While reading the October TRAINS on p.35 in the section 'petroleum and plastics'. The paragraph starts:"...But there's a wild card:Crime..." [The article makes references to the theft from Pemex's Pipelines to the tune of something like $1.6 B per year.] Then: "... In the first two months of 2018 Pemex found 2,300 illegal 'taps' to its pipelines; by drug cartels, gangs, and crooked employees. One pipline had so much product removed, it ran dry..."
The article also quotes[Hancock] Marketing Manager of KCS "...Moving refined products by rail is a great opportunity for us, because you put a gallon in, you get a gallon out..."
The unanswered question seems to be: With the media reporting thousands killed along the Border, with attributions to the Mexican Cartel Gangs for those death, and the same media using photos of trains running through Mexico, looking like Commuter trains on Indian Railroads with people hanging on and riding the tops of cars.
Is anyone concerned with the Safety of the Railroad employees who must operate those trains in what apprear to be at be, a sketchy environment. Do the railroad(s) provide armed security foir those crews?
Are the employees allowed to be armed?
What happens if a train crew is forced to stop; or 'robbed' at gun point?
If the theives are brazen enough to steel from pipelines, (or road vehicles(?)
What is to stop them from stealing from a stopped( or wrecked train?).
I am aware that in U.S. crews are not 'armed' and have at times been victims of armed robber that boarded their trains, not to mention the cargo thefts that take place. The railroads rely on their RR PDs, and Local LEOs for 'protection'. Mexican operations seem to lack any of those structures(?)
Just some questions that seem not to be answered in the article.
Can't speak for Mexico.
Do the railroad(s) provide armed security foir those crews?
No, other than the normal railroad police.
No, on most railroads carrying a firearm while on duty (other than the RR police) can be a fireable offense,
They get robbed. It gets investigated by the local and railroad police.
If the theives are brazen enough to steel from pipelines, (or road vehicles(?) What is to stop them from stealing from a stopped( or wrecked train?).
Think about what you are talking about. A pipeline is fixed. It never moves. If you tap into a pipeline you can remove product 24x7 forever and its relatively difficult to detect. A train on the other hand isn't very easy. They move. If they stop for any length of time when they aren't supposed to, they normally attract attention. You can't be certain when one will be someplace. You have to tap into multiple cars to steal a lot of stuff. Once you get it out of the car, where are you going to put it? Stealing a 5 gallon bucket of crude oil isn't worth anything, where are you going to put 10,000 gal of oil? Even if you take the oil out of the cars without anybody knowing it, the theft will be discovered in a matter of days when they try to unload the car and find it empty. Stealing it from a "wrecked" train would be even stupider because the area would be flooded with cops, firemen, hazmat responders, railroad personnel, rerailing contractors, news cameras, reporters, yadda, yadda.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
samfp1943If the theives are brazen enough to steel from pipelines, (or road vehicles(?) What is to stop them from stealing from a stopped( or wrecked train?).
Expanding that question beyond petroleum products, stealing from stopped trains is exactly what happens with containers. The thieves cause a train to stop in a remote location (shoot out a brake hose, etc) and quickly empty a container into waiting trucks, before a crewmember can get back to discover the cause of the problem.
It's been suggested that such theives know exactly what they are after, and exactly where to find it.
With enough people, cleaning out a container would take little time. Emptying a 30,000 gallon tank car would take at least three, and probably four tank trucks, and a fair amount of time. Our fire tankers are intended to empty at 1000+ gallons per minute. Railroad tank cars are not.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
dehusman Can't speak for Mexico. Do the railroad(s) provide armed security foir those crews? No, other than the normal railroad police. Are the employees allowed to be armed? No, on most railroads carrying a firearm while on duty (other than the RR police) can be a fireable offense, What happens if a train crew is forced to stop; or 'robbed' at gun point? They get robbed. It gets investigated by the local and railroad police. If the theives are brazen enough to steel from pipelines, (or road vehicles(?) What is to stop them from stealing from a stopped( or wrecked train?). Think about what you are talking about. A pipeline is fixed. It never moves. If you tap into a pipeline you can remove product 24x7 forever and its relatively difficult to detect. A train on the other hand isn't very easy. They move. If they stop for any length of time when they aren't supposed to, they normally attract attention. You can't be certain when one will be someplace. You have to tap into multiple cars to steal a lot of stuff. Once you get it out of the car, where are you going to put it? Stealing a 5 gallon bucket of crude oil isn't worth anything, where are you going to put 10,000 gal of oil? Even if you take the oil out of the cars without anybody knowing it, the theft will be discovered in a matter of days when they try to unload the car and find it empty. Stealing it from a "wrecked" train would be even stupider because the area would be flooded with cops, firemen, hazmat responders, railroad personnel, rerailing contractors, news cameras, reporters, yadda, yadda.
