Correcting repeated misinformation is not an ad hominem attack.
Referring to 'pedantic nit-picking corrections', however, is. I'll let the attitude slide since I can't help people get over mean-spiritedness if they choose not to.
aegrotatioI misstated a speed limit.
To which a normal reaction to a correction would be, "Oops, sorry, you're right, I meant..."
Stating assumptions (or agendas) as fact has become far too common here. So has taking offense to being corrected.
There was a time when someone knowledgeable in the business was treated as a resource on this forum. We went to them as experts in their field. Nowadays, the same people seem to be regarded by some as a bunch of "know-it-alls" and a clique. Why is that?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68To which a normal reaction to a correction would be, "Oops, sorry, you're right, I meant..."
Everybody has a different kind to admit a mistake and that is what aegrotatio did. I have learned in management training to let people save their face when caught with a mistake when ever possible. Here? The picking starts in many cases.
tree68There was a time when someone knowledgeable in the business was treated as a resource on this forum. We went to them as experts in their field. Nowadays, the same people seem to be regarded by some as a bunch of "know-it-alls" and a clique. Why is that?
I'm reading this forum for about 10 years. My experience is that railroaders tend to react as a clique when a topic gets questioned by non-railroaders. And then there are the non-railroaders that adore the railroaders because they are experts.
I stated in another thread that I wouldn't have survived in my job if has believed all experts. Having years of experience doesn't make me an expert. And a real expert allows to be questioned and doesn't hide behind being an expert.
An example of an unprofessional reactio was the Batory thread were I got the following answer when questioning the necessity of a railroader as head of the FRA:There are enough unknowledgable idiots outside the FRA that think they can tell the FRA what to do, and you are beginning to sound like one of them.
Am I an idiot now? Is an insult necessary? I let it go at that time but it shows, at least in my opinion, the reoccuring tension between railroaders and non-railroader
It doesn't seem easy for some railroaders to accept different opinions and questioning.
Yes, I learn a lot from railroaders here. Are they unerring? For sure not. And I think it is sometimes necessary to get questioned from an outsider to loose ones blinkers.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR tree68 To which a normal reaction to a correction would be, "Oops, sorry, you're right, I meant..." Everybody has a different kind to admit a mistake and that is what aegrotatio did. I have learned in management training to let people save their face when caught with a mistake when ever possible. Here? The picking starts in many cases. tree68 There was a time when someone knowledgeable in the business was treated as a resource on this forum. We went to them as experts in their field. Nowadays, the same people seem to be regarded by some as a bunch of "know-it-alls" and a clique. Why is that? I'm reading this forum for about 10 years. My experience is that railroaders tend to react as a clique when a topic gets questioned by non-railroaders. And then there are the non-railroaders that adore the railroaders because they are experts. I stated in another thread that I wouldn't have survived in my job if has believed all experts. Having years of experience doesn't make me an expert. And a real expert allows to be questioned and doesn't hide behind being an expert. An example of an unprofessional reactio was the Batory thread were I got the following answer when questioning the necessity of a railroader as head of the FRA:There are enough unknowledgable idiots outside the FRA that think they can tell the FRA what to do, and you are beginning to sound like one of them. Am I an idiot now? Is an insult necessary? I let it go at that time but it shows, at least in my opinion, the reoccuring tension between railroaders and non-railroader It doesn't seem easy for some railroaders to accept different opinions and questioning. Yes, I learn a lot from railroaders here. Are they unerring? For sure not. And I think it is sometimes necessary to get questioned from an outsider to loose ones blinkers.Regards, Volker
tree68 To which a normal reaction to a correction would be, "Oops, sorry, you're right, I meant..."
tree68 There was a time when someone knowledgeable in the business was treated as a resource on this forum. We went to them as experts in their field. Nowadays, the same people seem to be regarded by some as a bunch of "know-it-alls" and a clique. Why is that?
VOLKER LANDWEHRMy experience is that railroaders tend to react as a clique when a topic gets questioned by non-railroaders.
I would opine that is because they're all reading out of similar rulebooks and have similar real world experience.
