samfp1943, I believe the current inflation rate is about 9%, not 19.5%.
SD60MAC9500 BaltACD SD60MAC9500 jeffhergert Scheduled days off, even if a rotating schedule, I think would go a long way to help retain people. We tried them once on our extra boards and everybody liked them. You may not have had the same days off every week and some cycles you might have week day rest days. Still it gave a chance for planning some events. If we had them (rest days) then the attendence policies might make some sense. How long ago did they abolish these rotating schedules? I always had the same thought that they should put operating crews on a rotation so they can at least get days off. I also believe in addition to the 10HR rest period. A 60 min "buffer" after a rest period. Only during this "buffer" time you get a call. Not during your rest period. HOS as presently implemented - the railroad is not permitted to contact a T&E employee while they are on their 10 hours UNDISTURBED REST. At 10 hours 1 minute they can be contacted, and frequently are. When marking off duty a crew MAY be instructed to go back on duty upon the expiration of their 10 hours UNDISTRUBED REST; this is not frequently done in my experience. Thanks for the correction. What if a crew doesn't work a full 12HR shift? How does the rest period work then?
BaltACD SD60MAC9500 jeffhergert Scheduled days off, even if a rotating schedule, I think would go a long way to help retain people. We tried them once on our extra boards and everybody liked them. You may not have had the same days off every week and some cycles you might have week day rest days. Still it gave a chance for planning some events. If we had them (rest days) then the attendence policies might make some sense. How long ago did they abolish these rotating schedules? I always had the same thought that they should put operating crews on a rotation so they can at least get days off. I also believe in addition to the 10HR rest period. A 60 min "buffer" after a rest period. Only during this "buffer" time you get a call. Not during your rest period. HOS as presently implemented - the railroad is not permitted to contact a T&E employee while they are on their 10 hours UNDISTURBED REST. At 10 hours 1 minute they can be contacted, and frequently are. When marking off duty a crew MAY be instructed to go back on duty upon the expiration of their 10 hours UNDISTRUBED REST; this is not frequently done in my experience.
SD60MAC9500 jeffhergert Scheduled days off, even if a rotating schedule, I think would go a long way to help retain people. We tried them once on our extra boards and everybody liked them. You may not have had the same days off every week and some cycles you might have week day rest days. Still it gave a chance for planning some events. If we had them (rest days) then the attendence policies might make some sense. How long ago did they abolish these rotating schedules? I always had the same thought that they should put operating crews on a rotation so they can at least get days off. I also believe in addition to the 10HR rest period. A 60 min "buffer" after a rest period. Only during this "buffer" time you get a call. Not during your rest period.
jeffhergert Scheduled days off, even if a rotating schedule, I think would go a long way to help retain people. We tried them once on our extra boards and everybody liked them. You may not have had the same days off every week and some cycles you might have week day rest days. Still it gave a chance for planning some events. If we had them (rest days) then the attendence policies might make some sense.
Scheduled days off, even if a rotating schedule, I think would go a long way to help retain people. We tried them once on our extra boards and everybody liked them. You may not have had the same days off every week and some cycles you might have week day rest days. Still it gave a chance for planning some events. If we had them (rest days) then the attendence policies might make some sense.
How long ago did they abolish these rotating schedules? I always had the same thought that they should put operating crews on a rotation so they can at least get days off. I also believe in addition to the 10HR rest period. A 60 min "buffer" after a rest period. Only during this "buffer" time you get a call. Not during your rest period.
HOS as presently implemented - the railroad is not permitted to contact a T&E employee while they are on their 10 hours UNDISTURBED REST. At 10 hours 1 minute they can be contacted, and frequently are. When marking off duty a crew MAY be instructed to go back on duty upon the expiration of their 10 hours UNDISTRUBED REST; this is not frequently done in my experience.
Thanks for the correction. What if a crew doesn't work a full 12HR shift? How does the rest period work then?
