CSX vs. Amtrak 91 at Cayce, SC

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:31 PM

BigJim

 

 
Murphy Siding
Tree and/or 243129- can you explain the orientation of the cab equipment that would cause 243129 to say that the engineer would have to leave his seat? 

 

Because the Emergency button is on the conductor's side in plain site, I can read it from here. That red button on the engineer's side is the "Cab Signal Acknowledge" button. Enlarge the picture to read the label.

 

The engineer moves the brake handle all the way forward to put the brakes in emergency, just like on any other automatic brake valve.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:37 PM

    What effect would the movement of the train- going from 59(?) mph on the mainline and taking a quick right hand turn- have on the crew's ability to grasp the situation and react in a hurry? Would that maneuver have thrown them out of their seats?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:58 PM

Murphy Siding
Would that maneuver have thrown them out of their seats?

Perhaps; we won't know until we see the inside-camera view.  Clearly the engineer was close enough to the horn to sound it, and the blended-brake lever to actuate it, seconds after traversing the switch.  That does not indicate to me that the engineer was particularly 'disabled' by the lateral shock or confused for more than a second or so if that.  But we'd need to see the camera file to know anything for sure.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:10 PM

I was away from the computer.  And BigJim handled the explanation.

The point of posting the pictures was to show that there is a big red button.  It is analagous to the emergency brake valve on the conductor/firemen's side on older locomotives.  Many current locomotives actually have electronics over air brake systems, so a push button on the right side makes perfect sense.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:12 AM

For those of you who may be interested, here is an 'official' P42 video with some elementary discussion of controls.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRValOA7TZo

The emergency application button is around 25 minutes in; I think it's intended as the 'assistant engineer's'  way to put the train in emergency, as it nominally does the same thing as the 'emergency' position on the engineer's blended brake controller does.  It releases by pulling.  But 49 CFR 238.231(c) states an emergency application on a passenger train must be 'irretrievable' so I would presume the button also holds the brake system in emergency, independent of the engineer's controls, until pulled up. 

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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:17 AM

Murphy Siding

    What effect would the movement of the train- going from 59(?) mph on the mainline and taking a quick right hand turn- have on the crew's ability to grasp the situation and react in a hurry? Would that maneuver have thrown them out of their seats?

 

It would rock them a lot, and the first action the engineer takes is a brake reduction, then, when he realized what was going to happen, he plugged it.

23 17 46 11

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:34 AM

The P42s that I've been on have WABCO EPIC air brake. The only difference between the P42 and the freight engines is the brake interface for the cab signal and ACSES equipment.

 

As far as I know the ACSES overlay on ATC equipment is limited to the NE Corridor.

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:38 AM

Murphy Siding

 

 
BigJim

 

 
Murphy Siding
Tree and/or 243129- can you explain the orientation of the cab equipment that would cause 243129 to say that the engineer would have to leave his seat? 

 

Because the Emergency button is on the conductor's side in plain site, I can read it from here. That red button on the engineer's side is the "Cab Signal Acknowledge" button. Enlarge the picture to read the label.

 

The engineer moves the brake handle all the way forward to put the brakes in emergency, just like on any other automatic brake valve.

 

 

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

 

 

Amazing.Whistling

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:46 AM

Attention Overmod. Is this quote attributed to you?  "My practical running experience"

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:21 AM

243129

"I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. "

 

You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD.

 

 

No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2.

The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them.

30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L.

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Posted by ccltrains on Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:22 AM

Lets all sit down and take a deep  breath.  The name calling is not good and only makes enemies.  I have some railroad experience in the management side.  Done a few cab rides but in no way am I a novice let alone an expert on train operation.  I am a retired professional engineer (oil and gas) and can do some pseudo educated analysis but I would not post them as knowing what is going on.  I can talk about train operations to a person unfamiliar with them (my wife??) and she would think I am an expert.  A knowledgable person could really poke holes in my story so I keep my mouth shut.  Think we should wait for the professional analysis from the FRA to see what really happened.  STOP THE NAME CALLING!

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:28 AM

Good post from ccltrains.

Certainly we're all angry about this and so possibly what's going on here is just some old-fashioned venting of frustration.

At this point, really, what more is there to be said about this topic? 

Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath."

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Posted by oltmannd on Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:33 AM

Overmod

For those of you who may be interested, here is an 'official' P42 video with some elementary discussion of controls.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRValOA7TZo

The emergency application button is around 25 minutes in; I think it's intended as the 'assistant engineer's'  way to put the train in emergency, as it nominally does the same thing as the 'emergency' position on the engineer's blended brake controller does.  It releases by pulling.

 

An emergency brake valve on the "other" side of the cab is standard on all locomotives.  Might even be required in CFR...would have to look.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:01 AM

It is required per CFR. Also on full carbody engines an emergency valve must be in the end of the carbody.

