EuclidWhat I want to know is whether typing train orders in all caps meant that they were yelling at the crew.
The convention of all caps being perceived as 'shouting' in the current Internet sense wouldn't apply to train orders. I suspect that orders received by any early Teletype system (which only rendered capital letters) would be perceived only as 'mechanically clear' as opposed to our modern view, and it seems to me that reading orders in 'all caps' is clearer, especially in low cab light at night, than resolving mixed upper and lower case; it might be easier too to read the 'lowest' of multiple copies where the print might be considerably muddied in fine detail.
I would defer, of course, to actual operators given different instructions on how to type up orders.
It is possible that the European convention of expressing emphasis -- which is increased space between letters and words -- might be applied to text in all caps to signify particular importance. It would certainly be less ambiguous.
Lithonia Operator In any event, I have no recollection whatsoever of doing anything to let trains know I had orders for them. So this remains a mystery to me.
In any event, I have no recollection whatsoever of doing anything to let trains know I had orders for them. So this remains a mystery to me.
Some stations might always have 19Y orders to be delivered, so the order board would rarely have to be changed if the line had ABS signals.
A couple of fine points: If there were orders on hand, but none applied to that train, the board would still stay yellow and the operator would deliver a clearance with the word "nil" in the space to list the order numbers. In dark territory the order board would drop to red for 20 minutes (or whatever other time interval the local rule book specified).
John
Euclid: I have always understood there to be no distinction in meaning between a board and a signal. In railroading, there are at lest ten names for everything. Look at all the names for a caboose. On the Milwaukee, they used to call it a caboose. What I want to know is whether typing train orders in all caps meant that they were yelling at the crew.
I also thought that applied to "yellow board" and "green board," although there are probably many fewer cases of railroaders referring to them, as opposed to red signals
Lithonia OperatorI guess I have been operating under a misunderstanding for decades. I alwas thought that if an engineer says, "We caught a red board in Podunkville," that simply means he encountered a red signal, and had to stop. Any red signal; Block signal light, block signal semaphore, CTC, interlocking, whatever. Apparently I have been wrong for a very long time.
Apparently I have been wrong for a very long time.
Signals take many forms on the railroad. The Color Light, Position Light and Color Position Light wayside signals that we all commonly call signals. There are many other signals that we don't normally associate as being signals - these are the various forms of fixed signals - whistle posts, block signs, delay in block signs and a host of other items are 'fixed signals' by railroad defination. Train Order 'boards' fit that defination under the applicable B&O Rule Books. Since the Timetable and Train Order method of operation is no longer used at CSX (and all other Class 1's to my knowledge) there are no longer references to it in current rule books.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I have always understood there to be no distinction in meaning between a board and a signal. In railroading, there are at lest ten names for everything. Look at all the names for a caboose. On the Milwaukee, they used to call it a caboose. What I want to know is whether typing train orders in all caps meant that they were yelling at the crew.
I guess I have been operating under a misunderstanding for decades. I alwas thought that if an engineer says, "We caught a red board in Podunkville," that simply means he encountered a red signal, and had to stop. Any red signal; Block signal light, block signal semaphore, CTC, interlocking, whatever.
Lithonia OperatorBalt, what is the difference between a "board" and a signal?
I'm not Balt, but I'd opine that "board" may have become a common term for any sort of signal device used for conveying the need for crews to pick up a train order at a station.
I could be wrong.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Lithonia OperatorI'm still confused. I've always thought that "board" was RR slang for any type of train-control signal, be it red, yellow or green; be it a semaphore (either quadrant), searchlight, position light, what have you. For block signals, CTC, interlocking. Basically I thought board = signal. Period. Not true? Balt, what is the difference between a "board" and a signal?
Balt, what is the difference between a "board" and a signal?
On the B&O this TO Board Is mounted to the station - midway up the signal. In this instance it shows white which is No Orders. The Operator would hang a Yellow 'board' to indicate there are orders to be picked up on the fly, or a Red 'board' to indicate orders that that the train must stop to receive. I suspect different carriers may have had somewhat different rules and I have no idea what rules applied to the Georgia RR at the time you were employed.
