OvermodIn my opinion, it never made sense to divorce electric utilities from 'subsidizing' interurbans or traction simply to pander to the perception that rates could be made lower. Electric power was then thoroughly regulated, and it would have been easy, and just as popular at the ballot box, to require utilities to subsidize the interurban costs out of their own reserves and profits, rather than to do as 'was done' and leave the electric railroads and transit systems to sink on their own without subsidy into the hands of NCL and others of that ilk.
Yes, utilities were well regulated, and that's why the regulators caused the utilities to divest their subsidized traction operations, as the ratepayers are their statutory concern. Any reserves those utilities had would have been quickly depleted, as most trolley systems were nearing their lifespan, and would need massive rebuilding. And it's unimaginable that there would have been a popular vote to subsidize the trolleys at the expense of those voters electric bills.
Backshop What so many refuse to consider (while they drive around in their car) was that once people got a taste of the freedom of having your own transportation, the days of the interurban/streetcar were over. You can leave when you want to, stay as long as you want, and return home when you want.
What so many refuse to consider (while they drive around in their car) was that once people got a taste of the freedom of having your own transportation, the days of the interurban/streetcar were over. You can leave when you want to, stay as long as you want, and return home when you want.
Perhaps another factor was that many such systems were hub and spoke. If you lived in the 'burbs and worked "downtown" that was fine. But if you lived in one suburb and wanted to work in another, you had to go to a hub first and change cars to reach your destination. The automobile changed that, as well.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Keep in mind that the money that the utilities would have needed to subsidize their interurban and transit subsidiaries had to come from somewhere and most likely from higher electric rates. I would suspect that the parent utilities would have eventually spun off the interurbans and transit companies anyway since they were a drag on earnings.
Erik_MagMaury Klein in The Power Makers blame Samuel Insull's brother for much of the problem
Unremarked, but implicit, in Klein is where the growth of Insull's companies would have been directed, specifically including the massive development of hydropower 'and all that that implies' before TVA smoothly stepped into the empty shoes, and the practical extension of rural electrification without need for a growingly imperial Presidency.
In my opinion, it never made sense to divorce electric utilities from 'subsidizing' interurbans or traction simply to pander to the perception that rates could be made lower. Electric power was then thoroughly regulated, and it would have been easy, and just as popular at the ballot box, to require utilities to subsidize the interurban costs out of their own reserves and profits, rather than to do as 'was done' and leave the electric railroads and transit systems to sink on their own without subsidy into the hands of NCL and others of that ilk.
OM wrote a year ago: At least one historian specializing in the development of electric power attributes Insull's problems to New York bankers, not 'the government' per se.
OM wrote a year ago:
At least one historian specializing in the development of electric power attributes Insull's problems to New York bankers, not 'the government' per se.
Maury Klein in The Power Makers blame Samuel Insulls brother for much of the problem, ad also seemed to think that the criminal charges against Insull were a gross over reaction. Klein stated that Samuel Insull had done a good job of retiring debt of the various comanies before turning control over to his brother. His brother then proceeded to load up debt (maybe under the influence of the "New York bankers"), which became a problem when the country went into te great depression. This reminds me a lot of what Hilton said about debt financing of the interurbans in that some may have survived longer had they done more equity financing.
This also brings back memories of TCIF trying to take over CSX and pressuring management to take on debt to finance stock buy backs.
Duly noted! Possibly one of three events next summer - a reunion in June, antique fire trucks in July, or "Milford Memories" in August.
tree68 Backshop Do you live in the middle of a "core" city? I grew up, lived and worked in the core of Detroit for 30+ years. That's why I live in Livonia. If one looks at aerial/satellite photos of the Detroit area, one will note significant areas of open land - where there used to be houses. The house where my father grew up (on Bewick - pronounced like the car) is gone. Most of the former farmland in western Oakland County is now populated with McMansions.
Backshop Do you live in the middle of a "core" city? I grew up, lived and worked in the core of Detroit for 30+ years. That's why I live in Livonia.
If one looks at aerial/satellite photos of the Detroit area, one will note significant areas of open land - where there used to be houses.
The house where my father grew up (on Bewick - pronounced like the car) is gone.
Most of the former farmland in western Oakland County is now populated with McMansions.
