I always thought Saluda was the steepest.
A short video regarding the Madison Railroad's 5.89% incline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06F63Fy4lgU
zardozI always thought Saluda was the steepest. A short video regarding the Madison Railroad's 5.89% incline. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06F63Fy4lgU
Have known about the Madison Incline, however, I never knew or realized that that line ran to North Vernon. As a Train Order Operator I worked for the B&O at North Vernon. One is never too old to learn something!
The difference between Saluda and Madison grade has been that Saluda was a 'though' grade encountered between end points, whereas Madison is a terminating grade and has alway been, at best, a minor branch line.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The Madison Incline is something of a special case because it's a line built to a river, not to connect with other railroad lines. If there had been more traffic it is likely that a lower-grade line down the bluffs would have been made; if through traffic warranted, a higher-level bridge might have been built (but essentially bypassing Madison the riverport). The sitution reminded me of Vicksburg, MS (where the Meridian Speedway goes over the river) where there is a similar drop down bluffs in a comparatively short distance through heroic earthworks to where the ferries carried the Queen and Crescent traffic across.
The other 'model' here is the idea of incline or plane railroads, which was still effective at the time this line was planned out. Here grades along 'most' of the line were minimized on the permanent-way model, with large grade changes being made up 'planes' that could be worked with stationary engines and ropes (as in Pennsylvania) or with skips (as at the Ashley Planes, which will put the Madison grade in perspective if you compare them) and with special braking if necessary going down the 'other' side. The PRR operation across Horse Shoe is a slightly later adaptation of the idea which limits the heavy adhesion-grade operation to a comparatively short section amenable to helper operation.
Those SD7s were interesting, and I'm glad to see them getting recognition.
I don't see any distinction between Madison Grade and Saluda Grade that overrides the claim that Madison is the steepest of the two.
Neither right now is in service.
Saluda has had considerably more tonnnage and was built to main track standards, Madison not so much.
There was a similar situation with a different solution at Natchez, Mississippi; the Natchez - Vidalia ferry.
On the Natchez side the railroad built a 4% grade with two switchbacks:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QduqFM_GruQ/SUmssm0iRlI/AAAAAAAAKss/KdqEVOqkhC8/s640/JY+Lockwood+at+Natchez_%28500_x_475%29.jpghttps://www.westernrailimages.com/Mopac/1970s-Mopac/i-H5kkvWrPlease scroll down, I can't link to the single photos.Regards, Volker
EuclidI don't see any distinction between Madison Grade and Saluda Grade that overrides the claim that Madison is the steepest of the two.
"Steeper". For the next time you need a comparative and not superlative.
The distinction is that Saluda is part of a through main line; substantial trains ran through (you may have seen the Southern training film with the unit coal-train operation). The Madison incline operated no differently from Vicksburg/Natchez as a last-mile access to water transport, and part of the reason it never thrived is precisely that it was not part of the 'general system of rail transportation' at both ends. As I noted, had it been a through line there would have been a high-level bridge at some point connecting to the remaining well-built structure (and perhaps a new 'Madison' or other towns developing at the top of the bluffs); as it was, the failure of river shipping in general (see Twain's Life on the Mississippi for the timeline) only sealed the white-elephant status of the tremendous civil earthwork that was the Incline further.
I would disagree with the "Madison - not so much" opinion: the amount of grading and work was colossal for the era, and to me still remains impressive. Whether or not the actual track on that grade was subsequently built up to heavier standards is a bit immaterial; it could be argued that well into the SD7 era it was perfectly adequate for the heaviest trains that actually needed to be sent up and down.
Overmod Euclid I don't see any distinction between Madison Grade and Saluda Grade that overrides the claim that Madison is the steepest of the two. "Steeper". For the next time you need a comparative and not superlative. The distinction is that Saluda is part of a through main line; substantial trains ran through (you may have seen the Southern training film with the unit coal-train operation). The Madison incline operated no differently from Vicksburg/Natchez as a last-mile access to water transport, and part of the reason it never thrived is precisely that it was not part of the 'general system of rail transportation' at both ends. As I noted, had it been a through line there would have been a high-level bridge at some point connecting to the remaining well-built structure (and perhaps a new 'Madison' or other towns developing at the top of the bluffs); as it was, the failure of river shipping in general (see Twain's Life on the Mississippi for the timeline) only sealed the white-elephant status of the tremendous civil earthwork that was the Incline further. I would disagree with the "Madison - not so much" opinion: the amount of grading and work was colossal for the era, and to me still remains impressive. Whether or not the actual track on that grade was subsequently built up to heavier standards is a bit immaterial; it could be argued that well into the SD7 era it was perfectly adequate for the heaviest trains that actually needed to be sent up and down.
