I'm curious to thoughts, as my grandfather was a brakeman and then engineer for over 30 years with the VGN. 1) Would it have maybe lasted to 1964 before N&W mergered NKP and Wabash, then gone to N&W? 2) Would Chessie or Seaboard Systems have benefitted from merger if VGN lasted to the 70's?, 3) Would MP, UP, or SP have extended VGN track from WV/Ohio to the Mississippi River to give "them" access to Norfolk and the Atlantic Ocean? 4) or some other scenario? Thanks.
VGN JessI'm curious to thoughts, as my grandfather was a brakeman and then engineer for over 30 years with the VGN. 1) Would it have maybe lasted to 1964 before N&W mergered NKP and Wabash, then gone to N&W? 2) Would Chessie or Seaboard Systems have benefitted from merger if VGN lasted to the 70's?, 3) Would MP, UP, or SP have extended VGN track from WV/Ohio to the Mississippi River to give "them" access to Norfolk and the Atlantic Ocean? 4) or some other scenario? Thanks.
History has been written and acted upon account the economics of the time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It seems the most likely alernative merger partner would have been the NYC which connected with the VGN at Deepwater, WV.
BaltACD VGN Jess History has been written and acted upon account the economics of the time.
VGN Jess
The Virginian Rwy operating in the N&Ws 'neighborhood' was constanly, beset with poor financial interactions with the bigger N&W. Its major connection outside that sphere was as has been stated in the Norfolk Port area with C&O. Itwas in the early 1930's when VGN built a bridge over the Kanawah River, in the area of Mullins,W.Va. That gave VGN access to the NYC, and changed it from just a coal carrier to potentially, a bridge route from the midwest to the port of Norfolk.
It is somewhat interesting that monies for its construction came from individuals who had gotten their wealth as investors in Standard Oil Co. Money was not a problem for its building, and the railroad was well engineered and laid with heavy rail from its start. As wa the 134 miles of electrification from Mullins to Roanoke. Its neighboring road was very well aware of the VGN and gave it financial problems at every opportunity.One way was car exchange rates, kept high for VGN by N&W. It is of some interest in the late 1920/30's era the VGN was sometime know as "...The richest little railroad in the world..." Here are a couple of links that may be of some interest:
https://www.american-rails.com/virginian-railway.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginian_Railway
One likely outcome would have been the electric operation lasting longer.
erikem One likely outcome would have been the electric operation lasting longer.
mudchicken erikem One likely outcome would have been the electric operation lasting longer. ... and then vanished faster than the PCE of the Milwaukee.
... and then vanished faster than the PCE of the Milwaukee.
I am still not quite certain how N&W was permitted to acquire VGN; surely the merger had anticompetitive effect both in coal and in potential bridge traffic to tidewater.
The electrification would surely have had 'legs' far longer had the merger not occurred and directional running then been implemented; every source I've read on the subject says the reason for dropping the electrification was the effective deadheading required. This was an 11kV AC system, not 3000VDC with no upgrade path in two separated islands with stuff on wooden poles to maintain, so I have to wonder if much of the expedient argument for de-electrification in the late '60s to early '70s would apply; I expect it would have been preserved after the OPEC embargo at least long enough to get to the era of Conrail-style dual-mode-lite or road-slug-plus MU if there were an advantage to running consists through as MILW discovered there was with modern diesels.
On the other hand, I have to wonder how many of the aspects of the Tumbler Ridge electrification were common to VGN operations. Probably no few.
Think of the fun of a fleet of 4483s in VGN colors... with all the mod cons of the era.
NYC? Hummm..then 20 years later VGN is with Conrail.
"I am still not quite certain how N&W was permitted to acquire VGN; surely the merger had anticompetitive effect both in coal and in potential bridge traffic to tidewater."--Nor am I, but when government regulatory agencies get involved common sense takes a back seat to politics. Don't forget: N&W was still a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania in 1959. Penn probobly had a lot of political muscle back then.
"Think of the fun of a fleet of 4483s in VGN colors... with all the mod cons of the era."--I'd like to think the VGN of 2018 would look like NS's VGN heritage model. Can't beat the bunblebee colors.
I'm sure electrification would have lasted longerr, too. It was an effecient and effective method of moving coal over Clarks Gap.
Thanks; very familiar w/VGN Wiki site. I was curious as to what kind of creative thinkers are out there.