A crew CAN be told to report back on duty after a 4 hour 'respite'. This can happen where the runs involved will normally be completed in 6 hours or less. The respite will normally happen at the crew's away from home terminal. If the crew IS NOT instructed to return to duty prior to their marking off duty from the first run they must have 10 hours undisturbed rest before being called for their next duty assignment. The undisturbed rest provisions apply whenever crews mark off duty - no matter if that duty is actively working a train or completing a deadhead. Crews can be deadheaded from their home terminal to go on duty on a particular train upon arrival at their deadhead destination.
Once a crew marks off from their original service they get 10 hours UNDISTURBED REST unless they have been given specific instruction to come back on duty after a respite period.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The rest days we had on the extra boards was a pilot project. It was only on being tried out on the former CNW territory. The railroad pulled out because at smaller terminals and those where the extra boards primarily covered yard vacancies, they started paying out guarantee. The pilot project didn't deduct the time off from the gaurantee.
A couple of things we still have from that experiment is that if you are marked off 72hours or more and you mark back up between 1030pm and 759am, you are in a not rested status until 759am. It's not undisturbed rest, they can call you to report at 759am. One other that we had before the law required it was the 10 hours of undisturbed rest. (And they can call you at the 10 hour mark. They don't have to wait for 10 hours and one minute.)
The 10 hours undisturbed is now mandatory in most situations no matter how long your tour of duty lasts. Three hours (like on a dead head) or 12 hours, the rest period is 10 undisturbed. If you're on duty over 12 hours, the amount of time over is added to the 10 hours. For example, on duty for 14 hours and 25 minutes, two hours and 25 minutes are added to the 10 hour rest period.
There are still a few duties, like after taking a rules test, where the off duty period is still 8 hours and a non rested status. Meaning you can be called to report back 8 hours after tying up the rules test. It depends on what kind of service was performed.
Now if they call you while you're in undisturbed rest, say after only 9 hours off, you can have them restart a new 10 hour period because they interupted your rest.
Jeff
My 'read' on this roblem seems to come down to the issue of problems surrounding their employment working condtions for railroaders. The prolems surrounding the necessties of providing manpower for scheduleduled and unscheduled trains. Both on theose trains, and servicing the various 'needs' to get those trains over the road.
With a current national inflation at the reported 19.5%, and somewhat, somewhere, north of possibly, double that, currently(?) Increased wages are also, a real issue in the Craft's negtiations for their union members ?
Some years ago; I witnessed a regular 'meet' of two trains in North Alabama of NS trains. Engine crews from the two stopped trains (one East Bnd and the other West bound would dismount and swap trains. After a brief stop, each crew would then take the train back in the dierection they had originally departed. It seemed to mean that each would be back at their home terminal for what ever time off they had off until their next dispatch(?). It seemed like a good way to keep those train crews 'happy' ?
I witnessed this for a number of months on a daily 'turn' of my own: Arlington,Tn to Decatur, Al.
Time off,and various onerous job duty rerquirements have long been problematic for the railroads. The railroads seem to have always paid pretty well; but their rules and reqired work conditions, always have tended to be more on the maschostic side. Such have made turnover more, and more problematic in the industry? IMHO ?
Euclid Murphy Siding Euclid If they raise the pay high enough, it will attract workers who will be more than satisfied at the start of their career, and still have enough satisfaction to be willing to stay after they have worked long enough to realise how miserable the job is. As I recall, some time back you said that you work as a consultant, as your own boss. That explains why you seem to have no concept of the work-a-day world and work environments. I think it has given me a better understanding of the work-a-day world than most people have. I had some direct employment in the beginning, but then transitioned to product development design work as an independent contractor and also some contract excavating work. All contract work pays more per day than direct employment, but it is also temporary, so it requires constant searching for more work. I love the nature of the work and the contract arrangement allows the work to be the main experience. But contract work still has a boss whether it is an in-house supervisor in a large company or just a small client group who has invented something and wants to put it on the market. Sometimes there are excellent people to work with, but there is no end of difficult people in the world and every company is full of them. Individuals or small groups of people who hire engineers or designers often have no idea what these independent services people do. That is why they hire them as contractors. But having no idea of the work, they always underestimate the time and effort that is needed. So they often think you are not working hard enough. So there is always an urgent need to work fast enough to satisfy their unrealistic expectations. It is also always possible to do a bunch of work and then have the customer drag their feet on paying for it. In the meantime they beat the drum to do more work fast as they promise that when the ship comes in “we will all get paid.” Nothing like this can happen with direct employment.
