MRL train symbols and running times.

[greyhounds]

Vermontanan2

Helena and Livingston are much more interesting because most westward trains receive helpers at each location.  Unit trains, such as coal, grain, and crude get midtrain helpers at Helena, and these trains are chasable to Austin.  At Livingston, helpers tend to go on the rear, and everything is visable to Bozeman (and beyond) on I-90 and frontage roads.  Helena also has locals which go to Montana City and the Three Forks area, serving customers at West Townsend, Trident, Logan, Three Forks, and Sappington.  MRL also runs an M-LAUBOZ and M-BOZLAU train now to serve customers at Livingston (RY Timber) and Bozeman mostly.

OK Mark, here's my plan.

1) Win the lottery for around $800 million.

2) Buy every rail line reasonable to buy in Iowa.

3) Hire you, SD60MAC9500, jeffegret, MP173, and Los Angeles Rams Guy for senior management jobs.

4) Stay out of the way.

[Vermontanan2]

MidlandMike

What has been happening in the Butte area? I understand the mine pit has filled with water, and the Anaconda smelter site is a golf course.

Old news.  Berkeley Pit has been filling with water since the 1980s creating one of America's premier Superfund sites.  And the "Old Works" golf course was opened on a former Anaconda Co. smelting site in 1997.  It was designed by Jack Nicklaus and it, too, was once a Superfund location.

The BA&P roundhouse and trackage is still in place in Anaconda, but the only real activity there is the East Anaconda Yard (in the shadow of the giant stack) which is used for car storage (from other railroads).  In Butte, the BA&P interchanges with BNSF and serves the Montana Resources facility located on the south edge of scenic Berkeley Pit which still produces copper and molybdenum.  BNSF serves several industries along the ex-MILW main line on the south edge of town.

Silver Bow is really interesting to visit, and new industry tracks have relatively recently been constructed.  UP interchanges with BA&P and BNSF and the switching railroad is the Port of Montana.  Of special note is the UP-served auto unloading facility.  The port also serves transloading and warehousing businesses.

Ever since the BNSF and UP/SP mergers, significant interchange between BNSF and UP is minimal at Silver Bow.  But it's still interesting that Silver Bow is the only place in Montana with four railroads!

And, for those who've not yet been, Butte still has four standing railroad passenger stations: GN, NP, MILW(until 1957), MILW (1957-1964).

 

--Mark Meyer

[Vermontanan2]

Leo_Ames

I believe Trains has even speculated for instance that an early move could see the rebuilding of Homestake Pass, enabling directional running with loaded westbounds going via Mullan Pass and eastbound empties going by way of Homestake.

I think TRAINS “speculates” a lot to appease its Railfan base, knowing that there is special interest in routes like Tennessee Pass, Raton Pass, Saluda Grade, and Homestake Pass despite the reality that these routes don’t host freight trains now simply because of operating inefficiency.  I get it.  With so many railroads abandoned, people salivate at the prospect of one being revived.  But even one that was – Stampede Pass – didn’t turn out the way many had fantasized about.  It’s almost an entire eastward railroad, and I would bet BNSF wishes it had spent the money on signaling its main track rather than providing power switches and CTC islands for sidings on a route where actual meets are rare.

There’s no logical reason to ever revive Homestake Pass.  It was never a much-used freight route (except in detour scenarios).  It’s a 2.2% grade each way, and is unsignaled for the 123 miles from Logan to Garrison.  Most sidings have been removed (you still need those even on a directional railroad), and the ones that were there before it was shut down nearly 40 years ago were almost all very short.

 

Mullan Pass (the current route via Helena) has a 2.2% grade westbound, but only 1.4% eastbound.  Just about all westbounds receive a helper at Helena, but BNSF is supposed to power eastbound trains sufficiently to avoid needing a helper over Mullan (and MRL bills BNSF a steep auxiliary helper charge when the criteria is not met).  The amount of power necessary to run some eastbound trains without at helper over Mullan is often insufficient to crest the grade over Bozeman Pass (1.9%), but for some trains, a helper from Bozeman to Livingston is built into the base rate for these train movements.  Minimum power for eastbound merchandise trains, for instance, is the power to make the grade on Mullan Pass single.  Were Homestake put in service for a directional-eastward operation, merchandise trains would need additional road power OR an additional helper base would need to be established at Butte to push the trains to Homestake (due to the eastbound grade increasing from 1.4% to 2.2%).  Not something likely palatable to BNSF.  In theory, this problem could be eliminated by flipping the directionality: Westbounds via Homestake (same grade as Mullan) and keeping the eastbounds via Mullan.  But with the epic amount of curvature on the Homestake Pass route, no way would this ever be considered for 18,000+ ton unit trains.  (If you haven’t done so, trace the Homestake Pass route on Google Earth.  Without doubt, it’s one of the curviest – with curves the sharpest – in the country!)

