Why stop there? I have always believed it possible to connect EVERY continent in the world by rail *EXCEPT* Australia. Not sure how that could be done. In the 19th century there were plans, I believe, to connect Capetown, South Africa with Europe. Parts of that line were actually built but were never finished.
Another obvious intercontinental rail link would be North and South America. This would be one of the easiest and cheapest to build since no tunneling or bridges (save for over the Panama Canal) would be necessary.
What a terrible shame it is that more people from various lands can't get along with each other better. As human beings, that is probably our biggest curse. We don't get along with each other very well. Too bad. Until that changes these kinds of projects will be impossible.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Easy and cheap? Surely you jest. There may be no mountains or large bodies of water, but there's plenty of jungle, swamp and unstable ground. Have you ever read David McCullough's book on the building of the Panama Canal? It might change your mind.
Backshop Easy and cheap? Surely you jest.
Easy and cheap? Surely you jest.
No, not jesting, I was serious but also VERY relative. What I meant was "easy and cheap" compared with other intercontinental rail connections like at the Bering Strait. Obviously I was not talking about building a siding.
However, as I tried to say by paraphrasing, I don't believe any of these connections will ever happen 'cause too many separate countries would have to be involved and participate. I just don't understand how that can be made to happen.
-FMC
The Darien Gap in Panama and Colombia has precluded completing the Inter-American Highway between North and South America for decades. A rail connection would be even less likely, especially when you also consider the paucity of railroads in Central America.
Fred M CainAnother obvious intercontinental rail link would be North and South America. This would be one of the easiest and cheapest to build since no tunneling or bridges (save for over the Panama Canal) would be necessary.
You've never been there, have you? There are reasons why the Darien Gap has not been filled, even with Chinese money, and they are by no means limited to the wretched absence of meaningful rail-priority traffic between the regions on its borders... if you want to prioritize rail connections, the first thing you need to build is the equatorial high-altitude launch facility (and the expanded relatively low-grade railroad to connect it to the coast) and then develop the traffic that would justify new all-rail routing...
On the other hand, there is a very important project, with a very long track record as a high-priority opportunity, that you should embrace now, and take whatever steps you can to advocate, which will mean far more to world shipping than any North-to-South American railway through the jungle and mountains would. That would be some version of the Tehuantepec railway, which as far as I can see has not been very profitably realized only because various Mexican governments have wanted to make it an entirely-Mexican design/build/operate proposition. Panamax has eliminated much of the classical rationale for the project, but I'm sure you will see opportunities especially when compared with any other 'supercanal' project...
Having looked the Darien Gap up on Wikipedia, I understand that there are several reasons that it has not been crossed by even the Pan-American Highway.
For one matter, the Gap protects Central and North America from hoof-and-mouth disease (sad to say, there is nothing that can prevent foot-in-mouth-disease), which has not been found north of the Gap since 1954.
Johnny
Johnny,
After doing a half hours reading on the Darien gap it would seem to at least as challenging to complete a road or railroad through there as it was to construct the Panama Canal back in the 1880's before technological advances and how to control the mosquitos and Malaria were discovered. Still, many men died of disease during the construction of the canal, and I would expect it would be the same, even today, trying to build through the Darien.
One article I read by someone who had traversed the area said it was not only that it was a vast swampland but populated by species that are deadly to man. Those included not only the wildlife but the native flora that could be poisonous if touched. There's more but I will let others do their own research.
I would not want to be on the crew building a railroad through there. I'd rather take my chances with the bears and work on the railroad to Alaska.
Norm
I believe the railroad gap between Central and South America actually starts in Guatamala which seems to have a rail connection to Mexico but I do not think it has any to the countries South of their border. So you would have to build quite a ways to even reach Southern Panama. Then there is still the whole who owns Southern Panama business between Columbia and Panama which I am not sure is settled 100% yet.
As for closing the Darien Gap.......I don't think that would be a huge engineering issue it is only 60 miles. It might be expensive but engineering wise I suspect it can be bridged.
