If anyone has any questions about how bad a Li/ion battery fire could be in a locomotive just ask the city of Morris IL. They had what could have been considered the equivilent of one a couple years ago. 25 Tons of batteries going up at once. It took dumping concrete in powder to get it out and over a week before people could get home. Now just imagine that happening in say Chicago or LA and the fire spreads to other locomotives and or cars loaded with hazmat. Lord help the first responders and Legal for the Railroad better be on speed dial as they are going to be needed in a hurry.
BaltACD If we think a runaway diesel is bad - it doesn't hold a candle to a runaway battery, especially a battery big enough to power a locomotive.
If we think a runaway diesel is bad - it doesn't hold a candle to a runaway battery, especially a battery big enough to power a locomotive.
I'm quite aware of how intense a Li-ion fire can be, which why the comparison with an ECCS was only half in jest. With the chain reaction stopped by a scram, the reactor is still producing 6% of the power from decay heat.
Progress is being made, as laptop and cell phone battery fires were a problem back in the aughties. This is the main reason why the FAA limits laptop batteries to 100 watt-hrs.
MidlandMikeI saw a documentary on Li-ION batteries. Under some circumstances the electrolite can start to crystalize, forming long chains that can bridge the gap, short out causing immediate discharge and run-away heat. They had a potential fix, but as I remember it would take quite a redesign change.
As I recall the Apollo program required a major redesign for safety.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I saw a documentary on Li-ION batteries. Under some circumstances the electrolite can start to crystalize, forming long chains that can bridge the gap, short out causing immediate discharge and run-away heat. They had a potential fix, but as I remember it would take quite a redesign change.
EuclidI think that preventing that cause would be relatively easy by using an overload protection cutout.
It would be interesting to know whether such batteries have "short time ratings," like locomotives. I'd hate to be in a traffic situation which called for "punching it" only to have the car say" nope - overload...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Erik_Mag Overmod more watertight, and arrange spray nozzles in this space connected to pressurized water, perhaps even using a booster pump arrangement. OM, are you talking about a battery safety system or the emergency core cooling system for a nuclear power reactor?? Methinks that for a battery locomotive, it would behoove the designers to be especially generous with the fluid capacity of the battery's thermal management system. As you poited out, boiling the water would absorb a lot of heat.
Overmod more watertight, and arrange spray nozzles in this space connected to pressurized water, perhaps even using a booster pump arrangement.
more watertight, and arrange spray nozzles in this space connected to pressurized water, perhaps even using a booster pump arrangement.
OM, are you talking about a battery safety system or the emergency core cooling system for a nuclear power reactor??
Methinks that for a battery locomotive, it would behoove the designers to be especially generous with the fluid capacity of the battery's thermal management system. As you poited out, boiling the water would absorb a lot of heat.
Part of the battery is the amount of energy (Kilowatts) stored in them. A fault is like a short circuit with NO fuse or circuit breaker to stop the flow of energy to the short. An analogy is an electric welder gone wild. It is going to be interesting to see who comes up with a good safe way to b.uild them. I wonder if any Prius's have caught fire since the 2018 recall. Google did not show me any
I love the "Bullet Birds" built from 61 to 63. I drove one but it wasn't mine. I wanted one badly until the Mustang came out. it was Iacocca's singular work of genius as there never was a car like it before. My all time favourite Mustang was the 66 Fastback I saw at a car show. 6 cylinder, 3 speed with overdrive and old-school Cragars. The guy said it got 27 MPG. All of the chassis plates were in German and it had a metric speedometer. Made to be rented in Germany by Hertz. Almsot a captive market with all the American soldiers stationed over there back then. "Payday! Let's rent one of those new Mustangs!"
Flintlock76 An electric, four door Mustang. I don't know which is more wrong. Oh yeah, Lee Iacocca must be spinning in his grave at 2,000 RPM!
An electric, four door Mustang. I don't know which is more wrong.
Oh yeah, Lee Iacocca must be spinning in his grave at 2,000 RPM!
And the electric drive -- actually being sold as a retrofit package for older cars by Ford! -- sure beats the heck out of ANY six-cylinder Mustang ever sold, and there were many, many of those.
The box Birds didn't last long; they were a product of the same miscalculation that led to the Edsel division. But what persisted was four-seat Birds, and my '62 was a particularly useful example of the formula: if you wanted the two-seater vibe, you put the tonneau cover on, and the engine under the hood was a 390 FE with a 650 double-pumper... with four perfectly symmetrical venturis... which was easily good for 130mph, far beyond what either the damping or the tires were really good for. And if you put the girl in the middle of the back seat, her long blonde hair would blow straight forward at 80mph, at which speed the loudest sound was the patter of the tires on the road, and you could identify all four of them. That is not a 'sports car' but it was certainly as fun as one in a different set of ways.
It does remain to be seen whether Ford understands how to do ludicrous+ speed, but it is certainly an aftermarket probability... at least until the street-racing community discovers the possibilities.
tree68If it proves to be a problem, perhaps making the battery enclosure essentially watertight, and adding a fire department connection to the locomotive...
The current fire-department dodge in Tesla fires appears to be to tip the car on its side and play hoses on the bottom until the stranded-charge effects cease. As I noted some time ago, Tesla and other manufacturers are going to have to provide some sort of test arrangement or architecture for first responders to verify fill discharge of all cells before departing, or allowing transport of the vehicle -- this is not rocket science, but requires good detail design and implementation at a (nominally) higher cost.