Euclid I don't see any distinction between Madison Grade and Saluda Grade that overrides the claim that Madison is the steepest of the two.
Having had the opportunity to switch cars at a number of large industrial plants - my 'observation' is that some tracks serving particular operations in those industries 'may' have tracks that have grades even steeper than either Madison or Saluda. Those tracks were operated with a engine and one or two cars for several hundreds or thousands of feet to service a specific facility within the plant.
BaltACDHaving had the opportunity to switch cars at a number of large industrial plants - my 'observation' is that some tracks serving particular operations in those industries 'may' have tracks that have grades even steeper than either Madison or Saluda. Those tracks were operated with a engine and one or two cars for several hundreds or thousands of feet to service a specific facility within the plant.
Hell yeah. We have a couple*. But they are not that long and are a pain enough. Couldn't imagine running on them for miles.
*- including one with a customer's gate at the bottom. We've bought that customer at least two new gates during two winters.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
The Mahnoy Plane
some planes brought filled cars down the mountain, using gravity to their advantage to pull empties up. The Mahanoy plane was not one of them. A barney road on the inner track, pulled by a cable powered by a steam engine at the top.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
BaltACDmy 'observation' is that some tracks serving particular operations in those industries 'may' have tracks that have grades even steeper than either Madison or Saluda.
The approach to the Boeing plant in Everett is, I believe, at least 6%, and I have heard of leads being as high as 11%. But these are explicitly 'side tracks' - the railroad to Madison is significant as being a bit like the Portage Railroad of roughly similar vintage, a shortest-route state-sanctioned line that happens to require severe grade to get that last couple of miles ... still straight ... down the 400-plus feet of vertical excursion to the water terminus.
Now, no one spending all that money on that very substantial grading expected that within a short time most of the north-south freight then being carried on river shipping would be diverted purely to rail. One might compare the situation with the Hudson River Railroad being built to Albany to ... connect with the Erie Canal, or conversely the situation with the Erie Railroad initially going to Piermont instead of close connections to Manhattan. The difference is that it was possible in the later cases to build the full railroad connections; at Madison they were stuck with a very expensive ramp and that turned out to be that -- there was never 'enough more' money to go beyond what it was.
To go with the Mahanoy Plane are the Ashley Planes (with 4 times the vertical rise as at Madison) up and then over through Solomon Gap, which were in use all the way to 1948 for regular through traffic.
It is difficult to conceive of working this sort of approach strictly with adhesion traction and braking ... let alone operate cost-effectively and still safely with loaded anthracite cars. Note, inherently, that the Madison line could and perhaps should have been worked with a barney/cable system ... but its economics did not so permit.
So the real argument here is not 'the steepest grade in the United States' but the steepest cheap excuse for what could be expediently worked with Gowan and Marx style adhesion at the limit. (Note also that they tried to set up to use a rack system but couldn't keep it maintained ... and, reading between the lines, didn't have the money to try when rack technology improved in a few years.)
My hat was off to Reuben Wells who figured out how to make this trick work, and it is still off to him today.
Oh yes, there are distinctions galore. But, as I said, none of them override the question that Zardoz focused on in his original post regarding only the question of gradient of Madison versus Saluda. In other words, the fact that Saluda carried more tonnage as a through route does not mean that its grade is steeper than Madison.
It was interesting to see that video on Madison, since I have never seen it is such detail before. In all of the passing references that I have seen, I have been left with the impression that Madison Hill was only maybe 1000 feet long, but I am not sure why. I have never seen coverage or photos of that big cut before. It also looks like there is some pretty tall filling on the hill.
If it matters any, ever since I was small I remember reading that Madison Incline was considered the steepest grade on the American railroad system -- not Saluda.
It isn't the tonnage that makes the difference, it's the kind of railroad. That's the reason I brought up the Ashley Planes, which WERE a through railroad over a mountain (albeit a line which, like Madison, originally ended at a water connection).
For those still curious about 'Madison Hill' here is a linked site to an earlier Forum Thread on it:
@http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/72275.aspx?page=1
Euclidthe fact that Saluda carried more tonnage as a through route does not mean that its grade is steeper than Madison.
Not that easy to say what the steepest RR in the country was, even aside from arguing about what kind of RR. The WM branch for which they ordered that big Shay-- supposedly it had 100-200 ft? of 9%. Should that count, if it's true?
