Steve Otte was right to lock that thread on "federal dispatching."
I propose a simple code of conduct: State any fact, pseudo-fact, or opinion. Just do not impugn others. If you think another person is wrong, or not even qualified to comment on a subject, you are within your rights to think that. But it serves no useful purpose to personally challenge, malign or otherwise confront another member.
In fact these attacks and snarky moments often have the opposite effect than intended anyway. One of the more opinionated posters recently remarked that I seem to know very little based upon how much I was following a particular issue. Now, this person has the right to think that, just as I had the right to think he is full of bull in those bodily parts where he is not full of himself. But I did not respond. What is gained by these pi$$ing contests? Nothing, that's what. However, what it did result in is that I now have much less respect for the individual, and will value his opinions less, and more readily be wary of his supposed facts.
Please just say your piece about the subject. And let others say theirs. But do not engage others in a negative way, period. It's simple.
That's my opinion.
Still in training.
Have we all become so thin-skinned that no criticism is allowed?
As the Dodo says in "Alice in Wonderland" --
L.O. I generally I tend to agree with you, on most things. But in this case I have only overwhelming support for your proposal....well put.
We should all know how to disagree without feeling compelled to editorialize on the sources we disaree with.
To challenge and to disagree is fine.. to malign is not. Unfortunately many today view disagreement as a personal affront.
LO- That only works in a perfect world. As long as you have two different people, you're going to have two different opinions on things. To say that I can type anything I want as being the truth and have you nobody question my "truth" causes problems. Let's say I post that steam locomotives are actually dragons, and that all modern locomotives use marshmallows for wheels. I've said it, therefore it must be true. If I repeat this nonsense over and over, eventually you're going to lose patience and say something. I'm happier if someone does challenge things so that I can learn more. It's all in how that challenge is presented. If you say "No you dummy! Those wheels aren't marshmallows!!!", well, we're headed to the sandbox to throw sand at each other. If you say "No, I think the wheels are really made out of peppermint patties", then we've got a discussion going. And asking me for my source ranks right up there with be the grammer police. (Yes- I know).
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Well said. However, I realize this is not academia or a research forum. Nevertheless, I think it is entirely appropriate to ask the poster for a source for his assertion that the locomotive is a dragon: actual published source or just his opinion. Such is not a personal attack and should not be construed as such in the marketplace of ideas.
As Lizzy said: If the boys wanna fight you better let 'em.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
charlie hebdo Well said. However, I realize this is not academia or a research forum. Nevertheless, I think it is entirely appropriate to ask the poster for a source for his assertion that the locomotive is a dragon: actual published source or just his opinion. Such is not a personal attack and should not be construed as such in the marketplace of ideas.
I agree. There are those who seem to love to challenge something that has been written, but are loathe to actually contribute on the topic. As noted, "Source?" does often come across as more of a challenge than a request for more information.
Worse is telling someone they are essentially stupid, but not pointing out the error of their line of thought.
I missed the mentioned thread. Sounds like it got "interesting."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I agree. There are those who seem to love to challenge something that has been written, but are loathe to actually contribute on the topic. As noted, "Source?" does often come across as more of a challenge than a request for more information. Worse is telling someone they are essentially stupid, but not pointing out the error of their line of thought. I missed the mentioned thread. Sounds like it got "interesting."
All things considered - the heat of that thread was to the level of a pilot light on a gas water heater. Yes, there was flame - but not much.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It was my impression that the thread was heading for "Jane, you ignorant sl**" territory. If we can keep that sentiment in our heads and speak to a poster's idea or opinion politely we'll be OK. And maybe we won't need a thread like this one.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
Murphy Siding charlie hebdo Well said. However, I realize this is not academia or a research forum. Nevertheless, I think it is entirely appropriate to ask the poster for a source for his assertion that the locomotive is a dragon: actual published source or just his opinion. Such is not a personal attack and should not be construed as such in the marketplace of ideas. Again, it's all in how it's presented. "Sources?" usually comes off about as polite as "Oh yeah? Says who?". A more informal approach that would encourage discussion over arguement would be something like "Where are you seeing that? Most articles I've read in Dragon Owner's Digest magazine say that steam engines are really dragons". I worked with a guy how had way of suggesting that something was BS: "Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true...". That got the point accross in a nice way without any fightin' words.
