How come CSX’s attendance policy isn’t brought up. 2 points for a doctors visit, 4 points for a week day layoff and 6 for a weekend. 10 for miss call. Discipline at 20 points. Can’t get any points back unless you are marked up and available for 6 months you get 10 points back. If fmla is used it resets your six months so you possibly can never get them back. How is this job a long term career? Also get to 20 points and you lose your new hire bonus.
nevermind. Pressed the wrong button.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The points systems are often used in entry-level, low-skill and or part-time jobs where the expectation is not career employment. It's insulting to professional railroad employees.
charlie hebdoThe points systems are often used in entry-level, low-skill and or part-time jobs where the expectation is not career employment. It's insulting to professional railroad employees.
PSR has been insulting professional railroad employees since its inception.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD charlie hebdo The points systems are often used in entry-level, low-skill and or part-time jobs where the expectation is not career employment. It's insulting to professional railroad employees. PSR has been insulting professional railroad employees since its inception.
charlie hebdo The points systems are often used in entry-level, low-skill and or part-time jobs where the expectation is not career employment. It's insulting to professional railroad employees.
The points system predates PSR.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 BaltACD charlie hebdo The points systems are often used in entry-level, low-skill and or part-time jobs where the expectation is not career employment. It's insulting to professional railroad employees. PSR has been insulting professional railroad employees since its inception. The points system predates PSR.
I retired 2 1/2 months before EHH replaced Michael Ward. I was not aware of any form of points system that was being applied to T&E attendence.
Does T&E mean Train & Engine?
Still in training.
Lithonia OperatorDoes T&E mean Train & Engine?
Yes
UP's points based system is only a year and a half, maybe two years old. BNSF's is even more recent. I believe about the time Ms Farmer took command and took BNSF deeper down the PSR path.
Attendence policies change from time to time. Wholesale changes aren't for the employees' benefit.
Point systems aren't really new to railroads. Brownies anyone?
Jeff
This seems like a cruel policy except for those who wish only temporary employment. One who works for a ralroad for 30 years or so, would seem to inevitably at one time or another, perhaps more than once, accumulate 20 negative points and face disciplinary action. Not a good system for the best hiring possibilities.
Do any Class-Ones today schedule regular annual medical check-ups on company-time, with railroad-employed doctors on railroad property?
If the one with the railroad beany with the slogan "Your Health Matters," and then uses this point sxstem but does not provide the annual medical check-up, may one call management hypocrits?.
In some ways one can feel for the railroad.
If they allowed the employees to work when they felt like it, they'd have a heck of a time crewing any trains. Hence the stick.
One would think it would be better to use a carrot, either rewarding good attendance, or making conditions better - some sort of regularity of hours would be a huge improvement, based on what I see here.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68In some ways one can feel for the railroad.
No.
We might remember that 'brownie points' come out of the Brown System... of Discipline. The same mentality that gave us 'penalty applications' in automatic train control, and inward-facing always-on cab cameras like those over the cash registers in cheap convenience stores...
I second what Tree said about the merit-points system. The first problem is that it costs money, and the second that it obligates the railroad to respect the employees rather than treating them like 'human capital' to be exploited just like the equipment and physical plant. I thought Warren Buffett, of all people, would be taking a lead in implementing this. Perhaps at some point the people he's delegated will come to their senses.
BaltACD n012944 BaltACD charlie hebdo The points systems are often used in entry-level, low-skill and or part-time jobs where the expectation is not career employment. It's insulting to professional railroad employees. PSR has been insulting professional railroad employees since its inception. The points system predates PSR. I retired 2 1/2 months before EHH replaced Michael Ward. I was not aware of any form of points system that was being applied to T&E attendence.
They were there. I am suprised you do not remember points systems for dispatchers, those also predate PSR. They were a Cindy special.
tree68If they allowed the employees to work when they felt like it, they'd have a heck of a time crewing any trains. Hence the stick.
Over the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion. The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant. The "stick" as you call it, is designed to keep the chest-thumpers in order. Railroads are bound to have learned a thing or two over the past 150 years about getting men's attention.
Convicted OneOver the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion. The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant
But that's not what happened. It's a cute story - but far from reality. What really happened is they laid off a lot of people, got rid of many scheduled and regular jobs, and when people started quitting and new people stopped trying to hire on, they freaked out because they couldn't staff the pools/lists like they did just before the new operating philosophies. But that isn't as fun as a story to tell on railfan boards.
Convicted One tree68 If they allowed the employees to work when they felt like it, they'd have a heck of a time crewing any trains. Hence the stick. Over the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion. The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant. The "stick" as you call it, is designed to keep the chest-thumpers in order. Railroads are bound to have learned a thing or two over the past 150 years about getting men's attention.
tree68 If they allowed the employees to work when they felt like it, they'd have a heck of a time crewing any trains. Hence the stick.
