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Nasty wreck

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, September 16, 2021 8:54 PM

blue streak 1

I would expect that a lot of delayed in block trains would be oversized loads.  Observed one the other day doing just about 5 MPH with a 32 axel load.  Also could MOW equipment also be delayed in block ?

 

No.  MOW equipment isn't governed by signal indications.  

Delayed in the Block happens when the speed drops below 10 mph.  The GCOR rule number is 9.9, which is any easy way to remember it.  If your speed drops to 9.9, you're delayed in the block.

If you are in continuous cab signal territory, you're never delayed in the block, even if you stop.  The cab signal indicates the condition of the block you are in.

Jeff 

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Posted by dpeltier on Thursday, September 16, 2021 9:13 PM

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I would expect that a lot of delayed in block trains would be oversized loads.  Observed one the other day doing just about 5 MPH with a 32 axel load.  Also could MOW equipment also be delayed in block ?

Sometimes MOW equipment moves as a train, using signal indications or "proceed from" track warrants. An example would be things like the Herzog MPM, which in travel mode can move at normal train speeds. But your typical on-track equipment gets special verbal authorities in CTC territory and interlockings, and "work between" warrants in track warranty territory. It must always be prepared to stop in half the range of vision, and must approach every road crossing prepared to yield to road traffic. These movements are made without any regard to the wayside signals, so DIB is not an issue. Aso: the signal system doesn't protect work equipment. Even in CTC a single dispatcher error CAN lead to a train v. MOW collision all by itself.

And to oversimplify things a bit: just like certain kinds of work equipment sometimes move as trains, work trains sometimes move as if they were work equipment.

Dan

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 16, 2021 10:34 PM

blue streak 1
I would expect that a lot of delayed in block trains would be oversized loads.  Observed one the other day doing just about 5 MPH with a 32 axel load.  Also could MOW equipment also be delayed in block ?

DIB was raised to a issue in the MARC vs. Capitol Limited collision at control point Georgetown Jct near Silver Spring, MD on February 16, 1996.

In the preceeding months CSX had performed a signal respacing project along the Metropolitan Sub to improve safety with the size freight trains that were being operated on the territory.  A Eastbound MARC commuter train after accepting a 'Approach' signal indication made a station stop to pick up/discharge passengers.  The engineer on the MARC train (that was being operated in push mode) left the station stop as if he had a Clear signal upon entering the station.  The MARC train accelerated toward track speed and came around the curve at Georgetown Jct. to see Amtrak P029 crossing over from #2 track to #1 track ahead and the Absolute signal for the control point displaying STOP.  8 dead on the MARC train.

Afterwards, the FRA came out with enhanced Delay In Block regulations that included passenger trains making scheduled station stops.

MofW Equipment operates on track authorities - they DO NOT operate on signal indication.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, September 16, 2021 11:31 PM

VIA had a similar crash in 2012.  As the entire head end crew was killed and the locomotive was not equipped with any cameras there is no absolute proof of what actually went on in the cab and what signals the crew saw (or thought they saw), but the most likely explanation based on available evidence is that they forgot what signal indication they came in on before making a station stop, and thought they would be routed down a straight main track (like normal) instead of through a 15 mph turnout.  

http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2012/r12t0038/r12t0038.html

As it turned out this incident eventually led to inward-facing cameras and cab voice recorders becoming legal in Canada, with the railway companies having access to the footage and recordings.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, September 17, 2021 7:22 AM

BaltACD
Afterwards, the FRA came out with enhanced Delay In Block regulations that included passenger trains making scheduled station stops.

When I'm listening in Utica I regularly hear Amtrak engineers announce "[train] departing Utica, in on a [name your aspect].

LarryWhistling
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Posted by zugmann on Friday, September 17, 2021 8:41 AM

BaltACD
MofW Equipment operates on track authorities - they DO NOT operate on signal indication.

NORAC exception being interlocking rules.  But they still have to report clear of the interlocking. 

   The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, September 17, 2021 9:44 PM

BaltACD
blue streak 1
I would expect that a lot of delayed in block trains would be oversized loads.  Observed one the other day doing just about 5 MPH with a 32 axel load.  Also could MOW equipment also be delayed in block ?

 

DIB was raised to a issue in the MARC vs. Capitol Limited collision at control point Georgetown Jct near Silver Spring, MD on February 16, 1996.

In the preceeding months CSX had performed a signal respacing project along the Metropolitan Sub to improve safety with the size freight trains that were being operated on the territory.  A Eastbound MARC commuter train after accepting a 'Approach' signal indication made a station stop to pick up/discharge passengers.  The engineer on the MARC train (that was being operated in push mode) left the station stop as if he had a Clear signal upon entering the station.  The MARC train accelerated toward track speed and came around the curve at Georgetown Jct. to see Amtrak P029 crossing over from #2 track to #1 track ahead and the Absolute signal for the control point displaying STOP.  8 dead on the MARC train.

Afterwards, the FRA came out with enhanced Delay In Block regulations that included passenger trains making scheduled station stops.

MofW Equipment operates on track authorities - they DO NOT operate on signal indication.

 

 
Didn't the FRA after this accident require any passenger train leaving a station to operate at restricted speeds until next signal is passed and operate at that signal's aspect ?  Or is it until next signal observed ?
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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 17, 2021 9:48 PM

blue streak 1
Didn't the FRA after this accident require any passenger train leaving a station to operate at restricted speeds until next signal is passed and operate at that's aspect ?  Or is it until next signal observed ?

That is what the Delayed In Block is all about.  Leave scheduled station stop at a speed that will permit stopping at next signal - until such signal is observed and is displaying a indication other than STOP.

In SOME station locations, signals are being placed right where the engine would be after the train makes its scheduled stop - the NEXT signal is in immediate view.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Friday, September 17, 2021 10:14 PM

From http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2012/r12t0038/r12t0038.html

Telling statistic.

Since 2002, a signal indication was misidentified, misinterpreted or not immediately recognized on average of 11 times a year.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, September 18, 2021 8:59 PM

And was anything done to correct answer obvious problem? 

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Posted by mvlandsw on Monday, September 20, 2021 8:41 PM

CSX created a problem when they installed their new signals. The restricting indication is given with a lunar white light. Under the right lighting or atmospheric conditions the lunar white can look very similiar to the green color lense that indicates clear.

Then to make the situation worse they dislay the lunar white at any position on multi-head signals.

Although it wouldn't completely solve the problem, if they would require the lunar white to be on the bottom head of a signal at least it could only be mistaken for a lower speed indication.

I know of two rear end collisons that were caused by confusing the lunar white for a green; one in Williard and one in Cumberland.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, September 20, 2021 9:30 PM

mvlandsw
CSX created a problem when they installed their new signals. The restricting indication is given with a lunar white light. Under the right lighting or atmospheric conditions the lunar white can look very similiar to the green color lense that indicates clear.

Then to make the situation worse they dislay the lunar white at any position on multi-head signals.

Although it wouldn't completely solve the problem, if they would require the lunar white to be on the bottom head of a signal at least it could only be mistaken for a lower speed indication.

I know of two rear end collisons that were caused by confusing the lunar white for a green; one in Williard and one in Cumberland.

Moving away from B&O's CPL's makes it much easier for a signal indication to be misread.  Color Light is no substiture for Color Position Light.

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