To Dave H [and others]: Apparently, train robbery is getting to be big business in Mexico... A quick 'Search'(Bing) [Mexican Town/Business Railroad theft] on the Internet pulled up several pages, of stories referencing train robers in Mexico. Stuning results, for a country that we are now 'officially(?)' Trading Partners with, and neighbors.
And My question remains: Do the railroads there offer the crews and their workers any protction from the collateral damage' due to robbery?
Apparently,Theft from the Mexican RRs is a problem; growing larger with time?
In the days iof trains being all box cars, theives knew EXACTLY which ones were which...like MLHX and KELX.they knew they would drink and eat good for a month, so they CAN and do outsmart RR Police............happens all the time in the South Bronx near Oak Point.
The solution will be to run hi-rail patrols ahead of trains. Easy Google search seems to indicate a serious problem with train robbery, not so easily dismissed. While robbing pipelines may be an analogy, I doubt that oil will be the top target of robbery when they have trainloads of high grade merchandise. Derailing trains in order to rob them is considered a practical method.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/train-robbers-launch-brazen-wave-of-attacks-south-of-the-border
It looks like train security will become big business in Mexico with the ramp-up of Mexican manufacturing and their criminal culture. This article mentions the spiraling increase in Mexican train robbery. Incidentally, it also describes a technique of wrecking a train as a diversionary tactic to distract authorities while the robbers go rob a pipeline.
https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/train-robberies-soar-476/
https://www.progressiverailroading.com/federal_legislation_regulation/news/Rail-unions-file-petition-against-FRA-over-crew-dispute--55535
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid The solution will be to run hi-rail patrols ahead of trains.
Which will either be bought off, or be too afraid (rightly so, I'd imagine) to do anything.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Euclid The solution will be to run hi-rail patrols ahead of trains. Which will either be bought off, or be too afraid (rightly so, I'd imagine) to do anything.
In the Los Angeles basin, there have been repeated incidents with gangs hitting container trains, pig trains, auto racks and junk freights getting into and out of the terminals. No sooner does one gang get busted, then another takes its place. Railroad police have all kinds of different tactics to deal with the problem, but the best way to fight it is to keep the trains moving at 10+ MPH* and never stopping until inside the terminal.(really hard to do around a terminal, especially if you are mixed-in with silver worm people movers)
*fast enough to to stop boarding or dismounting a railcar. I suspect the KCS ruckus was started by trying to get the train into the terminal in one move as efficiently/quickly as possible, contrary to some of the BLE/UTU claims.
I can just see the over-extended DS stopping his juggling act just to give priority to a cinderdick in a hi-rail. (with apologies to Balt, us on the track side know what's gonna happen with that idea.)
Can somebody clarify who it is that needs protection from Mexican gangs that rob trains? Are these U.S. crews running trains from U.S. railroads inside of Mexico? Or are they Mexican crews running Mexican trains inside of Mexico while engaged in moving Mexican manufactured goods from Mexico to the U.S.? If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery?
EuclidIf it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery?
Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot?
And I thought you of all people would be concerned, Bucky. You seem to always be at the front of every concern on this site.
zugmann Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery? Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot? And I thought you of all people would be concerned, Bucky. You seem to always be at the front of every concern on this site.
Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery?
I guess in Bucky's world Mexicans are just rapists, robbers and druggies, not worthy of human concern.
zugmann Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery? Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot?
Does that make us responsible for their social problems? How would we go about preventing their gangs from wrecking their trains to steal products being shipped to us? From some of the news reports, it sounds like a rapidly escalating problem. What is the solution?
Euclid zugmann Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery? Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot? Does that make us responsible for their social problems? How would we go about preventing their gangs from wrecking their trains to steal products being shipped to us? From some of the news reports, it sounds like a rapidly escalating problem. What is the solution?
Demonizing a entire country of people does not help that country in any attemps to solve their own issues. It is just pouring more fuel on the fire.
Is that the proper way to treat your neighbor?
Too bad the United States didn't annex Mexico in 1848 just like California and the areas that would become Arizona and New Mexico.
They'd have been a lot better off.
BaltACD Euclid zugmann Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery? Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot? Does that make us responsible for their social problems? How would we go about preventing their gangs from wrecking their trains to steal products being shipped to us? From some of the news reports, it sounds like a rapidly escalating problem. What is the solution? Demonizing a entire country of people does not help that country in any attemps to solve their own issues. It is just pouring more fuel on the fire. Is that the proper way to treat your neighbor?
Nobody is demonizing an entire country. You sound like you are making a political statement.
Euclid Nobody is demonizing an entire country. You sound like you are making a political statement.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid zugmann Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery? Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot? Does that make us responsible for their social problems? How would we go about preventing their gangs from wrecking their trains to steal products being shipped to us? From some of the news reports, it sounds like a rapidly escalating problem. What is the solution? Demonizing a entire country of people does not help that country in any attemps to solve their own issues. It is just pouring more fuel on the fire. Is that the proper way to treat your neighbor? Nobody is demonizing an entire country. You sound like you are making a political statement.
