In the old western movies, the good guys and bad guys are always running along the tops of train cars. Were train cars built differently back then that the roof surfaces were close enough to each other to do that? I've seen lots of illustrations of the bad old days, showing several brakemen on top of old-time trains-always in a blizzard-turning brake wheels on top of cars. Where did those guys ride when their braking services weren't needed?
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Murphy Siding In the old western movies, the good guys and bad guys are always running along the tops of train cars. Were train cars built differently back then that the roof surfaces were close enough to each other to do that? I've seen lots of illustrations of the bad old days, showing several brakemen on top of old-time trains-always in a blizzard-turning brake wheels on top of cars. Where did those guys ride when their braking services weren't needed?
I've seen lots of illustrations of the bad old days, showing several brakemen on top of old-time trains-always in a blizzard-turning brake wheels on top of cars. Where did those guys ride when their braking services weren't needed?
Back in the 'olden days' box type cars did have a roof walkway along the centerline of the cars. Also in the olden days, freight train speeds I have been led to believe were in the 20-30 MPH range or less - especially in the days before air brakes. In the days before air brakes, brakemen had to move from car to car to apply the stemwinder brakes on each car using their brake club for additional leverage on the brake wheel. Brakes were applied on whistle signal and would also be released on whistle signal.
Box type cars were still built with roof walkways into 1960's (I think). The specific date where roof walkways were made illegal is October 1, 1966. After the date of illegality, the side ladders on cars, to reach the roof, were removed when the cars went through car shops for routine repairs. Covered hopers still have roof walkways, however, they exist for the personnel that load and unload the cars, not for railway employees.
Brakemen would reside in the caboose, if it wasn't necessary for them to be on the cars actively brakeing or releaseing brakes - considering the 'built on the lay of the ground' nature of early railroads there would be many occasions where brakeing would be required to maintain control of the train. Cuts and fills cost a lot of money, money the early railroads didn't have.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDBrakemen would reside in the caboose, if it wasn't necessary for them to be on the cars actively brakeing or releaseing brakes - considering the 'built on the lay of the ground' nature of early railroads there would be many occasions where brakeing would be required to maintain control of the train. Cuts and fills cost a lot of money, money the early railroads didn't have.
Some steam locomotive tenders had a small room behind the coal bin for the head end brakeman.
In this old railroad-themed Hollywood movie you can see the roofwalks in use starting just before the 3 minute mark and again a minute or two later (James Cagney!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayedmZCMoGQ
Cars with roofwalks were not finally banned from interchange service until I believe the mid-1970's, although new cars stopped being built with roofwalks in the early 60's. Of course some cars still have roofwalks for loading, like covered hoppers.
wjstix In this old railroad-themed Hollywood movie you can see the roofwalks in use starting just before the 3 minute mark and again a minute or two later (James Cagney!). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayedmZCMoGQ Cars with roofwalks were not finally banned from interchange service until I believe the mid-1970's, although new cars stopped being built with roofwalks in the early 60's. Of course some cars still have roofwalks for loading, like covered hoppers.
The roofwalks did overhang the end of the cars a bit, but they weren't super close together when coupled up. Maybe about a foot apart. This link has some good pictures from WW2 era....
https://www.mylargescale.com/threads/question-about-boxcars-1940s.12919/
Note too that on many cars the brakewheel was sticking up above the roofline a bit. They could be operated from the roof itself, but also could be set from the ladder or steps leading up the end of the car. Before retarders were put into humpyards, yard workers would ride towards the tops of the cars to manually brake them after they went over the hump.
p.s. This old GN training film has some good information about roofwalks / brakes too, starting about 15 minutes in. But you might want to watch the whole thing, it's pretty good (and has some model railroading towards the end.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqpayZ2JqlU
A typical road crew in Texas when my dad was firing in the late Thirties was
1) Locomotive Cab - Engineman, Fireman, Head Breakman
2) Caboose - Conductor, Rear Brakeman, Swing Brakeman
The front and rear brakemen had the the duty of flagging if the train made an unnscheduled stop outside yard limits. They also opened and closed turnouts as needed. The swing brakie covered the center of the train when they had to decorate the car tops and relayed signals between the cab and caboose when switching. The caboose crew also manned the cupola when the train was in motion. This was usually a task of one or both brakemen as the conductor would be busy at his desk working on his wheel report and other paperwork. As mentioned, the brakemen had wooden staves they inserted between the spokes of brake wheels to give them leverage when turning the wheel. In an earlier and rougher age, they made handy weapons against various miscreants.