Murphy Siding Euclid If they raise the pay high enough, it will attract workers who will be more than satisfied at the start of their career, and still have enough satisfaction to be willing to stay after they have worked long enough to realise how miserable the job is. As I recall, some time back you said that you work as a consultant, as your own boss. That explains why you seem to have no concept of the work-a-day world and work environments.
Euclid If they raise the pay high enough, it will attract workers who will be more than satisfied at the start of their career, and still have enough satisfaction to be willing to stay after they have worked long enough to realise how miserable the job is.
If they raise the pay high enough, it will attract workers who will be more than satisfied at the start of their career, and still have enough satisfaction to be willing to stay after they have worked long enough to realise how miserable the job is.
As I recall, some time back you said that you work as a consultant, as your own boss. That explains why you seem to have no concept of the work-a-day world and work environments.
Congrats.. you effectively work on straight commission.. which in a way is the most honest way to earn a living... you literally always get paid exactly what you're worth. No one pays for your time (which has no value to anyone but you)... no one frets about fairness.. doing the work and getting paid.. it' s all on you. I'm kinda in the same boat.. and wouldn't change it if I could.
BaltACD Ulrich zugmann Really reaching here. Whatever. Plenty of people here and elsewhere (and in congressional testimonies) have spoken on the issues. Ignore them all you want. Not my hill to die on.. and some of those talking heads say pay more. Truly spoken like General Custer approaching Little Big Horn.
Ulrich zugmann Really reaching here. Whatever. Plenty of people here and elsewhere (and in congressional testimonies) have spoken on the issues. Ignore them all you want. Not my hill to die on.. and some of those talking heads say pay more.
zugmann Really reaching here. Whatever. Plenty of people here and elsewhere (and in congressional testimonies) have spoken on the issues. Ignore them all you want.
Really reaching here.
Whatever. Plenty of people here and elsewhere (and in congressional testimonies) have spoken on the issues. Ignore them all you want.
Not my hill to die on.. and some of those talking heads say pay more.
Truly spoken like General Custer approaching Little Big Horn.
Yeah.. but still a hero in folklore... Crazy Horse not so much..
Backshop Ulrich No, but a trip to Congo for a year might prove to be enlightening.. we have it pretty good here.. I know.. the job isn't perfect.. and we're "unfullfilled".. but a bit of time in the jungles of Congo will make you forget your troubles. Even better, let's go back to the old Belgian Congo. I just read this book a little while ago. Why pay people to gather latex for you when you can hold their families hostage and kill them if they don't make quota? IIRC, the population of the Congo was halved due to King Leopold, who wasn't even Belgian. Those wacky European royalty! Amazon.com: King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa eBook : Hochschild, Adam, Kingsolver, Barbara: Kindle Store
Ulrich No, but a trip to Congo for a year might prove to be enlightening.. we have it pretty good here.. I know.. the job isn't perfect.. and we're "unfullfilled".. but a bit of time in the jungles of Congo will make you forget your troubles.
No, but a trip to Congo for a year might prove to be enlightening.. we have it pretty good here.. I know.. the job isn't perfect.. and we're "unfullfilled".. but a bit of time in the jungles of Congo will make you forget your troubles.
Even better, let's go back to the old Belgian Congo. I just read this book a little while ago. Why pay people to gather latex for you when you can hold their families hostage and kill them if they don't make quota? IIRC, the population of the Congo was halved due to King Leopold, who wasn't even Belgian. Those wacky European royalty!