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:35 AM

Randy Stahl

 

 
243129

"I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. "

 

You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD.

 

 

 

 

No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2.

The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them.

30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L.

 

You are referring to the posted image.

Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve?

No matter the emergency position is the same and does not require the engineer to "reach for a button".

 

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:37 AM

243129

 

 
Randy Stahl

 

 
243129

"I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. "

 

You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD.

 

 

 

 

No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2.

The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them.

30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L.

 

 

 

Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve?

 

 

Wabco equipment NEVER has the KNORR airbrake logo on it. 30 CDW is a WABCO product.

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:41 AM

Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve?

 

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:43 AM

Randy Stahl

 

 
243129

 

 
Randy Stahl

 

 
243129

"I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. "

 

You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD.

 

 

 

 

No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2.

The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them.

30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L.

 

 

 

Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve?

 

 

 

 

Wabco equipment NEVER has the KNORR airbrake logo on it. 30 CDW is a WABCO product.

 

Who ever said it did ???

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:46 AM

You did. You said it was 30CDW and it clearly isn't. It would have the WABCO logo on it if it did, not the KNORR logo. 

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:52 AM

Randy Stahl

You did. You said it was 30CDW and it clearly isn't. It would have the WABCO logo on it if it did, not the KNORR logo. 

 

Pay attention, I was not referring to the image.

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:59 AM

All this superfluous speculation aside, human error is the most likely cause. Medical events and terrorism/vandalism can be considered. Someone reported clear of the main line or someone assumed (perhaps the dispatcher) that the main line was clear and consequently #91 was released.

On my home road when manual block rules were substituted for ABS rules we were required to approach all facing point switches prepared to stop.

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:06 AM

No argument there. I agree that is likely the CSX crew left a fatal trap for an unsuspecting crew. 

Next time you are on a P42 look at the top portion of the blue card and you will discover the air brake type and schedule. I won't be able to find out until tomorrow.

 

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Posted by oltmannd on Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:11 AM

Randy Stahl

It is required per CFR. Also on full carbody engines an emergency valve must be in the end of the carbody.

 

Thanks!  Now, I don't have to look it up!

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by LithoniaOperator on Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:21 AM

Firelock76
Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath."

Totally. Just the act of standing at one's computer can cause lower back pain and make you cranky.

Wink

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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:49 PM

Randy Stahl

No argument there. I agree that is likely the CSX crew left a fatal trap for an unsuspecting crew. 

Next time you are on a P42 look at the top portion of the blue card and you will discover the air brake type and schedule. I won't be able to find out until tomorrow.

 

 

Any P-42 I have been on was equipped with the CDW-30 brake valve.

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Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Sunday, February 11, 2018 2:21 PM

LithoniaOperator

 

 
Firelock76
Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath."

 

Totally. Just the act of standing at one's computer can cause lower back pain and make you cranky.

Wink

 

Pain possibly even lower than that while sitting and reading certain threads!

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Posted by LithoniaOperator on Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:32 PM

ChuckCobleigh
Pain possibly even lower than that while sitting and reading certain threads.

Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:03 PM

243129

 

 
Randy Stahl

No argument there. I agree that is likely the CSX crew left a fatal trap for an unsuspecting crew. 

Next time you are on a P42 look at the top portion of the blue card and you will discover the air brake type and schedule. I won't be able to find out until tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

Any P-42 I have been on was equipped with the CDW-30 brake valve.

 

Perhaps it's been several yearssince you've been on a P42. They were rebuilt several years ago using TIGER grant money. At that time they were upgraded to this:

http://www.nyabproducts.com/ccb-26/

All of the P42s were upgraded as far as I know. I'll check the list tomorrow. The old P40s did have WABCO 30CDW. The P40s were also at that time equipped with the GE IFD displays which require an electronic airbrake to interface with, 30 CDW is NOT an electronic airbrake. 

 

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Posted by LithoniaOperator on Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:29 PM

The conductor’s widow’s lawsuit cites 28 safety issues with CSX and 9 with Amtrak. Is the public allowed access to such a complaint in a civil suit?

It would be interesting to see what these 37 points are. I believe that in such litigation, some (maybe many) points are real stretches, almost bargaining chips to give up in negotiation.

Perhaps we have an attorney or two out there to explain?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:03 PM

The trial record and any appeal proceedings will be published if the trial is held in South Carolina; I don't know if there is public-records access before then.  Mike Cella lived in Florida so it's possible some proceedings would be brought there. 

Presumably you can find the specific name of the action (e.g. Cella v. CSX Transportation).  In South Carolina multiple defendants are often subsumed under the name of the first one.  Suspect some of the relevant points of South Carolina law would follow JT Baggerly v. CSX Transportation, which to me has multiple similarities.

Personally I don't think we have any real business mucking around in the next-of-kin's lives.  It's pretty clear what the safety issues are without having to see what lawyers develop to capitalize on other people's pain. 

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