I don't mind folks asking questions. What I do mind is folks who ask a question, don't get the answer they were looking for, then backpedal and rephrase the question. Rinse, lather, repeat. Especially when the answer is the same each time.
And maybe it's not that the forum regulars that are getting meaner. Maybe it's a reaction to what they're seeing from certain participants on the forum. After a while it can get tiring.
Which is why we don't post much, it isn't worth being bothered over.
23 17 46 11
Sigh.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I, too, sigh. What a ridiculous situation. I had hoped much more from the participants in this forum. Evidently, I had hoped wrongly.
I did not see where I was "rephrasing the question" after it was asked. Please enlighten me where I did this, because I might be too stupid to understand how that had happened.
This forum is mean for no reason. I would like to learn why being a jerk is justifiable.
I thought you gave up?
aegrotatioI did not see where I was "rephrasing the question" after it was asked. Please enlighten me where I did this, because I might be too stupid to understand how that had happened.
Nobody said you ever did. But it does happen here.
This thing is snowballing in the wrong directions entirely, and now there's starting to be collateral damage.
Part of the Bene Gesserit management techniques involves ways to resolve errors without making it into blaming or shaming over mistakes. In the present case, this all started over a request not to 'admit' a 'mistake' but to document an assertion. There is no need for some kind of wrecker-trial statement of admission of culpability: the point is to get correct information out there and keep readers from being confused or distracted by reading wrong information.
I would like the folks who are starting to backhand-implicate Euclid/Bucky into this thread by innuendo to please stop. It's already got aegrotatio thinking it applies to him, and the situation (at least to me) of rectifying errors of fact is a very different business from commenting on opinions.
We are all friends here, or supposed to be, and it becomes much more difficult to make any sort of constructive criticism work if the faith that we aren't friends collapses. This is not /. or one of those puerile flame-war peepee contest sites where 'dick-measuring' often outweighs knowledge building.
I would suggest we have long strayed from the (significant) original topic of this thread and should now take a collective breath and go back to it objectively.
I answered because tree68 asked why the railroaders are regarded by some as "know-it-alls" and clique. It is my personal perception.
The irritation began long before my post. You asked for a quote, so far OK from my point of view. Then came Balt's post unintentionally ashaming argrotatio.
He answered he misquoted something. The misquote contains the acknowledgement of a mistake. Why not let it go at this point, why pick on the diction and why tell how a reaction on a correction should read?
Do you think that complies to what you call Bene Gesserit management technique? I think it shouldn't be just a technique but common sense.
OvermodWe are all friends here, or supposed to be, and it becomes much more difficult to make any sort of constructive criticism work if the faith that we aren't friends collapses.
We should be and we are as long as we non-railroaders agree with the railroaders. If we don't that can turn very quickly depending on the standing of the person in this forum.
I think there was an unmasking answer following my post: Which is why we don't post much, it isn't worth being bothered over.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHRWhy not let it go at this point, why pick on the diction and why tell how a reaction on a correction should read? Do you think that complies to what you call Bene Gesserit management technique? I think it shouldn't be just a technique but common sense.
As you will learn as you get further into management training, the Bene Gesserit aspects involve not the 'correction' of 'error', but analyzing the cause of mistakes, particularly mistaken attitudes, and the effective addressing of those going forward.
In this particular case there were a couple of big red flags: you had someone who thought saying 'I misquoted something' without even citing the source he claimed to have misquoted was enough for a free pass, and then copped an attitude that it wasn't important, let's move on.
In the first place, you haven't given him any guidance on why not to do that again; remember that this was not a mistake but a repeated assurance implicitly from knowledgeable 'sources'. It's dangerous to have people think that way, especially on forums where someone might believe it and start (potentially endless, but that's another story) distracted postings or accusations based on the 'fact'. Again, not because someone is 'getting away with' something but because the search for knowledge and truth is compromised.
In the second place, when you have a repeated sullen attitude and ad-hominem insults rather than a simple acknowledgement of sources used or referenced (or a simple statement like 'I can't find them now' or 'oops, I misread the numbers in xxxxx news story), you're tolerating not just bad behavior but a bad attitude in general. (And we might remember what another SF author, R.A.Heinlein, thought about tolerating bad manners...)