The correct thing to do in the locomotive case is probably to make the ventilation system for the battery -- which will be of considerable cooling capacity and rate on a properly-designed locomotive -- more watertight, and arrange spray nozzles in this space connected to pressurized water, perhaps even using a booster pump arrangement. This would flash water to steam with greatest efficiency, carrying away the maximum heat in the (lavish) steam analogous to how misters in garden restaurants reduce air temperature. (That at any rate is the approach I anticipate using for this concern... derived by analogy to the Reid-Ramsay turbine's condenser arrangement, but better oprimized)
54light15 An electric, four door Mustang. I don't know which is more wrong.
Oh yeah, Lee Iaccoca must be spinning in his grave at 2,000 RPM!
54light15An electric, four door Mustang. I don't know which is more wrong.
Going back to the 'early days' of the Thunderbird - when it got turned into a four door lead sled - Ford does know how to screw up good things.
samfp1943THIS Thread seems to beg the question: In regards to these new Battery Electric Locomotives (?) IF submersion is the fastest 'Fix" for a Lithium/Ion battery fire... On who's authority does one run the engine in to the closest river or creek? to extinguish the fire, and then; what department (supervisor) gets to write the loss report out for THAT loss?
If it proves to be a problem, perhaps making the battery enclosure essentially watertight, and adding a fire department connection to the locomotive...
samfp1943 THIS Thread seems to beg the question: In regards to these new Battery Electric Locomotives (?) IF submersion is the fastest 'Fix" for a Lithium/Ion battery fire... On who's authority does one run the engine in to the closest river or creek? to extinguish the fire, and then; what department (supervisor) gets to write the loss report out for THAT loss?
THIS Thread seems to beg the question: In regards to these new Battery Electric Locomotives (?) IF submersion is the fastest 'Fix" for a Lithium/Ion battery fire... On who's authority does one run the engine in to the closest river or creek? to extinguish the fire, and then; what department (supervisor) gets to write the loss report out for THAT loss?
Euclid What causes lithium ion battery fires to ignite, and what is the fuel that burns in a L.I. battery fire? Is there a known technical solution to eliminate L.I. battery fires? If so, what is it? Maybe the answers are in this link: https://www.ionenergy.co/resources/blogs/battery-safety/#:~:text=However%2C%20lithium%2Dion%20batteries%20are,and%20can%20cause%20widespread%20damage.
What causes lithium ion battery fires to ignite, and what is the fuel that burns in a L.I. battery fire?
Is there a known technical solution to eliminate L.I. battery fires? If so, what is it?
Maybe the answers are in this link:
https://www.ionenergy.co/resources/blogs/battery-safety/#:~:text=However%2C%20lithium%2Dion%20batteries%20are,and%20can%20cause%20widespread%20damage.
Typically it's a short in the EV's battery pack. Wayne mentioned above that FD's have tried to use the methods I stated, but I can't find anything besides FD's using water.
There's currently a metallic filmed blanket testing to extinguish li-ion battery fires. Also a fluid called AVD
https://www.avdfire.com/
Of course these come with greater cost than water.
ROBIN LUETHE Batteries for EVs are still a fairly novel and new technology. It is going to take a few years for battery fires to be reduced and for fire departments to have the gear and training to combat them. And even as things are now, EV fires are far less to be feared than natural gas explosions from faulty gas lines and appliances.
Batteries for EVs are still a fairly novel and new technology. It is going to take a few years for battery fires to be reduced and for fire departments to have the gear and training to combat them. And even as things are now, EV fires are far less to be feared than natural gas explosions from faulty gas lines and appliances.
In the words of a fellow from GM's Proving Grounds, after an apparent EV fire there this spring, and as quoted in the Detroit News - such fires are going to be "exposure events. "
Protect the exposures and don't worry about the vehicle itself.
Thousands of gallons of water are just a waste of time and resources, unless you can submerge the vehicle, as indicated in the article cited in the thread. We can hope that some technology is developed that will allow fire departments to extinguish these fires, or that some technology in the batteries themselves will be developed to make them self extinguishing.
blue streak 1 FD eventually put car and battery into pit of water. Might be something for us posters to remember. Watch: Sacramento firefighters fight their first Tesla fire that kept reigniting (msn.com)
FD eventually put car and battery into pit of water. Might be something for us posters to remember.
Watch: Sacramento firefighters fight their first Tesla fire that kept reigniting (msn.com)
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
zugmann One of the Ford brochures I read talked about you can use the new F150 hybrid as a level 2 charger for electric cars. So you can get a hybrid F150 to charge up your Mustang Mach-E.
One of the Ford brochures I read talked about you can use the new F150 hybrid as a level 2 charger for electric cars.
So you can get a hybrid F150 to charge up your Mustang Mach-E.
Now that might make a good marketing strategy for Ford:
"Buy a new F150 Hybrid and we'll make you a deal on a Mustang Mach-E!"
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Makes charging it up kind of hard.
Makes charging it up kind of hard.
Yeah. Maybe he could use a charger hooked up to a gasoline powered generator?
54light15 A friend has a new Chevy Bolt? Volt? The small one, anyway. He got a service bulletin telling him not to park it indoors and to keep it away from buildings. Otherwise it's a fairly nice car.
A friend has a new Chevy Bolt? Volt? The small one, anyway. He got a service bulletin telling him not to park it indoors and to keep it away from buildings. Otherwise it's a fairly nice car.
Well as ol' Ben Franklin once said:
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"
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