You haven't been hearing (or understanding) what POTUS is saying.
EuclidWhat is the solution?
Thought you would have one.
zugmann Euclid What is the solution? Thought you would have one.
Euclid What is the solution?
No, I don't have any solutions for this problem. Too much space, too little security. It will just add to the cost of doing business until somebody else can do it cheaper.
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid zugmann Euclid If it is the latter, why should we be concerned about Mexican train robbery? Because we are the consumers of those goods? How else do you think the companies are going to pay for all that stolen loot? Does that make us responsible for their social problems? How would we go about preventing their gangs from wrecking their trains to steal products being shipped to us? From some of the news reports, it sounds like a rapidly escalating problem. What is the solution? Demonizing a entire country of people does not help that country in any attemps to solve their own issues. It is just pouring more fuel on the fire. Is that the proper way to treat your neighbor? Nobody is demonizing an entire country. You sound like you are making a political statement. You haven't been hearing (or understanding) what POTUS is saying.
Before the moderators sensitivities are damaged; Since I posted this, I had hoped that this would not get derailed into the weeds.
The Mexican Operations of KCS via KCSdeM. Have grown exponentially, over the last several years, and as reported in the article in the October issue; they seem to almost to have become 'a tail wagging the dog' senario.
Based on some of the recent Threads on this Forum, The problem of theft alwayseems to be in the corners of the railroading world;we seem to hear about the issues in this Country and those same types of issues( robbery, theft, etc.) as they happen across the border in Mexico.
Ultimately, it always seem to boil down to the operating crews that are on the front lines of those problems. American or Mexican, they are the ones who are placed in danger while on their trains. Mexican robbers seem to be pretty brazen, and certainly seem to be most active; and the Mexican Federal government seems to be somewhat impotent in its duties where policing is needed.
We know that American Railroads are able to put their own police into action and do coordingate with other policing authorties at every level of government. Mexican PD's not so much?
The whole point is; Is theft from their trains and ompanies, getting to be a problem for American railroads that cross the border into Mexico? KCSdeM, UPRR, and BNSF operate in some degree on the border, and cross border. American or Mexican crews would seem to deserve some protection on the job. Can the American roads offer any protection across that border for employees or cargo?
samfp1943The whole point is; Is theft from their trains and ompanies, getting to be a problem for American railroads that cross the border into Mexico? KCSdeM, UPRR, and BNSF operate in some degree on the border, and cross border. American or Mexican crews would seem to deserve some protection on the job. Can the American roads offer any protection across that border for employees or cargo?
Is there any evidence that U.S. railroads are experiencing a crime problem while operating in Mexico? Have there been cases where their trains or crews have been robbed while in Mexico?
Euclid samfp1943 The whole point is; Is theft from their trains and ompanies, getting to be a problem for American railroads that cross the border into Mexico? KCSdeM, UPRR, and BNSF operate in some degree on the border, and cross border. American or Mexican crews would seem to deserve some protection on the job. Can the American roads offer any protection across that border for employees or cargo? Is there any evidence that U.S. railroads are experiencing a crime problem while operating in Mexico? Have there been cases where their trains or crews have been robbed while in Mexico?
samfp1943 The whole point is; Is theft from their trains and ompanies, getting to be a problem for American railroads that cross the border into Mexico? KCSdeM, UPRR, and BNSF operate in some degree on the border, and cross border. American or Mexican crews would seem to deserve some protection on the job. Can the American roads offer any protection across that border for employees or cargo?
Euclid: A couple of things: I am not sure that American crews go into Mexico, and if they do how far they travel(?) Apparently, the hot bed for train robbery is in the southestern quadrant of the country, Mexico City and south(?).
title on the followinG ARTICLE WAS "600TRAIN ROBBERYS A MONTH"
SEE ARTICLE LINKED@ https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/600-train-robberies-a-month-in-guanajuato/
FTL:"...Unlike Ferromex, rail cargo firm Kansas City Southern sees fewer robberies as it has complied with the recommendations issued by the state government, he said. Sixty-eight per cent of the robberies are facilitated by thieves forcing the trains to stop by closing brake valves, 30% by obstructing the rails with barricades and 2% when signs or the rails themselves are altered. The situation is similar in the state of Querétaro, where an attempt by would-be robbers to slow a train early this morning in Tequisquiapan caused the derailment of the locomotive and at least three cars and injured two people..." this linked article:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/train-robbers-launch-brazen-wave-of-attacks-south-of-the-border
title was "Train Robber Capital of the World" Seems like FerroMex is a major target where they run(?). It may class as an American carrier,now with its recent purchase of FEC RR in Florida?
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