Now of course neither of these applies formally to aegrotatio, as he's not your or our employee; this is America and you can say what you want on a forum as long as you stay within the TOS (which does discourage ad hominems, but we're men (and women) enough to stand them); and we're not the forum sicherheitsdienst, to say nothing of getting in his personal business. I say all this only by way of explaining that yes, there is valid theoretical and empirical management knowledge, not just semantics, behind some of the things I said.
In any case, I would close with a MORAL, which is that there is no sin in being wrong; often we learn best from mistakes and perhaps best of all when we receive information that is itself wrong and have to stand up for truth. There is a kind of corollary, though, which is not to resent, or worse to deprecate, legitimate requests to explain or document something better, and another corollary which is that, just as ignorance is not stupidity, enlightenment is not punishment or shaming. Some of the participants here, railroaders or not, could benefit from the latter.
(Perhaps we need a Litany for Criticism to go with the Litany Against Fear... ?)
The biggest problem is that the non-railroaders have visions of 'Unstopable' as their view of how railroads really operate. Railroaders KNOW that all the actions portrayed by the 'heros' were total flights of fantasy. Therein is the gulf between the two populations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm retired so I won't get deeper into management training. And to be honest I have never heard of Bene Gesserit and his technique does interest me. It doesn't apply here.
Our management training wasn't at the university (1967-1973) but on the job. So there was no time for theories.
What interests me in this case is the perception by the criticized.
As I said before, asking for a quote was OK. The follow-up was completely unnecessary as I see it.
But I see we can agree that we disagree.Regards, Volker
BaltACDThe biggest problem is that the non-railroaders have visions of 'Unstopable' as their view of how railroads really operate.
Sorry I can't contribute here I never saw this movie completely only a preview.
I don't think that we non-railroaders believe railroads work that way. But even if, here is a place for the railroaders to educate us. But that needs patience and ability to accept being questioned and to accept differing opinions.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR I don't think that we non-railroaders believe railroads work that way. But even if, here is a place for the railroaders to educate us. But that needs patience and ability to accept being questioned and to accept differing opinions. Regards, Volker
No matter how many people ask questions, or how they re-ask questions, or how they change the definition of the question, or how they reword the answers - -
--
The railroaders still take the time to reply.
---
So can we put away the daggers already? I know this forum hasn't had a good ol'fashion temper tantrum in a bit, but really.... Are the railraoders a clique? Sure. But we share a common interest. There are several "cliques" running around. I could say Volker, Euclid, and Overmod are in a clique. They alwasy seem to show up together in threads. That's not a bad thing - they just share common interests. If there's engineering stuff, then we have another group (chicken and paul). Rate stuff? Greyhounds and Balt are always there. Trucking issues have their representatives (Shadow being a primary one).
The trick is not to take any of this personal. Have a little fun. Yeah, at times tensions and frustrations get high and you may need to take a breather. But it isn't worth getting upset about. Some of the guys I fought with the most in years past are the ones I enjoy talking to the most now.
Career railroaders have very thick skins. Thin skins during the course of their employment end up running off account their hurt feelings. Railroading in the field is not for the faint of heart and the easily offended.