BackshopDo you live in the middle of a "core" city? I grew up, lived and worked in the core of Detroit for 30+ years. That's why I live in Livonia.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/california-long-ruled-u-s-shipping-importers-are-drifting-east-11670648425?mod=hp_lead_pos7
"Gene Seroka, executive director of the Port of Los Angeles, said he lost about 21% of cargo volumes from August through November and he expects that about 5% of cargo could be lost for good."
An "expensive model collector"
At least one historian specializing in the development of electric power attributes Insull's problems to New York bankers, not 'the government' per se. As such, it was far worse a 'conspiracy' than anything NCL did with the now-dissociated traction systems.
I see clear similarities between this and Morgan's wrecking the Reading Combine (and in the process initiating the ruin of much of the national economy for at least a half-decade).
A notable thing about Insull was that his companies promoted the synergistic uses of electrification, including in areas where he made little of the overall direct profit (as in broadcast radio). It would be interesting to have seen where things like power development in the Tennessee Valley and elsewhere, or rural electrification, might have proceeded under Insull instead of becoming Roosevelt 'programs'...
Unfortunately I suspect that, tie-ins or no, the interurbans were largely on their way out by the '30s as anything that would be profitably patronized... let alone periodically recapitalized or expanded. In any case most of them would not have outlasted general steam-road passenger service, whether converted to self-propelled cars/railbuses or not.
And Bell Telephone had a monopoly. Again, San Insull's "empire" was attacked by Federal Ant-Trust foir the same rason that GM's Transit Empire should have been but was not.
Sam's Electrical Companies did not gauge their customers, and his interurban and streetcar compniues gave good sevice, better service than soime hard-seat municipal operations.
Murphy SidingWell, now I'm trying to think of any conspiracies that were true.
The folks trying to prove the world wasn't flat, and that the sun did not orbit the earth had a fairly uphill struggle. And there was a conspiracy to seize the whitehouse from FDR (the Smedley Butler affair).
And ultimately, wasn't GM's "rubber tire" conspiracy against the street car found to be real, but that the outcome, as happened, was inevitable regardless? I thought that was where the story ultimately ended up.
Speaking of streetcars, wasn't there some big deal about relationships between regulated public service companies and private, for-profit parent organizations? Samuel Insull seems to ring a bell. Not sure that it was ever prosecuted as a conspiracy, but it's pretty hard to imagine someone being able to set up what he did, without one. Of course he likely saw it more along the lines of "synergy" than conspiracy.
Murphy SidingI don't even know what you mean by that.
Well, in a thread titled "Midwest Containers via Florida", I felt it was prudent to assume that the "special order nightmares" you were bemoaning would have to be imports.
Convicted One n012944 lived for awhile in a 1940's Chicago bungalow. You could almost touch both houses when walking in-between them. That was more space than the people that were living in two or three flats had. My current "poor land use" suburban home, or the last three that I have owned, have never had a neighbor that close. Well, I guess there need be room in the world for claustrophobes, as well. But that doesn't explain the high density condos going up in the golden perimeter.
n012944 lived for awhile in a 1940's Chicago bungalow. You could almost touch both houses when walking in-between them. That was more space than the people that were living in two or three flats had. My current "poor land use" suburban home, or the last three that I have owned, have never had a neighbor that close.
Well, I guess there need be room in the world for claustrophobes, as well. But that doesn't explain the high density condos going up in the golden perimeter.
I live in the 5th fastest growing county in the USA from 2010-2020. Very little non single family housing going in. Lots of golf cart friendly subdivisions, with decent sized lots. All while the downtown city core in the next county north struggles to get people to move into it. Condos sitting unfinished for 15 years on the river, lots of empty lots. Guess we are all a bunch of "claustrophobes".
Convicted One Backshop Do you live in the middle of a "core" city? I grew up, lived and worked in the core of Detroit for 30+ years. That's why I live in Livonia. I guess the farmers crowded you out of the city? lol. That's a novel solution, I enjoy the commercials when watching Tigers games. Where I live now, is where I grew up in the 1960s. And it has gone from Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood, to something along the lines of Archie Bunker's place, with maybe a little Drew Carey thrown in. I proudly enjoy being a "holdout" although it does get me taunts from insensitive minorities from time to time. Our greater metro area is not large enough or blighted enough to qualify for comprehensive federal intervention, so our taxpayers are given the opportunity to pay for removal of low-demand housing. Being an avid bike rider, I see quite a bit of that, close up.