On coal fired locomotives, the head end brakie often helped and spelled the fireman on tough stretches - many times he had more experience than the often new fireboy and could provide tips on how to fire the locomotive.
IIRC, sometime in the early Thirties, the ICC issued a ukase that the headend brakeman needed a place to sit down. Many lines just installed a folding seat behind the fireman. It was not uncommon for new steamers to have elongated cabs to accomodate this feature.
The luckiest were given their own "doghouse" on the tender, where they rode nice, dry and warm in solitary steam heated splendor.
BEAUSABRE A typical road crew in Texas when my dad was firing in the late Thirties was 1) Locomotive Cab - Enginman, Fireman, Head Breakman 2) Caboose - Conductor, Rear Brakeman, Swing Brakeman The front and rear brakemen had the the duty of flagging if the train made an unnscheduled stop outside yard limits. They also opened and closed turnouts as needed. The swing brakie covered the center of the train when they had to decorate the car tops and relayed signals between the cab and caboose when switching. The caboose crew also manned the cupola when the train was in motion. This was usually a task of one or both brakemen as the conductor would be busy at his desk working on his wheel report and other paperwork. As mentioned, the brakemen had wooden staves they inserted between the spokes of brake wheels to give them leverage when turning the wheel. In an earlier and rougher age, they made handy weapons against various miscreants. On coal fired locomotives, the head end brakie often helped and spelled the fireman on tough stretches - many times he had more experience than the often new fireboy and could provide tips on how to fire the locomotive. IIRC, sometime in the early Thirties, the ICC issued a ukase that the headend brakeman needed a place to sit down. Many lines just installed a folding seat behind the fireman. It was not uncommon for new steamers to have elongated cabs to accomodate this feature. The luckiest were given their own "doghouse" on the tender, where they rode nice, dry and warm in solitary steam heated splendor.
1) Locomotive Cab - Enginman, Fireman, Head Breakman
Seems like I've read that on more than a few occasions, trains arrived at their next terminal short a crew member, said crew member having fallen off the roof enroute...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Seems like I've read that on more than a few occasions, trains arrived at their next terminal short a crew member, said crew member having fallen off the roof enroute...
In reading through serveral ICC derailment reports about incidents that happened in mountainous territory - the reports made it seem like a brakemans duty - back then - was also to turn up and turn down retainers on moving trains. That must have been even more fun than all their other duties - note this is during that air brake era, not the pre-air brake era where the brakeman was simultaneously the brake application and retainer.
Based on info in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia, and confirmed by a few other sources, the distance between the typical steam era house car was 43", and the typical roof walkway projected 8-10 inches past the end of the car, making the gap to be stepped over between 23 and 27 inches.
Sheldon
You can still see elevator personnel walking between covered hoppers when they are getting ready to load them.
Reading accounts that date to that era, it might not take that many brakes to slow or stop a train. (Of course, we're not talking about mountain grades.) It was possible with some cabooses to rig a chain from the caboose to the last car. Operating the caboose brake also set up the last car's brake. On a small, slow train that might be enough to control speed, even stop when taking into account the engine's brake being used.
Other times and other places you'ld have the two, or three, brakemen "deckorating" the top. And yes, there were many accounts of brakemen, especially during bad weather, being blown from the tops.
Jeff
When cushioned underframes extended the distance between cars some cars were given extended roofwalks to span the extra distance.
How did the brakeman move from car to car on an empty hopper train?