Getting 'attention' and getting productive labor are two enitely different things. The current view of labor on the railroads is rooted in the Plantation Mansion of 1860.
The attendence policies are designed to have as few people on any specific board as possible by trying to limit the number of employees marking/laying off. If people don't lay off as much, they can cut the number of turns on a pool or extra board.
For much of my 24 years, the attendence policy was such that if you had an 85% availablity, didn't have a pattern (for example-same day every week) and not too many weekend (which includes Friday and Monday) layoffs, you were good.
I feel back then they wanted to make sure they got enough work out of employees to cover their cost of benefits. About the time we started PSR-lite practices, they made some changes but still allowed ample time off. I should note that under either policy some would run afoul of the policy and go to investigation, have to sign that they were bad and promised to be better, but rarely was anyone dismissed.
After going full blown PSR and the cuts they allowed, they still needed more cuts. Someone probably thought if we can reduce the layoffs to just compensated days and vacations, we can maybe cut another 5 or 10 off a particular board. And even the non week (single day) vacation and paid leave days can be controlled by denying their use.
What they didn't figure in was that the "balanced" system that PSR envisions often runs into reality. The balance can be thrown off and then the repercusions start to snowball. A few extra trains, recovery from a derailment, people still laying off (I would guess about half of TE&Y have family medical leave and attendence policies can't ding someone for usung it.) start causing to work enough that the RSIA requirement for 48/72 hours off kicks in depleting boards even more. They literally can't move trains because either one or both crew positions aren't available.
So they grudgingly add back s few to boards and to do so may have to recall furloughed people. Except many of those, tired of being jerked around, don't come back. Then they try to hire and get few takers because word gets around.
Which puts us where we are now. Things have slowed a bit at my home terminal. Layoffs are down, but someone observed that people are trying to work off points or save them for the coming holiday season. We also have had conductor borrowouts that have allowed setting up set back engineers. Seeing boards, especially conductor and both extra boards, with half the people in federal rest or undistrubed rest for weeks at a time have mostly past. Still, we've had days when the balance, due to recrewing trains delayed by track work, is thrown off and some boards get tight.
zugmannBut that's not what happened. It's a cute story - but far from reality.
I believe if it were my decision alone, I'd likely take a position more lenient than the one the railroads currently seem to favor. But at the same time...I have to concede that the railroads have been having to deal with the (trying to be charitable here) more strident personality types that seem to gravitate towards railroading. So, their rules naturally have to take account of that.
I suspect part of the cornundrum is that idealized sets of circumstances get cast for effect. We are told of the instances where an otherwise well disciplined employee loses his job over an unscheduled doctors appointment made necessary when he injured his arm volunteering to put out the fire at the local orphanage....and I have little doubt such things do happen. But at the same time those rule sets are drafted having to take into account the type of person who believes the solution to every problem is to turn up their volume.
Both extremes exist. Only one being the problem (so far as the railroad is concerned) ....so the rules are crafted to deal with them.
Hey, if it was up to me, I'd permit 5 unscheduled days off per yer, per employee....call in 6 hours prior to your normal availability time, and you're good to go. (unpaid, of course) . Evidently the railroads don't see it that way, perhaps out of concern that the chest thumpers and their knuckle dragging bretheren might find a way to take advantage of that?
Nevermind. I can't do it.
The person who doesn't lay off too often isn't going to get fired over one unforeseen emergency. It's going to hit those when a string of them happen within a period of time, dependent on which policy is in effect.
Even with documentation that a reasonable person would accept for the absence isn't taken into account by the railroad. My company has taken attendence matters out of the hands of local management so that legitimate, documented excuses and work records aren't taken into consideration. That's because they want to reduce active employees, those receiving gaurantee and/or health benefits to the least number possible to handle business.
Our policy has one other change. Our lay offs are normally for 24 hours. It used to be one could extend that up to a total of 72 hours without an additional occurance being charged to attendence. On road service assignments where you go out and lay over in a motel and then come back home, one may have to lay off 24 to 36 hours ( or more) ahead of the time actually needed to make an appointment, etc. Sometimes conditions may require extending a lay off to reach the required time off.
Your 5 days uncompensated off per year is worse than some of the actual policies.
We have, as the NCCC pointed out, paid leave time (road service) although they neglected the fact that those days are subject to manpower requirements. We have a program for preplanned approved single day vacation/personal leave days. You can put them in up to 4 or 5 months in advance. Sometimes you have to put in for them the moment the time period allows. They restrict the daily allotment and can blank outright some dates. Getting a PL/Single Vacation day on the spur of the moment is posible, but only when things are extremely slow. (Some pool engineers, with no gaurantee, will sometimes take PL days when things are extremely slow to augment the working trips.) I banked 2 or 3 PL days last year and probably will do the same this year.
jeffhergert...one may have to lay off 24 to 36 hours ( or more) ahead of the time actually needed to make an appointment, etc. ...