Don't forget the Trains article (1960s?) about those Michigan RRs that had momentum grades over 10%-- in the 1920s, or earlier?
When GN built the spur to the Boeing plant, Trains said the grade was 5.6%.
timz Euclid the fact that Saluda carried more tonnage as a through route does not mean that its grade is steeper than Madison. No one has claimed that 4.4% is more than 5.9%. Not that easy to say what the steepest RR in the country was, even aside from arguing about what kind of RR. The WM branch for which they ordered that big Shay-- supposedly it had 100-200 ft? of 9%. Should that count, if it's true? Don't forget the Trains article (1960s?) about those Michigan RRs that had momentum grades over 10%-- in the 1920s, or earlier? When GN built the spur to the Boeing plant, Trains said the grade was 5.6%.
Euclid the fact that Saluda carried more tonnage as a through route does not mean that its grade is steeper than Madison.
No one has claimed that 4.4% is more than 5.9%.
Yes, as I recall, the Porterfield & Ellis Railroad, aka Pori Loop Line near Pori, Michigan used rod engines (4-4-0s) on a standard gage line with grades as steep as 20%.
Calling Saluda the "steepest grade" is careless. Most of the references I've seen termed it the nation's "steepest mainline grade", acknowledging that the Madison grade was steeper.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRRCalling Saluda the "steepest grade" is careless. Most of the references I've seen termed it the nation's "steepest mainline grade", acknowledging that the Madison grade was steeper.
This is the claim I have always heard!
BaltACD CShaveRR Calling Saluda the "steepest grade" is careless. Most of the references I've seen termed it the nation's "steepest mainline grade", acknowledging that the Madison grade was steeper. This is the claim I have always heard!
CShaveRR Calling Saluda the "steepest grade" is careless. Most of the references I've seen termed it the nation's "steepest mainline grade", acknowledging that the Madison grade was steeper.
One reference calls it the steepest class I mainline railroad grade.
The June 1969 issue of Trains Magazine contains a feature article entitled "WORLD'S STEEPEST ADHESION RAILROAD?" The title refers to the subject of the article which is the Porterfield & Ellis Railroad with its 20% grades. That was their mainline.
I first learned of the Madison grade 40+ years ago, not on a railfan trip, but on a geology field trip when we looked at some of the rock cuts shown in the video.
BaltACDAs a Train Order Operator I worked for the B&O at North Vernon. One is never too old to learn something!
North Vernon had three major Eastern Railroads, the B&O, the NYC, and the PRR. B&O was the big dog in town. Besides its main line from Washington to St Louis, it had a line to Louisville. PRR ran from its Indianapolis to Louisville line at Columbus IN through N Vernon to Madison, NYC ran from Rushville to N Vernon and used the B&O to Watsonville (just North of Jeffersonville) where it had its own track into Jeffersonville and its own big bridge over the Ohio River and into Louisville.. It had had passenger service from Louisville connecting at Greensburg with Cincinnati-Chicago trains.
Today the CSX still oprerates and crosses the former PRR track just west of the depot. A connection in the NE quadrant is there.
Back in the mid-fifties the B&O had three through passenger trains (Nw York, Washington DC-St. Louis) and two Louisville-Cincinnati trains. Plus a couple of North Vernon-Louisville passenger trains that carried cars from Detroit and/or Washinton which were transferred at Cincinnati. And the St Louis sleeper which was transferred to/from the Metropolitan. It was a busy place. The three through trains were dieselized but the rest were still steam. B&O swung west from Jeffersonville to New Albany IN and used the K&I bridge to the riverfront Central Station.
One day in 1954, I took a trip using B&O's #3, The Diplomat to Noth Vernon, Then the local (steam) to Louisville, and changed stations and the L&N back to Cincinnati. Cost, about $5. B&O had Louisville sleepers to New York, Detroit, and St Louis back then. Not sure when you worked there.
And I found this on North Vernon. It indicates a unique signal at the crossing.
Larry, If you scroll down, you will find something for you.
http://www.railfanguides.us/in/northvernon/index.htm
The Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia at milepost 10.8 has a grade reported as "about 9%". This was a logging railroad with the loads going down grade using switch backs. I do not think this was a common carrier line. It did connect with the Western Maryland at Spruce and the C&O at Cass so it could be considered a through route. The only passenger service was transporting loggers to their job sites. Now it is a state park with significant tourist passengers well worth visiting.
The WM chart says the Chaffee Branch (retired 1955) climbed 339.5 feet in 5711 feet-- so barely steeper than Madison Hill. Included in that was a 57.7 ft climb in 815 ft, so 7% for that distance.
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