VGN's electrification was in better shape in the late 1950's than the Milwaukee's (most of the motive power was post-WW2), the electrical system was capable of handling more HP per train. VGN was also in a bit better financial shape than the Milw. Had it made it past 1973, it would have likely lasted to the 80's.
OTOH, had the N&W been told "NoWay" to the merger ca 1956, the N&W steam may have also lasted a bit longer as well.
"Had it made it past 1973, it would have likely lasted to the 80's."--That's my feeling as well. Nice to have it validated. Where do you see VGN going in the 80's?
I still feel that MP/UP/SP (Maybe even BN) would have extended VGN's rails to the Mississippi River so one of them could have had a true (ie...direct) transcon from the Pacific to the Atlantic on one roads rails.
At first blush thought of SOU RR acquiring VGN. Unfortunately SOU's coal traffic could not easily have gained access to Tidewater coaling ? That is unless SOU got some kind of track rights from N&W Norton to Roanoke ?
VGN JessNYC? Hummm..then 20 years later VGN is with Conrail.
Even the NYC of the post-proxy-fight Young years wouldn't have had the money to acquire and run VGN effectively. Its value in any case was in providing an end-connection to allow VGN to operate bridge traffic effectively, which presumably would have been preserved through both PC and Conrail. There is little presumption that VGN would have been in such parlous state by the Seventies as to be incorporated in the 3R Act planning, particularly if the modern electrification was panning out.
It may bear mentioning at this point that the last Virginian motors (which ultimately became E33s) were geared for 65mph, and presumably any follow-on units, including dual-modes, would be comparable. That leaves the prospect of effective high-speed bridge traffic without massive energy-cost penalty in the 'Trailer Jet' age ... the problem being that bridge traffic to the tidewater ports as they were then (and perhaps now) isn't exactly a major part of freight. Perhaps a coordinated effort to develop ports either in Hampton Roads or the Sewalls/Sewells Point area, after the manner of Prince Rupert BC recently, would have enhanced traffic "alternative to coal". That might have made deepwater facilities attractive to the prospective generations of very large container carriers that would have trouble, say, negotiating the Delaware all those miles to reach an effective rail connection.
SOU RR makes alot of sense; crazy I hadn't thought of them. Their lines could have easily tied into VGN's lines in western VA and SE WV and given them direct access to Norfolk. I wonder why SOU never pursued VGN?
Thanks. That's alot to think about and very on point to the type creative RR guys I knew were on this forum. I'll have the NS VGN heritage SD70ACe unit to look at for memories (at least until the 1st repaint takes it to NS B&W).
SAL or ACL crossed the VGN as well as the SOU. I'm not familiar enough with then to know what, if any traffic would be diverted to Norfolk to go overseas.
Both the ACL and SAL crossed the Virginian on their ways from Richmond to the Carolinas and farther south. Also, both railroads entered the Portsmouth area; one from from Rocky Mount, N.C, and the other from Norlina, N.C.
Johnny
Johnny, What are your thoughts on why the SOU didn't merge the VGN to get access to Norfolk? Any thoughts on why MP/UP/SP didn't merge with and extend VGN tracks from WV/OH to the Mississippi River to have a true direct Transcon?
The Southern had access to Norfolk via the Atlantic and Danville until 1949. They apparently didn't see it being worthwhile, so they dropped the lease.
Norfolk was pretty much just a coal port for most of the VGN's existence.
VGN Jess Johnny, What are your thoughts on why the SOU didn't merge the VGN to get access to Norfolk? Any thoughts on why MP/UP/SP didn't merge with and extend VGN tracks from WV/OH to the Mississippi River to have a true direct Transcon?
Thus, the Southern had its own routes into the area, and did not need the Virginian.
I ;m not sure how the MP or any other western road would have reached West Virginia. Remember that the Virginian's western most point was Deepwater Bridge, where it connected with the NYC. Once this connection was possible, there was through service between Roanoke and Charleston, W.Va. Indeed, in 1945, there was a through day passenger train Roanoke-Charleston, and you could ride from any point between Roanoke and the junction to/from any point on the NYC--but no local traffic was permitted on the NYC.
If a western RR wanted to reach the Atlantic they bought into existing eastern railroads, such as Harriman and Gould did. Ultimatly the ICC nixed the expansions.
That's the answer I think I was looking for. I presumed mergers were the only way. So you think since the western RRs owners never "bought into" VGN, they saw no benefit from a direct transcom from the Pacific to the Atlantic? VGN, being so relatively small would have otherwise been easy to buy.