I just made an doctor's appointment for a follow-up - next April (really, I did). If (the rhetorical) I could be assured that I could plan to work trips in such a way as to allow me to attend that appointment without laying off...
zugmann tree68 In some ways one can feel for the railroad. No.
tree68 In some ways one can feel for the railroad.
Well, not so much for the railroad (ie, top level management), but for the honest working folks who are trying to make it all work without the necessary resources.
So how did the railroads deal with COVID? Still get the points?Ed
MP173So how did the railroads deal with COVID? Still get the points? Ed
Ed
For the most part the Class 1 carriers laid off a percentage of their workforces to accommodate the reduced level of business.
The carriers want to operate their post covid business at the covid staffing level.
MP173 So how did the railroads deal with COVID? Still get the points?Ed
Because of required quarantine periods, we would be placed in a special lay off status that did not affect attendence. For those that worked with someone who developed a confirmed case, those people exposed and then quarantined were paid a basic day for their time off. I was off 14 days paid because I had worked with a conductor who tested positive. I never developed covid from this exposure. Once the time had expired I talked to the company nurse who got me marked up. She was the one who notified me that I was out of service.
That status is still used for some temporary medical conditions, but I think one needs to go through the nurse to use it for any length of time.
Jeff brings up a good point in having to take extra days off in unsasigned service.More often that not, you may have to take two or three days just to get one day. In some cases, it may be worth the roll of dice to wait and put in for an immediate layoff and see if it gets approved right then. If not, then its LOS and take the point dock. For example I had float days today & tomorrow as today (21st) the Mrs. & I are celebrating our wedding anniversy. In no way am I going to be on the ballast on this day. Last night, before midnight, I checked my turn on the board lineup and showed like 76 out which meant I was not going to work today. I pulled my vac day down and moved it to Sunday. If I had not done this, I would have wasted a vac day for no reason. It is frustrtating in having to log on and see your board turn status but, so as not to waste away a paid day away in order to save it for later on, this is what unassigned workers may have to do in many circumstances. Name of the game so to speak and not enjoyable in dealing with work issues when one is off for the purpose of getting away from it to begin with. Hope this was some helpful insight to non railroaders out there.
Sam from Wichita
zugmann Convicted One Over the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion. The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant But that's not what happened. It's a cute story - but far from reality. What really happened is they laid off a lot of people, got rid of many scheduled and regular jobs, and when people started quitting and new people stopped trying to hire on, they freaked out because they couldn't staff the pools/lists like they did just before the new operating philosophies. But that isn't as fun as a story to tell on railfan boards.
Convicted One Over the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion. The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant
Exactly and some folks just can't understand any real railroader's perspective, preferring to label them as "chest thumpers" in need of "the stick" whatever that is.
charlie hebdo zugmann Convicted One Over the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion. The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant But that's not what happened. It's a cute story - but far from reality. What really happened is they laid off a lot of people, got rid of many scheduled and regular jobs, and when people started quitting and new people stopped trying to hire on, they freaked out because they couldn't staff the pools/lists like they did just before the new operating philosophies. But that isn't as fun as a story to tell on railfan boards. Exactly and some folks just can't understand any real railroader's perspective, preferring to label them as "chest thumpers" in need of "the stick" whatever that is.
Those that haven't worked under the conditions that railroaders in Pool or Extra Board service cannot comprehend what those working conditions actually are. They can't comprehend the 2 AM phone call to report for duty at 4 AM Monday. Working to get their train assembled. Depart the terminal at 8 AM and move the train to the first siding on the route and sit there for hours being passed by following trains and meeting opposing trains. Ultimately pulling their train to the next siding and repeating the process. Finally at 3 PM they are still 100 mile from their run's destination and pull into another siding to await their relieving crew that arrives on the scene at 5 PM. The crew gets in the van that brought the relief crew and rides it to their desitnation terminal where they tie up at 7 PM after having been ON DUTY for 12 hours and on Pay for 15 hours. Now at their AFHT they get 15 hours 'rest' before they can be called for another tour of duty which makes them available to be called at 10 AM on Day 2. Available to be called and being called are two different things. They may get called 'on their rest' or they may not, most likely not. If they are luck they will get called within the first 8 hours after their rested time, if they are not 'lucky' that call can be over 24 hours after their 'rested' time. Being called IS NOT under the control of those subject to be called. The crew once called can have a equally bad return trip to their home terminal, or they might have a good trip, arriving back home at 10 PM on Wednesday from which time their 10 hour UNDISTURBED rest period starts which means that they CAN BE CALLED at 8 AM on Thursday.
They have NO CONTROL over how they get called - FIFO - First In First Out in accordance with the needs of the carrier.
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