The problem I have though with that kind of project is the countries involved and governments involved are probably too much of a hassle to deal with. I think it would be a lot easier with just Russia and perhaps China and even before that project were to begin there would need to be significant political reform and change in Russia as well as China before Canada or the United States would even think of the rail project.
The directional shifts in this Thread's geography, are almost enought to give a reader literary whiplash.. IMHO. But it is a kind of interesting journey into the Continental 'Gaps' in North and South American railroading.
As to the South American Gap..'Darien, et al'. Why not consider the 'Gap' starting on the Mexican side? Since American railroading is represented in Southern Mexic oand also on the North/South Transverse in Panama ( ie: KCSdeM,[nee:TFM] and its cousin the PCRC operated in conjunction with Mi-Jac Ind.) A couple of maps might be appropriate:
And: Both from this link @
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=photos/Panama+Railroad/KCS+RR?&spell=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiF49OL3ofXAhXFRSYKHSpwBUIQBQgiKAA&biw=1280&bih=605&dpr=1.5#imgdii=B-46hxWHomqLhM:&imgrc=a3TzuCIyylBxrM:&spf=1508796921554
The paradox of Alaska is that even though it's the wild blue yonder and the last frontier, pretty much everywhere that humans settle there is almost always a valley. These valleys have serious air-quality problems.
The problems are both chronic and severe. So severe that there are restrictions on emissions, from visiting cruise ships to burning leaves. For that reason Alaska has its own a Division of Air Quality department.
http://dec.alaska.gov/Applications/Air/airtoolsweb/Advisories
There are exceptions, like parts of the Copper River delta and Cordova, but it's a very polluted place when it comes to air quality.
Politics is the least of the problems with the Darien Gap. It's more of a topography and climate issue. As mentioned in other posts, the area is almost uninhabitable by humans.
If I read properly, the boundary between Colombia and the former Colombian province of Panama was settled by treaty sometime in the 1920's.
I guess I misspoke on Guatemala's Railway system, they used to have a connection to Mexico but no more......the government really did a hari-kari number on the railway system in Guatemala............yikes!......Sad reading but again shows you how the various countries shifting politics would be a major obstacle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Guatemala
This project is good to have but there are other higher priorities. Believe that the money shoud go upgrading Amtrak routes including NEC and freight railroad routes that have Amtrak trains for faster service.
blue streak 1 This project is good to have but there are other higher priorities. Believe that the money shoud go upgrading Amtrak routes including NEC and freight railroad routes that have Amtrak trains for faster service.
Deggesty blue streak 1 This project is good to have but there are other higher priorities. Believe that the money shoud go upgrading Amtrak routes including NEC and freight railroad routes that have Amtrak trains for faster service. Yes; get the tracks surfaced. The track from Washington to Charlottesville is very rough--and a a good bit of the other tracks I rode in the past two weeks also could use some attention.
Yes; get the tracks surfaced. The track from Washington to Charlottesville is very rough--and a a good bit of the other tracks I rode in the past two weeks also could use some attention.
Remember Amtrak doesn't own or maintain the route from DC to Charlottesville, except for the tunnel from Union Station to the connection to CSX.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm with you on the Amtrak routes. But the sad fact is that all too often in America, the "other priorities" turn out to me more and bigger highways.
Amtrak's biggest problem and to me the greatest frustration of all is that it does not go nearly enough places and the few places it does go it doesn't go there often enough. How can that ever be changed? It's been like this since 1971 now (nearly a lifetime) and there is no major change in sight.
But, I diverge from the topic. I would support a rail link from the lower 48 states to Alaska if someone would ever build that. I suspect they might someday but we might see a greatly expanded Amtrak network first. In other words, don't hold you breath!
Regards,Fred M. Cain
Since the enticement of land grants no longer exists, there is almost no financial incentive to build a direct rail route to Alaska. The natural resources may be there, but the climate makes them difficult to extract and they are a long way from any markets.