Again, it's all in how it's presented. "Sources?" usually comes off about as polite as "Oh yeah? Says who?". A more informal approach that would encourage discussion over arguement would be something like "Where are you seeing that? Most articles I've read in Dragon Owner's Digest magazine say that steam engines are really dragons". I worked with a guy how had way of suggesting that something was BS: "Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true...". That got the point accross in a nice way without any fightin' words.
Exactly.. its the presentation.. it's the difference betweeen getting fired and getting promoted.. staying married or getting divorced..
D.Carleton As Lizzy said: If the boys wanna fight you better let 'em.
One of the Chinese inscriptions on the Boone & Scenic Valley's steam engine (Last one built at the Datong works.) translated reads something like, "The engine is like a dragon that bounds through the valley."
So maybe steam engines really are dragons.
Jeff
charlie hebdo Have we all become so thin-skinned that no criticism is allowed? As the Dodo says in "Alice in Wonderland" -- EVERYBODY has won, and all must have prizes.'
I think it's fine to disagree, say "I don't see it that way. This is my opinion." Or "what I've read runs counter to that."
But what I'm against is even the slightest hint of insult to the other poster. It's not necessary to characterize the individual in any way. All one needs to do is state one's own view and leave it at that. One's personal opinion of someone else has no place here. For example, there are people here whose politics run very different than my own. So I might have some vague impression/opinion of those folks regarding that one aspect. But that doesn't mean we can't talk trains without insulting each other.
I just don't want the snark, the mud-slinging, and the insults to the intelligence, experience, education or knowledge-base of others.
Put another way: Sometime you just know you're right. (For this example let's assume your are actually objectively correct.) And you know the other guy is wrong. All you have to do is state what you know is right, and back it up if you can. But you do not need to point out in any personal way that the other fellow is wrong.
Honestly, there are folks on here that tend to rub me the wrong way sometimes. But I try really hard not to say anything personal in my responses. Or I just don't respond at all. Once you get personal, things tend to ratchet up. Have I broken this rule myself on occasion in the past? Yes, I admit it. And I was wrong to do so.
Buy a punching bag and mount it in your garage; vent your aggression there rather than in this forum.
May I quote the now much-malinged General Robert E. Lee?
When asked for a rulebook when he was president of Washington College he replied:
"We only have one rule here, that every student be a gentleman."
Pretty good words to live by, don't you think?
Well said.
From a post on FB: "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." Proverbs.
The problem comes with who decides what's righteous and what's wicked...
Why am I reminded of the expression:
Every body is crazy but me and Thee and sometimes I wonder about Thee.
Backshop D.Carleton As Lizzy said: If the boys wanna fight you better let 'em. I heard she had anorexia.
I heard she had anorexia.
Lithonia OperatorBuy a punching bag and mount it in your garage; vent your aggression there rather than in this forum.
That's pretty a pretty passive aggressive remark.
As Harry S Truman said, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.". Pretty decent guy who didn't mince words for fear of offending thin-skinned folks.
The ground rules should be spelled out better in the Forum stickies but should be in my personal view:
1. Don't repeatedly challenge people for links to sources or evidence. Nothing wrong with asking how they formed a conclusion or how they reached an opinion. Constantly asking for a source in an informal opinion forum is rather disruptive if you ask me.
2. Presume that posted comments are opinions unless someone claims to be an expert (only one poster has done that since I have been a member here and I have to say I severly doubted his expert status based on items he posted, he no longer posts here or was suspended.......which I think the Mods stepped in there because he kept clobbering others over the head with his self proclaimed "expert" status which a real expert would never feel the need to do). Moral of the story is nobody should claim to be an expert on anything we all should still be learning about life and various aspects of our various crafts. If someone claims to have some knowledge in an area you should not jump to the larger claim that they are claiming to be an expert.......I think that is obnoxious.