 

Then there’s the operations side of things were this to happen.  Currently crews are at home in Laurel and Missoula and run to Helena.  If eastbound trains were to operate via Homestake, an intermediate crew change point on that route would need to be established, such as Whitehall or Three Forks.  This would also necessitate establishing an awkward transfer (by highway) situation between that crew change point and Helena to get crews in position for the return trip home (akin to the La Junta-Trinidad situation on BNSF between Denver and Amarillo).  Far from an ideal setup in an area specializing in mountains and winter.  And any additional crew change location or helper base would logically require additional track and crew accommodation infrastructure.  An extremely expensive proposition any way you look at it.

 

Should additional capacity be required, the obvious solution is one that has been successfully executed numerous times since the BN merger in 1970:  Run some of the traffic – especially heavy westbound unit trains - via Great Falls, Shelby, and Whitefish.  The current configuration of coal trains would require no additional power to crest Marias Pass, and other trains (grain, crude) would require one additional locomotive.  No helpers would be used, and most trains would operate with distributed power (on each end of the train, nothing cut in the middle, as is the case with helpers at Helena).  Past scenarios for using this route include use after fulfilling the MRL car count quota, service interruptions, and situations like the 21,000-ton (now defunct) coal Trough Train.  Though about 95 miles longer, the route through Great Falls posts a similar running time as the Helena route, but does consume a bit more fuel (despite helper power not being used).  The big savings is not needing to maintain multiple helper consists and pay multiple helper crews at two locations.  The fact that the Great Falls routing has never been a very long-term routing for heavy unit trains between Mossmain (Laurel) and Sandpoint is a testimony to the “Catch 22” aspect of Montana Rail Link:  Run the trains via Great Falls and then possibly not fulfill the quota and pay the penalty or use the MRL route even though it’s more costly for the heaviest (not all) trains.  The salient point is that, by plan, the MRL has skewed how traffic has moved across Montana for the past 35 years.

 

I’m not expecting any immediate or even near-future changes to the operation in Southern Montana when BNSF takes over (as MRL has indeed enhanced the route’s infrastructure), but without doubt, BNSF will appreciate not having to accommodate artificially-created parameters on how to move its traffic.  And you can bet Homestake Pass won’t be part of the plan.

--Mark Meyer

[MidlandMike]

Vermontanan2

...From a railroading perspective, even the UP, BNSF, BA&P and Port of Montana railroads at Butte and Silver Bow are more unique and interesting.

What has been happening in the Butte area? I understand the mine pit has filled with water, and the Anaconda smelter site is a golf course.

[Erik_Mag]

Vermontanan2

 Also, if you're looking at hotel prices this summer, avoid Missoula and Bozeman; they're hyperexpensive.  Helena, Butte and Livingston are much more reasonable.

With the northern (Gardiner) entrance to Yellowstone being closed, I would expect Livingston hotel prices to especially reasonable. Stopped for dinner there 1 1/2 weeks ago and the restaurant traffic seemed to be noticeably less than when stopping for dinner in Sept 2019.

I did see several MRL trains when driving I-90 between Bozeman and Columbus this year.

[Bruce Kelly]

BNSF investing the money to reopen Homestake was contingent upon a substantial increase in export coal through new terminals that were proposed in the PNW. It was the prospect of coal growth, more than any other form of traffic, that had BNSF and MRL officials hirailing Homestake a number of times in recent years. But WA and OR have blocked those proposed terminals, and BC has not increased its export capacity enough to fully accommodate the growing demand for thermal coal overseas.

[SD60MAC9500]

 

Leo_Ames

 

 

BaltACD

Any doubt the BNSF has been leading MRL during the lease?  

 

 

They're spending an awful lot of money to end the lease early, so there's got to be a good reason for it like exercising control.