A few years back a mining consortium developing metal ore extraction projects in the Yukon made a serious proposal to the corporate parent of the White Pass and Yukon regarding re-opening ore service on the line to move material to the to-be-rebuilt ore dock in Skagway. The ideas floated even included the possibility of dual gauging the WP&Y to allow full sized rolling stock and modern six axle locomotives to be used.
The parent company; Clublink, nixed the idea because they felt it would have too negative an impact on their tourist operation. Clublink's other business is owning and operating golk courses so they see themselves as a leisure and hopsitality provider and had no interes in entering into a joint venture to haul freight.
T
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
There were other Yukon mine projects besides the one on the WP&Y, but like that one, the associated rail line was to run from the mine directly to the nearest Pacific port, at right angles to any proposed Alaska link.
CMStPnP I guess I misspoke on Guatemala's Railway system, they used to have a connection to Mexico but no more......the government really did a hari-kari number on the railway system in Guatemala............yikes!......Sad reading but again shows you how the various countries shifting politics would be a major obstacle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Guatemala
Map of the FVG RR is linked here @ http://rrdc.com/images/map_fvg_new.gif
Here is a linked site from RDC's website, with their'story' @ http://rrdc.com/op_guatemala_fvg.html
Background In October 1997, a 50-year concession to restore and operate the Guatemalan rail system was awarded to RDC. The concession also included port facilities and the right to develop alternative uses for the right of way, such as pipelines and fiber optics.
Ferrovías Guatemala ("FVG"), formed by RDC and Guatemalan investors, was a 497-mile (narrow gauge) (800 km) railroad connecting Guatemala City with Mexico, El Salvador, and ports on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. After years of little maintenance, loss of traffic, invasion by squatters, the abandonment of operations in 1996, and the destruction caused by Hurricane Mitch in late 1998, commercial service was resumed on April 15, 1999 with a short-haul (60 km.) cement movement to El Chile. In December 1999 commercial service was restored to the Atlantic ports of Puerto Barrios and Puerto Santo Tomas. Subsequent phases of the rehabilitation project would involve restoration of service to Mexico and El Salvador.."
It is an interesting story of how an American Company attempted to rescue the National Railroad in Guatemala, and apparently, got shafted by a Central American Kleptocracy, in the bargain! <> They{RDC] eventually got their 82% value of FVG out of the Guatemalan Govt, after a five year court battle.
So, if we carry this "build it and they will come" theme far enough, we could conceivably ship a car from China to Chile. Or, we could put it on a ship and send it accross the Pacific Ocean in less time for less money.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding So, if we carry this "build it and they will come" theme far enough, we could conceivably ship a car from China to Chile. Or, we could put it on a ship and send it accross the Pacific Ocean in less time for less money.
One consistent theme that I'm starting to notice on this thread is that we're getting a lot of people's personal OPINIONS as why they either should or should not do this. I strongly believe that our opinions are completely irrelevent.
Someone, somewhere believes that it is a worthwhile goal because there IS in fact a plan. Why built such a thing? As I think I stated once before, the justifications for an Asia-North America rail link are provided on this website:
http://www.interbering.com
Instead of arguing amongst ourselves over the merits or flaws in such a plan, we might get a better idea of where this plan stands by contacting these people. (I might just do that if I find the chance).
Will it ever happen? I don't know but it just might. As I suggested once before, some people a long, long, long time ago had a really crazy idea: Build a rail tunnel under the English Channel. That was pretty crazy! The naysayers found all sorts of reasons and excuses as to why this is impractical and can't be done.
So, where is the English Channel tunnel project today? Case closed.
Fred M CainOne consistent theme that I'm starting to notice on this thread is that we're getting a lot of people's personal OPINIONS as why they either should or should not do this. I strongly believe that our opinions are completely irrelevent.
I agree - to a point. It may be a question of semantics, but perhaps some folks are drawing conclusions based on what they know. I know virtually nothing about this topic (which is why I haven't gotten involved), but I might draw a conclusion, based on what I learn here and any research I may decide to do.