3. Don't try to certify posters as "Expert" or "Non Expert" publicly. One of the dumber items to do on the Internet. Nothing wrong with saying "That is not how we did things on the railroad I worked on...." or "My experience has been that items usually work this way......". Or even if you have no experience to say "That does not make any sense to me because....... am I missing something?"
4. Don't correct others punctuation, grammer, or spelling in an informal discussion forum repeatedly. It never is topical and is a disruption to the conversation flow. Exception being if the persons posts are so atrociously written you cannot understand what is being said.
5. Just because you do not know a topic well does not mean the person your having a discussion with is "making things up". Use Google or your personal contacts and make sure you paraphrase what is being stated correctly in your search for the truth.
6. As consumer of information here, it's everyones job to search for the truth by asking questions politely of the poster or using the Internet or other means in an attempt to understand a position. I think it is very rude to ask someone to link to a source or provide it when a 5 min Google will give you the whole argument in a nutshell and all sides to an argument. It is much more diplomatic to say you believe in another side to an arguement being presented than to accuse the other person of making something up or not being factual. Many times there is some truth to two sides of an argument.
7. Please do not parrot an obviously partisan news source. While there are some here that will accept anything in print others like to have something better researched if your going to provide evidence provide evidence that can be viewed as objective and neutral with no underlying agenda.
8. Don't put words in other peoples mouths or incorrectly repeat what they stated read carefully their comments for comprehension and don't change them in your head to be comments you think they should say so you can argue. Be honest here in representing what a poster posted.
Flintlock76"We only have one rule here, that every student be a gentleman." Pretty good words to live by, don't you think?
Good advice but it is also the internet.
Rules to argue by:
a. If you resort to the ad hominem, you're signifying that your outta useful ammo, so you've already lost. A gentleman or lady would know to cease and desist beyond that point;
2. If you must disagree, don't be disagreeable about it; and
3. For the intractable and unconvinced, disengage. Life's much too short to tilt at windmills. They may crow that you've gone silent, and indeed you have. Let them crow. If you were at all convincing, and used veridical information, the sharper minds looking on will know. That should suffice.
charlie hebdo Lithonia Operator Buy a punching bag and mount it in your garage; vent your aggression there rather than in this forum. That's pretty a pretty passive aggressive remark. As Harry S Truman said, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.". Pretty decent guy who didn't mince words for fear of offending thin-skinned folks.
Lithonia Operator Buy a punching bag and mount it in your garage; vent your aggression there rather than in this forum.
Well, you more than matched me. Congratulations.
I can stand the heat. I just don't like it.
And I'm done with this thread.
Perhaps you should look up the meaning passive aggressive before parroting it.
Lithonia Operator charlie hebdo Lithonia Operator Buy a punching bag and mount it in your garage; vent your aggression there rather than in this forum. That's pretty a pretty passive aggressive remark. As Harry S Truman said, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.". Pretty decent guy who didn't mince words for fear of offending thin-skinned folks. Well, you more than matched me. Congratulations. I can stand the heat. I just don't like it. And I'm done with this thread.
Yes and again you have to ask......whose kitchen is it? And are you not a guest just like the person asking you to leave if you do not like his behavior?
I'm just saying these forums are more interesting as market places of ideas and opinions, preferably backed by some sources if stated as facts. But some whine and only want discussions of paint colors or kumbaya celebrations. IMO, the reason many have left and there appear to be fewer responses is that plus rather heavy-handed moderation that lately doesn't even bother to follow the forum rules, instead called some of us jerks.
Why yes, the McGinnis paint scheme on the New Haven railroad always did appear orange to me, despite the insistence of some that the color was red.
I guess that just goes to prove that anyone determined to "see red" is going to find what they are looking for. Human nature, actually.
I look on here on Monday @ 10:35 am and last post on General Forum was 10 hours ago. An example of how boring most threads are.
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