Hasn't it been said that MRL hasn't invested in increasing capacity like BNSF would've liked (such as adding sidings) and had become a bit of a bottleneck on their network during busier times of the year? That seems to be a big factor behind this, bringing infrastructure decisions on this line under in-house control.

I believe Trains has even speculated for instance that an early move could see the rebuilding of Homestake Pass, enabling directional running with loaded westbounds going via Mullan Pass and eastbound empties going by way of Homestake.

Many view that as unlikely, but it could get interesting. Scouting it out on Google Maps months ago doesn't reveal much in the way of obvious issues for instance, so there might not be much outcry to reopening it for more than just the occasional hi-rail truck.

On the inactive segment there's intact track and grade crossings and no significant encroachment on the right of way. I do recall spotting a small apartment complex not far from the tracks that looked like a modern addition since trains last regularly ran on the line, but that was all that stuck out as a spot where maybe some mitigation measures might be justified.

I'm sure there would be some issues to be addressed, but where actual rebuilding is concerned, it looks like it would be relatively easy if BNSF decides it's justified.

 

Homestake Pass coming back has very low if any probabality.. 

Homestake Pass would need a complete RoW rebuild, upgraded signals, etc.. Not sure BNSF even needs HSP. 

 

[Leo_Ames]

BaltACD

Any doubt the BNSF has been leading MRL during the lease?  

They're spending an awful lot of money to end the lease early, so there's got to be a good reason for it like exercising control.

Hasn't it been said that MRL hasn't invested in increasing capacity like BNSF would've liked (such as adding sidings) and had become a bit of a bottleneck on their network during busier times of the year? That seems to be a big factor behind this, bringing infrastructure decisions on this line under in-house control.

I believe Trains has even speculated for instance that an early move could see the rebuilding of Homestake Pass, enabling directional running with loaded westbounds going via Mullan Pass and eastbound empties going by way of Homestake.

Many view that as unlikely, but it could get interesting. Scouting it out on Google Maps months ago doesn't reveal much in the way of obvious issues for instance, so there might not be much outcry to reopening it for more than just the occasional hi-rail truck.

On the inactive segment there's intact track and grade crossings and no significant encroachment on the right of way. I do recall spotting a small apartment complex not far from the tracks that looked like a modern addition since trains last regularly ran on the line, but that was all that stuck out as a spot where maybe some mitigation measures might be justified.

I'm sure there would be some issues to be addressed, but where actual rebuilding is concerned, it looks like it would be relatively easy if BNSF decides it's justified.

[Vermontanan2]

Commissar_Elmo

The original lease is from the BN days. Apparently they didn't have enough traffic back then to justify trains. But now they do. BNSF runs something like 10 daily trains each way on the MRL now. Most of them coal. 

No, the lease was indeed a move to subvert existing union agreements.  Most notably, to implement the two-person crew, and to scrap the onerous ex-NP helper agreements on Bozeman and Mullan Passes.  The amoun of traffic was never an issue except that BN (now BNSF) guarantees MRL a certain amount of traffic every quarter, regardless of economic conditions.  That's why it's impossible to declare MRL a success or failure; it's an artificially-created entity with an artificially-created amount of traffic.

Most BNSF traffic on MRL is general freight (merchandise).  These can be up to three trains daily each way.  Coal traffic can be about 2-3 trains daily each way (loaded and empty).  Just about all the coal is going to Roberts Bank, BC for export.  About 1.5 intermodal trains daily each way.  Grain traffic depends on seasonal demand at the export locations along the Columbia River and Puget Sound.  2 to 3 trains daily each way are possible.  Crude trains (and empties) are intermittent.  There's a major rock pit at Pipestone (on the Homestake Pass line west of Whitehall) which loads trains for BNSF.  Although less than 1 train per day, there's always a Pipestone ballast train in the pipeline somewhere.

[Vermontanan2]

Commissar_Elmo

I am planning on going up to Montana to catch MRL trains before it is to late. I only have a day or so up there so I'm planning on sticking in Missoula. Is there a pattern to how the MRL operates?

Here is what I know so far

Missoula is the base for:

the Gas local, which runs daily up to Thompson falls.

the LAUMOU and MOULAU which run daily

helper base for Mullan pass is there

crew change point between 4th and 3rd subs.

The three-letter station ID for Missoula is "MIS."  Therefore, the Laurel-Missoula and Missoula-Laurel trains are the M-LAUMIS and M-MISLAU respectively.  But everyone still just calls them the "LM" and "ML" from the days prior to BN's purchase of the Santa Fe and the change in computer systems.