Johnny, Thanks. I did not think of the A&D (and later the N.F. & D); that answers my SOU question.
The only way the MP or any other western road would have reached West Virginia was via extension of VGN tracks to the Mississippi River; I guess there just wasn't enough business to warrant a direct Pacific to Atlantic transcon. Making connections thru Chicago to the east was just less costly.
VGN JessJohnny, Thanks. I did not think of the A&D (and later the N.F. & D); that answers my SOU question. The only way the MP or any other western road would have reached West Virginia was via extension of VGN tracks to the Mississippi River; I guess there just wasn't enough business to warrant a direct Pacific to Atlantic transcon. Making connections thru Chicago to the east was just less costly.
No US railroads were envisioned by their original promoters as Transcons. The 'market' they were promoting their investment opportunities to had trouble contemplating a town 100 miles away as being a profitable project to invest in.
As rail fans we think about drawing lines on the map as being viable railroads. The promoters of their creations were looking at destinations for financial investment that they could secure to build their vision. A Transcon dream project, at that time, too big a dream to attract investment. As rail fans we tend go gloss over just how much sustained traffic volume is required to keep any rail line a viable economic concern - and if the line is not economically viable it will soon cease to exist.
The key to building railroads to the West Coast was Federal Government investment and legislation that spured on both Union Pacific and Central Pacific and their race to complete what we now view as a Transcon.
The Federal Government investment in the transcons was not purely altruistic as quite a bit of revenue was derived from land sales. Having a nearby railroad made the land a lot more valuable.
There was also strategic interest in having the transcons, with the RR in place, troops and their supplies could be moved a lot faster to the west coast than what would be possible before. Multiple transcons made it harder cut the supply lines.
As for the VGN, the funding came from the money made off of Standard Oil and it seems appropriate than they invested in another form of energy.
VGN Jess That's the answer I think I was looking for. I presumed mergers were the only way. So you think since the western RRs owners never "bought into" VGN, they saw no benefit from a direct transcom from the Pacific to the Atlantic? VGN, being so relatively small would have otherwise been easy to buy.
The problem was that the VGN did not connect with the western railroads. If they bought one of the railroads that closed the gap, such as the NYC or C&O, they would already have there Atlantic ports, and would not realy need the VGN.
MidlandMike VGN Jess That's the answer I think I was looking for. I presumed mergers were the only way. So you think since the western RRs owners never "bought into" VGN, they saw no benefit from a direct transcom from the Pacific to the Atlantic? VGN, being so relatively small would have otherwise been easy to buy. The problem was that the VGN did not connect with the western railroads. If they bought one of the railroads that closed the gap, such as the NYC or C&O, they would already have there Atlantic ports, and would not realy need the VGN.
Recall the earlier statements re: the VGN's financial and infrastructure strengths: " It is of some interest in the late 1920/30's era the VGN was sometime know as "...The richest little railroad in the world..." It was laid with heavy rail(for the times) and its financial strength was tied to the foundations laid with investor's Standard Oil Monies(?). Once the VGN had bridged the Kanawah River at Mullins; its connection there, would enhance its strength as a Bridge Route to Norfolk (?)
[Since we are specuating]. Rather than VGN becoming a merger traget, what if it had had its own 'ambitions' to take over C&O? Suddenly, the Big Railroad Picture, could change drastically, then, and into the future (?).
Would it have survived the energy crunch of the early 1970's (?).
What would the future hold for VGN as the nation turned 'its back' for some years on Coal(?). Could it have survived as a 'stand alone' line(?).
Or would it become a merged part of another larger system[NS, maybe?)]
What about it being m merger partner with one of the Western Transcons(?).
What would the VGN look like in this day, and time(?).
Just some speculative questions on my part.
Sam, loved the speculations. Exactly the kind of "stuff" I was hoping for in my original posting. RE your: "what if it had had its own 'ambitions' to take over C&O?"--Personally, I don't think the VGN from the 1950's was imbued with risky executives; rather they picked one thing (hauling coal to Norfolk) and put all efforts in doing that efficiently. I often speculated VGN as a merger partner with one of the Western Transcons to get to Norfolk directly, but one of them would have had to extend the VGNs lines across the entire Commonwealth of KY to connect with MP/UP/SP, but all posters say that would have never happened.
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