I guess the farmers crowded you out of the city? lol. That's a novel solution, I enjoy the commercials when watching Tigers games.
Where I live now, is where I grew up in the 1960s. And it has gone from Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood, to something along the lines of Archie Bunker's place, with maybe a little Drew Carey thrown in. I proudly enjoy being a "holdout" although it does get me taunts from insensitive minorities from time to time.
Our greater metro area is not large enough or blighted enough to qualify for comprehensive federal intervention, so our taxpayers are given the opportunity to pay for removal of low-demand housing. Being an avid bike rider, I see quite a bit of that, close up.
Convicted One Murphy Siding Yep. Off-shoring Well, knowing what a stickler you are for keeping discussions on topic, I just assumed you'd be maintaining thread parameters.
Murphy Siding Yep. Off-shoring
Well, knowing what a stickler you are for keeping discussions on topic, I just assumed you'd be maintaining thread parameters.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Convicted One Oh? And just where do the Atlanta Braves play baseball these days? Sorry, I just couldn't resist...
Oh? And just where do the Atlanta Braves play baseball these days?
Sorry, I just couldn't resist...
True true ... Much closer to me :)
But a University has moved ito the old space so I guess that is a plus!
Not sure if it was flight or just the massive migration to the south, but either way there is a major lack of rail. Not sure if I agree with turning the beltline into a trail, seemed like a good ROW for a train :)
Murphy SidingYep. Off-shoring
Convicted One Murphy Siding . Special order goods on the other hand, are a nightmare for everyone involved. I don't believe that those buzzards coming home to roost as a consequence of off-shoring, should have been unforeseeable by anybody?
Murphy Siding . Special order goods on the other hand, are a nightmare for everyone involved.
I don't believe that those buzzards coming home to roost as a consequence of off-shoring, should have been unforeseeable by anybody?
Convicted One Murphy Siding How so? If there is a 6 month wait for fiberfab, thin veneered import garbage, maybe that will motivate people to renovate and reinhabit existing properties composed of traditional solid materials, instead of continuing to gobble up outlying wilderness for new additions?. Relax, you can still sell them paints, countertops and shingles, the urgency (I need it all now) just wont be as acute.
Murphy Siding How so?
If there is a 6 month wait for fiberfab, thin veneered import garbage, maybe that will motivate people to renovate and reinhabit existing properties composed of traditional solid materials, instead of continuing to gobble up outlying wilderness for new additions?.
Relax, you can still sell them paints, countertops and shingles, the urgency (I need it all now) just wont be as acute.
Convicted One n012944 Damn those people for not wanting to live on top of each other. The lots out in the newer additions are really not what I'd call spacious?
n012944 Damn those people for not wanting to live on top of each other.
The lots out in the newer additions are really not what I'd call spacious?
You should get out more. I lived for awhile in a 1940's Chicago bungalow. You could almost touch both houses when walking in-between them. That was more space than the people that were living in two or three flats had. My current "poor land use" suburban home, or the last three that I have owned, have never had a neighbor that close.
n012944Damn those people for not wanting to live on top of each other.
Convicted One Euclid What do you mean by "sustainability standpoint." Abandoning servicable homes in the city core in pursuit of an ever growing ring of suburban sprawl, is a waste of land and resources.
Euclid What do you mean by "sustainability standpoint."
Abandoning servicable homes in the city core in pursuit of an ever growing ring of suburban sprawl, is a waste of land and resources.
Damn those people for not wanting to live on top of each other.
rdamon I believe the non-Starbucks coffee shop density has increased greatly in areas around downtown Atlanta.
Atlanta has done some things to revitalize the core, that are impressive. But at the same time, I hardly recognize my old stomping grounds in Vinings, when perusing Google Sat. You guys have also had quite a bit of flight to the I-575 corridor, which I don't think was even built when I last lived there.
Here we have entire inner city blocks, block after block, where all homes except 2 or 3 have been torn down, leaving the city to pay for lot maintenance. The taxpayers are paying to tear the old homes down, to prevent oversupply from bringing down property values, but they would be better off instead with more restrictive zoning requirements out on the perimeter, targeted towards encouraging people to think inwards instead of ever-outwards. But of course the well funded housing developers would not appreciate that, so we are stuck with this fool's compromise described above.
Things must be different where you live. I believe the non-Starbucks coffee shop density has increased greatly in areas around downtown Atlanta.
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