Overmod VOLKER LANDWEHR Why not let it go at this point, why pick on the diction and why tell how a reaction on a correction should read? Do you think that complies to what you call Bene Gesserit management technique? I think it shouldn't be just a technique but common sense. As you will learn as you get further into management training, the Bene Gesserit aspects involve not the 'correction' of 'error', but analyzing the cause of mistakes, particularly mistaken attitudes, and the effective addressing of those going forward. In this particular case there were a couple of big red flags: you had someone who thought saying 'I misquoted something' without even citing the source he claimed to have misquoted was enough for a free pass, and then copped an attitude that it wasn't important, let's move on. In the first place, you haven't given him any guidance on why not to do that again; remember that this was not a mistake but a repeated assurance implicitly from knowledgeable 'sources'. It's dangerous to have people think that way, especially on forums where someone might believe it and start (potentially endless, but that's another story) distracted postings or accusations based on the 'fact'. Again, not because someone is 'getting away with' something but because the search for knowledge and truth is compromised. In the second place, when you have a repeated sullen attitude and ad-hominem insults rather than a simple acknowledgement of sources used or referenced (or a simple statement like 'I can't find them now' or 'oops, I misread the numbers in xxxxx news story), you're tolerating not just bad behavior but a bad attitude in general. (And we might remember what another SF author, R.A.Heinlein, thought about tolerating bad manners...) Now of course neither of these applies formally to aegrotatio, as he's not your or our employee; this is America and you can say what you want on a forum as long as you stay within the TOS (which does discourage ad hominems, but we're men (and women) enough to stand them); and we're not the forum sicherheitsdienst, to say nothing of getting in his personal business. I say all this only by way of explaining that yes, there is valid theoretical and empirical management knowledge, not just semantics, behind some of the things I said. In any case, I would close with a MORAL, which is that there is no sin in being wrong; often we learn best from mistakes and perhaps best of all when we receive information that is itself wrong and have to stand up for truth. There is a kind of corollary, though, which is not to resent, or worse to deprecate, legitimate requests to explain or document something better, and another corollary which is that, just as ignorance is not stupidity, enlightenment is not punishment or shaming. Some of the participants here, railroaders or not, could benefit from the latter. (Perhaps we need a Litany for Criticism to go with the Litany Against Fear... ?)
VOLKER LANDWEHR Why not let it go at this point, why pick on the diction and why tell how a reaction on a correction should read? Do you think that complies to what you call Bene Gesserit management technique? I think it shouldn't be just a technique but common sense.
VOLKER LANDWEHRAnd to be honest I have never heard of Bene Gesserit and his technique does interest me.
You're not a fan of SF, are you? For the record this was meant more than a little sardonically.
The "Bene Gesserit" was a society of 'wise women' in the Frank Herbert 'Dune' books. They used applied psychology and manipulation techniques to get their way. The reference here is that Apple (when they were a computer and not a toy company) had an advanced and sophisticated HR department, skilled in the ways of herding cats, and the techies referred to the HR people as the Bene Gesserit for doing all that fancy MMPI-enabled personality-type assessment (insert here the fad flavor-of-the-month theories HR or management desires ... there are so many) which modern HR departments so love. By extension: the term applies to HR or equivalent trying to get the functional 'best' out of people by using sometimes intentionally arcane methodogies, while often also intentionally not divulging what the operational goals are supposed to be.
I like the "finding a girlfriend" thread better than this one...
OvermodYou're not a fan of SF, are you? For the record this was meant more than a little sardonically.
No I'm not a fan of science fiction. And you should know better than me that sarcasm doesn't really work in a forum, especially with someone whose native language not English but German is. I'm struggling enough sometimes with your style of writing that sarcasm is often lost at me.Regards, Volker
Sardonically not aimed at you, of course, but at the 'school' of management that uses secret techniques to get people to do things.
I think I've been around SF folks too long to remember there are normal people who don't recognize the tropes.
Overmod Sardonically not aimed at you, of course, but at the 'school' of management that uses secret techniques to get people to do things. I think I've been around SF folks too long to remember there are normal people who don't recognize the tropes.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Randy Stahl I like the "finding a girlfriend" thread better than this one...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude Randy Stahl I like the "finding a girlfriend" thread better than this one...
Murphy SidingFor better or for worse that one was a little more focused and friendly.
Could be a new angle to this forum.
Like usual I agree with Zug.
Discussions need to be a two-way street. That means the "experts" should take time to answer questions thoroughly and explain their rationales, and those asking the questions should accept the answers, even when they are not what they were were expecting.
I have been watching from the peanut gallery, but have mostly stayed out of this as I believe life is to short to make arguing on the internet worthwhile. Anyway, the trains won't run themselves (yet).
As a society we have become far too sensitive. Just my .
zugmann Could be a new angle to this forum.
Foamers Only?
SD70DudeLike usual I agree with Zug.
Great. Now we're a clique.
Should we get matching shirts?
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