I'm still confused. I've always thought that "board" was RR slang for any type of train-control signal, be it red, yellow or green; be it a semaphore (either quadrant), searchlight, position light, what have you. For block signals, CTC, interlocking. Basically I thought board = signal. Period. Not true?
Lithonia OperatorI thought Train Order Board and Train Order Signal were synonymous. No? I mean the signal. As in "red board."
I mean the signal. As in "red board."
The stations I worked on the B&O had both. The operation of the semaphore acted with the ABS system to drop the signals in advance of the station to Approach. The Order Board, displaying a Yellow or Red Board would then tell the train to either continue and receive the hooped up orders or to STOP at the station in the case of the Red Board.
I don't recall having to issue a 31 order which required the Red Board during my time on the Single Track St. Louis Division. My times on the multiple track Pittsburgh and Akron-Chicago Divisions, the Red Board was used when orders were issued for 'wrong track' running against the current of traffic to your station. The Red Board and order - if delivered - would not permit a train to run with the current of traffic on the track specified in the order. Normally trains were held at the interlocking sigal until the train(s) running against the current of traffic had fulifilled the requirements of the order and the order was annulled by the Train Dispatcher.
I thought Train Order Board and Train Order Signal were synonymous. No?
Lithonia OperatorI'll see if I can determine when the Lithonia depot was torn down. In that pic, there IS an order board ...
Can't discern a Train Order board from the picture, however, there certainly appears to be a Train Order Signal adjacent to the Operator's Bay Window.
Balt, that photo of the Lithonia depot really fascinates me, and this why:
It's been around 45 years since I was the operator at Lithonia. (And I've only been back once, about seven years ago.) Most of my memories of my time working there are very vague, but what makes it worse is this: around 30 years ago I got heavily into writing fictional short stories. I changed the name of Lithonia to Novak, and set a railroad story there, which was pretty darn autobiographical of my time there.
What I think happened is this: since, IIRC, the Lithonia station was totally charmless, I instead had my "Novak" operator work in a sizeable, now fading, former classic passenger-and-freight depot, full of character. I described it in some detail.
Over the years, my memories blended, and got so I couldn't remember what was real Lithonia, and what was the fictional Novak.
Then seven years ago I swung by there, and found only the dinky concrete block building. So, I concluded that the classic depot existed only in my fictional story.
BUT, now you post that pic, and the depot looks almost identical to the one in my mind!!!! So I'm not sure what is true. Maybe I DID actually work in the depot in your photo! The pic says 1965; I was there in '73 or '74, which is not that much later. Now I can't wait to find that photo, if it still exists, because it was taken while I worked there.
Photgraphy was an all-consuming passion for me, yet I took very few pix on the GARR. The management was rabidly hostile towards photo-taking, or any other signs of the dreaded railfandom disease. The morale totally sucked, and anyone showing an interest in trains was deemed suspect.
I'll see if I can determine when the Lithonia depot was torn down. In that pic, there IS an order board ...
I have vivid of "memories" of working in a depot like that. But when you write fiction you spend hours and hours in your mind envisioning the scene. (The story is written in first-person.)
I'm still guessing that that depot was long gone when I got there. But now I am far from sure! Interesting.
Thanks for linking that pic!
[quote user="tree68"]
The station at Rantoul, IL (IC/ICG while I was in the area) had a device (probably two) for delivering train orders that had two such "forks" on swivels.
The operator prepared the paper and string, then hung same on the device, one on each of the forks. The forks were then swung up where they latched, the latch held by the tension of the strings on the forks.
Once the crew hooked the appropriate order, the fork then swung down, out of the way. Saw it done a number of times.
At the time, IC there was two track with directional running. Crossing over to run on the "wrong" main required a train order.
Somewhere I have a picture, but I have no idea where... I don't find one on-line, either.
