts. Heck, I-5 on either side of Avenida Pico interchange can be daunting for passenger cars as it is. As you note, some serious viaduct, trenching or tunneling would be necessary to make it rail-friendly. I would suggest the situation at Del Mar is in the same category.
The plans to follow the 14 from Palmdale to Burbank are not much easier.
https://hsr.ca.gov/high-speed-rail-in-california/project-sections/palmdale-to-burbank/
ChuckCobleigh Heck, I-5 on either side of Avenida Pico interchange can be daunting for passenger cars as it is. As you note, some serious viaduct, trenching or tunneling would be necessary to make it rail-friendly. I would suggest the situation at Del Mar is in the same category.
The "plan" for dealing with the Del Mar trackage is to tunnel under Del Mar. Estimated cost is a few billion, and would involve removing a few homes and other structures. One way I would suggest payng foor that is putting a lien on all the properties in Del Mar that would be based on the increase in repsective property values of the parcels due to the removal of the tracks from the coast. A fair price might be 50% of the increase to be paid on sale or transfer of the property.
I would really like to see a concurrent construction of a tunnel between Sorrento Valley and Rose canyon with an underground station directly below the UTC terminus of the Trolley Line. This would allow for direct transfer frrom Coaster trains to the trolley for a faster commute to UCSD. FWIW, I wrote about a similar tunnel for a term paper in my 12th grade engish class - my 50th high school reunion is coming up in 2 weeks.
We had a thread here a few years ago that actually had a map of the alternatives to 'solving' the issue in the Del Mar area. Someone should find the map or the link and re-post it here. It was an interesting example of engineering.
What's the vertical separation between the tunnel station and the UTC terminal?
Overmod What's the vertical separation between the tunnel station and the UTC terminal?
My half baked thought on where the UTC tunnel should be would have the northern entrance just past the southeast end of Roselle St (between I-5 and I-805) - with the line curved so that it would parallel Genessee where Genesee crosses La Jolla Village Drive - then curve again to meet up with the existing ex-AT&SF surf line about where Regents Road ends. Doing a quick measurement on the relevant topo maps, I get an overall length of 12,000'. The elevation at the end of Roselle St is about 70', the elevation of the existing line at Regents is about 190' - difference being 120' - that would make a nice 1% ruling grade versus the existing 2.2%. The UTC station would be about 5,000' north of the south (Regents) entrance, so that would put the stations elevation about 140'. The elevation of ground level there is about 360', and the "trolley" station is about 20' higher. We would be looking at a total vertical separation of 240', though the more likely scheme would have an elevator from the underground station level to ground level, and a separate elevator/stairs from ground level to the "trolley" station.
It would seem to me that the platform for the underground station be placed between the two tracks and there should be at least three elevators.
Station ventilation would need some attention.
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