It might be my opinion that building such a line is a great idea, but my conclusion is that the economics don't look good for such a project. When the economics look good, it might get built...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Huh? Forums were invented for people to express their opinions. It's all fine and well to say "gee, we ought to build a railroad to China". There's nothing wrong with having that opinion. Differing opinions might say "gee, that would take a lot of money and no one has yet been able to quantify what it would actually cost, how it would pay for itself and why the alternatives aren't better in the long run". It's easy to suggest that governments will just want to pitch in buckets of money, but that's not realistic. The country we live in is short on buckets right now. Yes, you can compare it to the Channel Tunnel which, other than having a train run through it, has very little to compare to this project. Even if you read the official promotional material on this project it seems to involve a lot of "build it and they will come" wishful thinking. We are now about 75 years past the building of the AlCan Highway. In that time we haven't built a railroad to Alaska. That alone should be a good indication of how investors and governments feel about it. But that's their opinion.
Before this discussion starts to descend into nastiness ... and I’m seeing some incipient language that makes me think it will, here is a potentially relevant parallel.
In discussions of the transport system in London, a word has been coined that has reached lower-case common-noun status: ‘crayonista’. This term applies to commenters who look at the London transport map, which has colored lines for the routes, and take crayons of corresponding colors to draw in where they think changes need to be made. Perhaps understandably this method of ‘planning’ is not particularly well respected by people who actually understand the construction and exigencies of the transit systems and infrastructure, and know that it is not as easy as the supposed ‘route planning’ of what was called the October Railway in the old USSR.
That’s not to say crayonista priorities are wrong. For a long time there was a comparatively small ‘discontinuity’ between ex-EL lines in northern New Jersey; it was expensive to connect that little section but it allowed great improvements in both measurable cost reduction and perceived service thereafter.
The issue isn’t that the Darien Gap can’t be “conquered” - there were as I recall similar arguments over the Panama Canal after the colossal de Lesseps fiasco there — it is whether the much-more-massive-than-it-seems effort to do that with a railroad can be economically justified within any cost-effective timeframe, and provide compellingly better service quality than existing or practical alternatives. It is not any kind of excuse for ‘build it and they will come’ both because there‘s no one to come and there’s ‘no there there’ for the anticipated traffic. And the class of ‘opinion’ concerned with recognition of complex present fact, when designing complex systems or responses to problems, is different from opinions held ‘just because someone thinks someone needs to build something’.
That said: this is America, I am not only not the forum police but not a mod. What I want to nip in the bud is seeing this follow the Bucky business into ‘poster discontent’.
Fred M Cain ... ... I strongly believe that our opinions are completely irrelevent. ... Regards, Fred M. Cain
...
... I strongly believe that our opinions are completely irrelevent.
And yet you offer one and expect us to to remain silent unless we agree with you.
Irony...
I will note that 75 years after the Alaska Highway was built there is still no volume pressure to make it a four lane divided freeway, even though it is the sole land transport route. Shipping by water remains the cheapest option where one leg is of considerable length and there is a bit of flexibility in elapsed time.
The highway was justified and built for strategic military reasons. Lacking another war a railroad will have to be justified on economic grounds; unfortunately that seems to be sadly lacking.
Overmod Before this discussion starts to descend into nastiness ... and I’m seeing some incipient language that makes me think it will, here is a potentially relevant parallel.
Murphy Siding Speaking for myself, if I sounded nasty to anyone I apologize. I'll work on softening the edges.
Speaking for myself, if I sounded nasty to anyone I apologize. I'll work on softening the edges.
Norris,
I don't ever recall you posting anything offensive.
cx500 I will note that 75 years after the Alaska Highway was built there is still no volume pressure to make it a four lane divided freeway, even though it is the sole land transport route.
I will note that 75 years after the Alaska Highway was built there is still no volume pressure to make it a four lane divided freeway, even though it is the sole land transport route.
This project does not appear economically feasible now. But Intra Alaska and Alaska - lower 48 & Canada traffic would seem to not be priority unless in the future raw materials become scare in other locations except Alaska. It would be the very long haul traffic Asia <> North America and some central america.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.