Amazon.com: King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa eBook : Hochschild, Adam, Kingsolver, Barbara: Kindle Store
Sounds like an interesting read. We've come a long way since King Leopold.. brutalizing people and holding them hostage is expensive.. much cheaper to pay people in distressed far off countries much less... out of sight out of mind.. the middleman gets his 300% markup and we still get our junk cheap (and bonus, we still feel good about ourselves as no heads or arms were lopped off). Now just imagine if we could somehow get those little brown fingers to run our supply chain too.. imagine the savings!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Ulrich No, but a trip to Congo for a year might prove to be enlightening.. we have it pretty good here.. I know.. the job isn't perfect.. and we're "unfullfilled".. but a bit of time in the jungles of Congo will make you forget your troubles. We're just diving deeper into the rediculous here. And we wonder why companies can't get people.
We're just diving deeper into the rediculous here.
And we wonder why companies can't get people.
There are a number of reasons why SOME companies can't get people.. demographics.. poor employers, poor planning, better opportunities for job seekers..etc. In 1985 8000 applicants applied for 50 job vacancies at a GM plant in Oshawa.. can we therfore conclude that GM is Nirvana?.. the best employer on the planet in 1985? Of course not.. Likewise we can't conclude that an employer today is poor simply because that employer is short staffed and can't imminently find the help they need.
UlrichNo, but a trip to Congo for a year might prove to be enlightening.. we have it pretty good here.. I know.. the job isn't perfect.. and we're "unfullfilled".. but a bit of time in the jungles of Congo will make you forget your troubles.
Backshop Ulrich I guess maybe better the devil you know than the one you don't. As bad as things are or appear to be, they can always get much worse. Look at all the people barely making it.. and the people camped out in tents in most cities.. homelessness has exploded over the last half decade.. but on the bright side, those folks have all the time in the world to plan. We have it pretty good.. we have jobs or are retired and have a home with heating and AC.. put it into perspective... we're the top 1% of humanity.. we're relatively compfy.. no threats at our doorstep and nothing trying to kill us.. Yeah! While we're at it, let's get rid of unions, OSHA and the EPA. Then you'll know how "good" you used to have it.
Ulrich I guess maybe better the devil you know than the one you don't. As bad as things are or appear to be, they can always get much worse. Look at all the people barely making it.. and the people camped out in tents in most cities.. homelessness has exploded over the last half decade.. but on the bright side, those folks have all the time in the world to plan. We have it pretty good.. we have jobs or are retired and have a home with heating and AC.. put it into perspective... we're the top 1% of humanity.. we're relatively compfy.. no threats at our doorstep and nothing trying to kill us..
I guess maybe better the devil you know than the one you don't. As bad as things are or appear to be, they can always get much worse. Look at all the people barely making it.. and the people camped out in tents in most cities.. homelessness has exploded over the last half decade.. but on the bright side, those folks have all the time in the world to plan. We have it pretty good.. we have jobs or are retired and have a home with heating and AC.. put it into perspective... we're the top 1% of humanity.. we're relatively compfy.. no threats at our doorstep and nothing trying to kill us..
Yeah! While we're at it, let's get rid of unions, OSHA and the EPA. Then you'll know how "good" you used to have it.
zugmann Ulrich It's not an argument.. it's perspective. Of course, things can always be better. But it really is worth sometimes to take stock of what one has instead of lamenting what's missing in one's life.. And that's why companies can't get people. Of course you're also from Canada, so I'm guessing healthcare issues are slightly different.
Ulrich It's not an argument.. it's perspective. Of course, things can always be better. But it really is worth sometimes to take stock of what one has instead of lamenting what's missing in one's life..
And that's why companies can't get people. Of course you're also from Canada, so I'm guessing healthcare issues are slightly different.
Healthcare here is publicly funded... apart from that our doctors and nurses and hospitals are pretty much like yours.. Like you guys, we have our challenges.
UlrichIt's not an argument.. it's perspective. Of course, things can always be better. But it really is worth sometimes to take stock of what one has instead of lamenting what's missing in one's life..
It's not an argument.. it's perspective. Of course, things can always be better. But it really is worth sometimes to take stock of what one has instead of lamenting what's missing in one's life..
That's a cop-out argument.
Yes, things can be worse - but they can be better.