The tower in Jacksonville, IL also had the swivel forks for the Wabash track in the very early 60's. The operator used the hand held wood forks for the "Q" (Burlington) track crossing the Wabash on its west side. I don't remember the operator ever giving train orders to the once a day (M-S) GM&O local that crossed the Wabash east of the tower. (GM&O's switch yard was located just south of the Wabash crossing and also had the former GM&O passenger station where a still active Railway Express office was housed.) There was a semaphore indicating Wabash orders were to be picked up when I was there. There might also have been an indicator for the Q but I can't picture it now after all these years.
jeffhergertTrain order signals of various types.
Seems like I've seen some that were basically the targets from a switch stand. Low budget, for sure.
Train order signals of various types. From semaphore to color light types. The semaphores would have some kind of lever arrangement that would operate the signal kind of like an interlocking plant. I know of a few that had chains in the office that went to levers toward the ceiling that operated the bell cranks and piping.
Color light signals would have some kind of control box.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRJP9ZO9Jr-C1k006o-FyERr9FUmg:1579572320271&q=train+order+signal&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwic0a-4zZPnAhVSHc0KHQhlANQQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=1920&bih=935
As for the train order stands, not all stations might be equipped with them. I know on the RI across Iowa in the late 1970s, most train order stations in TT&TO territory had them. Some in CTC or current of traffic double track might not, because they didn't handle as many train orders.
Even the stations with the delivery stands still had the regular Y hoop for trains on the siding, or to supplement the stand. I know of one incident when a chain pulled the stand, and caboose copies of the orders out of the ground. The operator went in and grabbed the office copy and a hoop and handed it up to the caboose. I had the priviledge of handing up train orders twice to trains on the siding.
The RI time table special instructions once carried an item that upon seeing a train order signal displaying stop, unless clearance received indication, the engineer was to sound 4 short whistle blasts and reduce speed to 60 mph to pick up orders.
Jeff
Lithonia OperatorMaybe there was a standing order that all eastbound trains took orders at Lithonia. In my memory I see only eastbound trains. Maybe on my shift (3-11) there were never any westbounds. Maybe the day operator always left a signal for eastbounds on, and never felt any need to tell me about it. I think the previous second-trick operator and I overlapped only one day before I was on my own; the GARR was never one to spend extra money. It occurs to me that I might have an old b/w photo of the little "station," a small, homely cinder-block building. When I get back to Maine I'm going to look for that. I have no memory of a signal by the station.
It occurs to me that I might have an old b/w photo of the little "station," a small, homely cinder-block building. When I get back to Maine I'm going to look for that. I have no memory of a signal by the station.
Lithonia, GA station circa 1965
Maybe there was a standing order that all eastbound trains took orders at Lithonia. In my memory I see only eastbound trains. Maybe on my shift (3-11) there were never any westbounds. Maybe the day operator always left a signal for eastbounds on, and never felt any need to tell me about it. I think the previous second-trick operator and I overlapped only one day before I was on my own; the GARR was never one to spend extra money.
NDG ' String Hoop ' Y Fork High Speed Delivery Device. Shorter Device used for delivery to Caboose. http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cnr_diesel/3821.jpg ... With the Y String Device the Telegrapher did NOT have to go look for the hoops in the dark or deep snow. ... The whole saga of Train Order Delivery is a story in itself. Blah, Blah, Blah. Thank You.
Thank You.
The pictured 'hoops' were what were used on the B&O before the 'high speed trainorder transmitters' were installed. All the hoops in the office had the same length of handles.
Is it possible that there simply was NO order board at/near Lithonia? If so, how did crews know to look for flimsies?
I have a hard time believing that I have forgotten that I operated a signal; that would have felt like a big deal to me at the time.