Those guys must have been acrobats. As my grandfather would say, the good old days weren't all that good.
Murphy Siding Is the doghouse on the tender made so that the brakemen can look back and keep an eye on the train, like the crew in the caboose looking forward?
Yes, on the ones I've seen, the brakeman is seated facing backwards. There were windows on the rear and side walls, but the side facing the engine was usually blank.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/dog-house
On some railroads in steam days, the caboose crew job titles were conductor, (rear) brakeman, and flagman.
Not sure I would want all those cinders coming in on my back as I watched to the rear in a doghouse, hence the blank facing the front. Even oil burners left a residue.
Was the brakeman on top of the cars an entry level job from which you could work your way up to being the president of the company? Or was it an unskilled labor job, working as a replaceable part in a machine?
Murphy SidingWas the brakeman on top of the cars an entry level job from which you could work your way up to being the president of the company? Or was it an unskilled labor job, working as a replaceable part in a machine?
It was unskilled labor that could work its way to being president of the company - depending on the abilities and desires of the individual. Back in the day there wasn't as much of gulf in knowledge between top and bottom of a organization as exists today.
Andrew Carnegie started out as a messenger boy in the telegraph office in Pittsburgh in 1849. "Starting in 1853, when Carnegie was around 18 years old, Thomas A. Scott of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company employed him as a secretary/telegraph operator at a salary of $4.00 per week ($130 by 2021 inflation)" That's below minimum wage today.
Murphy Siding Was the brakeman on top of the cars an entry level job from which you could work your way up to being the president of the company? Or was it an unskilled labor job, working as a replaceable part in a machine?
I recall reading that brakemen were essentially considered an expendable commodity. The widow might get a small payment from the railroad, but that was it.
Workman's comp and the like were still in the future.
OTOH, an injured employee might be given another job, if there was one he could do. I think crossing guards one one of them.
There is a story about a railroad brakeman creating a flat spot on a wheelset because he tied the hand brake too tight. The railroad docked his pay for the wheelset.
The railroad then had the wheel trued up and put it back in service. The brakeman found out that it was back in service and sued the railroad for using "his" wheelset that he had paid for. He won in court and the railroad was forced to pay the brakeman a royalty for as long as the wheelset remained in service.
It's probably a tall tale from the past, but it would be nice if it were true.
I could not imagine running back and forth on the roofwalk of boxcars during a dark winter night with snow blowing and the walkway covered in ice, especially on a twisty sloped railroad with the cars rocking and rolling. I would think that a brakeman would be considered to be as expendable as a railroad tie
Also, back in the day, how many cars would a single brakeman be responsible for? Maybe one guy for 10 or so cars? Or more?
I would opine that "it depends" how many cars per brakeman.
I would think it would be self-limiting. The motive power of the day was limited in its capability. I don't recall the average length of a freight at the time (someone will chime in...) This would be doubly true in hilly/mountainous terrain, where the brakeman's services would be more in demand.
Bringing the practice forward to today, you'd probably have a crew car every so many cars to the brakemen could reach the majority of the train in a timely fashion.
tree68 I would opine that "it depends" how many cars per brakeman. I would think it would be self-limiting. The motive power of the day was limited in its capability. I don't recall the average length of a freight at the time (someone will chime in...) This would be doubly true in hilly/mountainous terrain, where the brakeman's services would be more in demand. Bringing the practice forward to today, you'd probably have a crew car every so many cars to the brakemen could reach the majority of the train in a timely fashion.
As I recall, the West Burlington (IA) Westinghouse air brake tests in the early 1880s used trains up to 50 cars long. I imagine that may have been an overly large train for the day. (The tests were using the original straight air system and it was found that the brakes towards the front set up harder and faster then cars on the rear end.) Besides pulling capacity of locomotives, one would have to take into account how much stress the link and pin couplers could take. I would guess that in some locations, drawbar force would be more likely to limit how many cars could be pulled.
The Janney coupler and modern Westinghouse air brake did as much to increase train sizes, length and weight, as did larger capacity engines.
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