The helpers for Mullan Pass are based in Helena, not Missoula.

There are still a fair amount of local industries in Missoula (and DeSmet), but locals from Missoula to anywhere range from none to few.  The MRL Facebook page might be a good resource for up-to-date information.  The branches from Missoula to Darby and Dixon to Polson are officially "discontinued" but there's little chance they will ever see use again with the exception of the first few miles out of Dixon for car storage.

If you really want to see the best action on the MRL, Missoula is not the place to be.  It has a good-sized yard and indeed all trains change crews there.  Some trains even receive their inspections.  But other than the Scott Avenue viaduct, it's hard to get a good view of anything.  Becase MRL doesn't run any of its own merchandise trains west of Missoula, BNSF merchandise trains can reduce and fill there.  Everything else runs through.  Other than the gas plant at Pipeline (Thompson Falls), the only other regular customer west of DeSmet (which is just west of Missoula) on MRL is at Cedars, just east of Superior.  There are no regular customers east of Missoula to Helena, but the MISLAU and LAUMIS pick up and set out cars to/from BNSF's Copper City subdivision at Garrison.

Helena and Livingston are much more interesting because most westward trains receive helpers at each location.  Unit trains, such as coal, grain, and crude get midtrain helpers at Helena, and these trains are chasable to Austin.  At Livingston, helpers tend to go on the rear, and everything is visable to Bozeman (and beyond) on I-90 and frontage roads.  Helena also has locals which go to Montana City and the Three Forks area, serving customers at West Townsend, Trident, Logan, Three Forks, and Sappington.  MRL also runs an M-LAUBOZ and M-BOZLAU train now to serve customers at Livingston (RY Timber) and Bozeman mostly.

In other words, Missoula is not where you wanna go.  From a railroading perspective, even the UP, BNSF, BA&P and Port of Montana railroads at Butte and Silver Bow are more unique and interesting.  Also, if you're looking at hotel prices this summer, avoid Missoula and Bozeman; they're hyperexpensive.  Helena, Butte and Livingston are much more reasonable.

--Mark Meyer

[Commissar_Elmo]

The original lease is from the BN days. Apparently they didn't have enough traffic back then to justify trains. But now they do. BNSF runs something like 10 daily trains each way on the MRL now. Most of them coal.

[BaltACD]

Commissar_Elmo

Yea but because it's such a massive change. I. E about 600 miles of main line track, 40 or so locomotives plus however much rolling stock, and the hundreds of employees. It had to go through the STB for the lease so it will have to go through it to end it.

Any doubt the BNSF has been leading MRL during the lease?  Class 1 carriers only lease out lines to other operators in order to 'break' the union agreements that are in effect for the crafts on the leased line.  Old operator is no longer on the hook, employees have to deal with the 'new' operator that cries they don't have the financial ability to honor the previous contracts.  Poor Me. Poor Me!

[Commissar_Elmo]

Yea but because it's such a massive change. I. E about 600 miles of main line track, 40 or so locomotives plus however much rolling stock, and the hundreds of employees. It had to go through the STB for the lease so it will have to go through it to end it.

[BaltACD]

Commissar_Elmo

They aren't yet. But if they do STB approval will be in by the end of the year. right now they are busy with the traffic holdup fiasco.

Not sure that the STB is even involved - MRL has been operating the trackage that has been owned by BNSF under lease.  BNSF is ending the lease.

[Commissar_Elmo]

They aren't yet. But if they do STB approval will be in by the end of the year. right now they are busy with the traffic holdup fiasco.

[BaltACD]

When is BNSF slated to take over the operation of MRL?

[Commissar_Elmo]

I am planning on going up to Montana to catch MRL trains before it is to late. I only have a day or so up there so I'm planning on sticking in Missoula. Is there a pattern to how the MRL operates?

 

Here is what I know so far

Missoula is the base for:

the Gas local, which runs daily up to Thompson falls.

the LAUMOU and MOULAU which run daily

helper base for Mullan pass is there

crew change point between 4th and 3rd subs.

Are there any other big things I should know about operations? Such as other MRL based trains? I would like to know if there are any other locals that base out of Missoula. And if possible the estimated departure times for all trains originaring or terminating there. 

thank you for the help.