Lithonia OperatorWhen I was an operator at Lithonia GA, on the GARR, I was given orders by the dispatcher in Atlanta, I'd type them up, read them back, then string them up in the hoops. Our "hoops" were really shaped like divining rods, with the rolled-up order tied with string between the prongs of the Y. The Ys were then put in sockets on a post: one high one for the engineer, a low one for the caboose. This was in 1973, I think. Two questions: I just read a true-life tale about an operator, in that same era, handing up orders, using a hoop held in his hand; no post. It was in Iowa in blizzard conditions; the track was on a curve, with the superelevation leaning the train away from the depot, and the train was punching through big snow drifts. And the engineer was a speed-demon with a fast train. The tale is a hair-raising one; the young operator, despite being an experienced third-generation railroader who loved his job, was feeling pretty scared. 1) Why would this location (in Iowa) not have a post, like I did? Seems like "Safety Last." 2) All accounts I've read about operators in those days talk about how the operator would change/illuminate the order-board. Which makes sense. But despite my having a pretty good memory of those days (pretty special ones for me), I have no recollection of an order-board. Moreover, I have no memory of ever having to do anything to set an order-board. Now, maybe there was a button, and I used it, and now I forget. But knowing myself, and how all of it fascinated me, I feel certain that I would remember feeling the weight of the responsibility of making sure the board was lit, and to which direction, if that had been part of my job. But I have zero such memories. Is it possible the the DS was able to remotely light signals to tell the train it needed to pick up orders at Lithonia? If so, maybe those signals were east and west of me, not right at the depot, so I never saw them. My sense would be that in the timetable/train-order days the dispatcher would not have had the ability to do this. ?? Now maybe all trains had standing orders to look for orders at Lithonia. I think almost all eastbound trains took orders there, since I was the first operator after leaving Atlanta; by then the DS had a good idea of how the train was running, since the Atlanta "call time"often did not hold up. But it would seem that westbound trains probably didn't always pick up from me. Any thoughts from old-timers? And Balt, I know that under SCL/CSX you dispatched that line (in later days) and maybe can shed some light. No pun intended.
Two questions:
I just read a true-life tale about an operator, in that same era, handing up orders, using a hoop held in his hand; no post. It was in Iowa in blizzard conditions; the track was on a curve, with the superelevation leaning the train away from the depot, and the train was punching through big snow drifts. And the engineer was a speed-demon with a fast train. The tale is a hair-raising one; the young operator, despite being an experienced third-generation railroader who loved his job, was feeling pretty scared. 1) Why would this location (in Iowa) not have a post, like I did? Seems like "Safety Last."
2) All accounts I've read about operators in those days talk about how the operator would change/illuminate the order-board. Which makes sense. But despite my having a pretty good memory of those days (pretty special ones for me), I have no recollection of an order-board. Moreover, I have no memory of ever having to do anything to set an order-board. Now, maybe there was a button, and I used it, and now I forget. But knowing myself, and how all of it fascinated me, I feel certain that I would remember feeling the weight of the responsibility of making sure the board was lit, and to which direction, if that had been part of my job. But I have zero such memories. Is it possible the the DS was able to remotely light signals to tell the train it needed to pick up orders at Lithonia? If so, maybe those signals were east and west of me, not right at the depot, so I never saw them. My sense would be that in the timetable/train-order days the dispatcher would not have had the ability to do this. ?? Now maybe all trains had standing orders to look for orders at Lithonia. I think almost all eastbound trains took orders there, since I was the first operator after leaving Atlanta; by then the DS had a good idea of how the train was running, since the Atlanta "call time"often did not hold up. But it would seem that westbound trains probably didn't always pick up from me.
Any thoughts from old-timers? And Balt, I know that under SCL/CSX you dispatched that line (in later days) and maybe can shed some light. No pun intended.
When I broke in as a Train Order Operator in 1965 of the B&O St. Louis Division none of the stations or towers had 'high speed trainorder transmitters'. All the locations required the Operator to manually hand up the orders using the Y stick contraption you have mentioned. Handing up to the head end was relatively easy - take your transmitter device, hold it in your arm nearest the rail to station yourself outside the width of the train, hold it up in your arm nearest the rail has stay stationary as the train approached and the engineer (or Fireman) picked up the orders out of the hoop. Once you had handed up to the head end, move away from the train to avoid being struck by any dragging banding or other debris that may be hanging off the side of the train. Standing away you were, in addition to giving a visual inspection of the train, trying to look for the markers on the caboose so you could return to track proximity and hand up to the rear end crew - you used the same 'spot' you had marked out for the head end and then 'choke up' about half way on the hoop device and hold it so the rear end crew could get the orders.