UlrichOffering more money is much easier than improving work/life balance. Transportation, particularly the operating side of it, has always been hard on home life... which is why so many say its not a job but a way of life. Unlike other jobs, the job itself requires travel and being away from home constantly. That's the nature of the beast..and there's really not much any carrier can do about something that is intrinsic to the job itself. And instead of trying to make the job as closer to "regular hours and time off" as possible, carriers should try to hire people who understand and accept the nature of the job..and off course pay accordingly.
Most already accept the 'nature of the job' what they are no longer accepting is having any ability to plan for 'their life' ie. Family matters, Doctors - all the things most employees take for granted in their employment careers.
T&E crews complain about getting 'bad calls' on their trains when the call is initiated roughly two hours before the on duty time. Try forecasting your life's need of days off, a week, a month, two months out so you can 'get permission' to use the benefits your craft contract provide for.
UlrichAnd instead of trying to make the job as closer to "regular hours and time off" as possible, carriers should try to hire people who understand and accept the nature of the job..and off course pay accordingly.
Yeah, that isn't going to happen. Even with pay raises, people don't want to waste their life away on the railroad - esp. today's companies that have so little regard for anyone. Jobs where you can't mark off if you're sick without risk of disciplinary action. Today's railroads aren't the same beasts they were even a few years ago. And it's a change that only those that lived it can comprehend.
I've seen so many jobs/ preferred pools that were eliminated with everything being basically a giant extra list anymore. Even a few years ago, there were jobs to (for lack of better term) look forward to in a few years. But guys aren't going to spend 25+ years waiting for the phone to ring at all times day or night. There's a lot of guys just waiting to see what the new contract says. A lot more than I think many realize.
so, to make this clear:
IT'S. NOT. JUST. A. MATTER. OF. PAY.
Offering more money is much easier than improving work/life balance. Transportation, particularly the operating side of it, has always been hard on home life... which is why so many say its not a job but a way of life. Unlike other jobs, the job itself requires travel and being away from home constantly. That's the nature of the beast..and there's really not much any carrier can do about something that is intrinsic to the job itself. And instead of trying to make the job as closer to "regular hours and time off" as possible, carriers should try to hire people who understand and accept the nature of the job..and of course pay accordingly.
Carriers want to offer a 3% raise and in turn raise what is paid for health insurance by the same amount and other tricks of the trade.
It's not pay for many. We're losing people who are going to jobs that pay (at best for many) 60 to 70% of what they make on the railroad. But they have days, and often weekend days, off. (A few have, or have tried, to get on with Amtrak, other commuter agencies, or short line/regionals that have more of a scheduled routine-but still pay into Railroad Retirement.)
Most of the people are leaving because of being forced to work all the time, mostly on jobs that require spending time away from home in a motel. The new attendence policies are making it hard to take uncompensated time off. Compensated time off, vacation-single days or by the week and paid personal leave days, do not count against the attendence policies. However, getting permission to use paid leave days or single day vacation days may be next to impossible to arrange. (We have a pilot program to preapprove paid leave and single vacation days, but you have to almost schedule two months in advance. For specific holidays, you have to try the minute they reach the advance window, about 5 months out.)
One thing about the pandemic related furloughs. Those aren't the people that didn't come back. Most of our furloughs that happened because of the pandemic were people that had thought they were safe from ever being furloughed again. They also weren't cut off that long.
The biggest losses, those that don't come back, are from the PSR related furloughs because of deep cuts in jobs. They hit those at and those towards the bottom who instead of getting furloughed less as they gained seniority, started getting cut more and for longer times off. We had hiring bonuses, $10K to $25K depending on location, that were paid in increments. I believe it was supposed to be paid out in 3 or 4 parts, each succeeding level reached after working so many "starts" (Job start. Instead of hours worked, we use job start because the job might be 4 or 5 hours or 10 to 12 hours or more on duty.) I think the starts to get the entire bonus was supposed to be equal to a year or year and a half. I don't know that anyone ever made it to that level, at least in my corner of the railroad. (Anyone who was furloughed and refused recall had to pay back any portion of the bonus already received.)
We haven't had a raise in a few years. Most raises in the past have just off-set employee health care contributions/co-pays. I'm not saying a raise isn't due, but that alone, even if enough to actually get a ahead for once, isn't going to get people to stay or want to come work here.
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