In the B&O way of doing things. The Dispatcher would notify the Operator to copy orders by stating "19 (or 31) West (or East) copy 3 (or a higher number if more than one train was being addressed). The Operators response was to hang the Yellow (or Red for 31's) train order board and Train Order Signal if the location was equipped and respond to the Dispatcher 'Board Displayed'. Once the Dispatcher got the 'Board Displayed' response from all Operators that were being addressed with the orders he would then begin transmitting the order. Upon completion of the transmission, the Operators would repeat the order in turn, with the 'restricting' operator repeating first, upon successful repeating the Dispatcher would respond with 'Complete time and the Dispatchers initials. The operator would write the complete time in the space provided on the order for that purpose as well as write in his own last name in the space provided.
Interlocking Towers only had the Train Order Board, as they had the interlocking signals to 'hold' the train until the Engineer acknowledged the Train Order Board with a horn signal, then the Operator would clear the signal and get in position to hand up.
On the B&O orders were delivered with a accompanying Clearance Form A - the Form A would contain the numbers of all Train Orders that were being delivered and the Operator would get approval from the Dispatcher for the orders being delivered.
For freight tains 3 copies of a order would be prepared - Engineer, Conductor, Office Copy. For passenger trains, 4 copies would be prepared - Engineer, Baggageman, Conductor, Office copy. The same number of Form A's would also be prepared.
The B&O St. Louis Division was a single track railroad, with APB Signaling and operated with Timetable and Train Orders. There were 1st Class, 2nd Class and 3rd Class trains scheduled in the Employee Timetable. Passenger trains operated on the 1st Class schedules. The 2nd & 3rd Class schedules were tools use by the Train Dispatcher to move the through freight trains a the local freights. It was more efficient for the Train Dispatcher to manipulate the timetable schedules via 'run late' and 'wait' orders than to have all the freight trains 'Run Extra'. The 2nd and 3rd class schedules rarely applied to the same train from one day to the next. Schedules remained in effect for 12 hours. If a train was being operated under schedule and it go to a point where it was over 12 hours 'late' it lost its timetable authority and had to be then established as a Extra in order to complete its run.
During my time as a operator, the B&O did undertake a program to install 'high speed trainorder transmitters' at all offices where orders were handed up to moving trains.
In the time Lithonia and the Georga RR was a part of my territory, the entirety of the Georgia RR from Augusta to Atlanta was Dark Territory, with a signal system that was not up to the standards were trains could be issued 'proceed blocks' based on signal inidcations. Trains were issued finite blocks and the Dispatcher had to maintain following block protection. Where meets happened the switches were authorized to be left in the 'last used' position with the Dispatcher keeping track of the switch positions and communicating that to following trains.
When I was an operator at Lithonia GA, on the GARR, I was given orders by the dispatcher in Atlanta, I'd type them up, read them back, then string them up in the hoops. Our "hoops" were really shaped like divining rods, with the rolled-up order tied with string between the prongs of the Y. The Ys were then put in sockets on a post: one high one for the engineer, a low one for the caboose. This was in 1973, I think.
2) All accounts I've read about operators in those days talk about how the operator would change/illuminate the order-board. Which makes sense. But despite my having a pretty good memory of those days (pretty special ones for me), I have no recollection of an order-board. Moreover, I have no memory of ever having to do anything to set an order-board. Now, maybe there was a button, and I used it, and now I forget. But knowing myself, and how all of it fascinated me, I feel certain that I would remember feeling the weight of the responsibility of making sure the board was lit, and to which direction, if that had been part of my job. But I have zero such memories. Is it possible the the DS was able to remotely light signals to tell the train it needed to pick up orders at Lithonia? If so, maybe those signals were east and west of me, not right at the depot, so I never saw them. My sense would be that in the timetable/train-order days the dispatcher would not have had the ability to do this. ?? Now maybe all trains had standing orders to look for orders at Lithonia. I think almost all eastbound trains took orders there, since I was the first operator after leaving Atlanta; by then the DS had a good idea of how the train was running, since the Atlanta "call time" often did not hold up. But it would seem that westbound trains probably didn't always pick up from me.
Still in training.
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