NIMBY or NIMLR?

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NIMBY or NIMLR?
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, October 05, 2017 7:33 AM

Yikes!

http://www.11alive.com/news/local/train-derails-crashes-into-house-in-nw-atlanta/480954811

190 car CSX train derails and crashes into house.  Not In My Living Room?

 

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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, October 05, 2017 8:35 AM

Faulty urban planning...Looks like CSX buys a house unless there is a culprit car issue with a lease car.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:09 AM

I would not want to be that trainmaster in the morning making that call to Jacksonville.  Hello Mr VP we owe someone in Atlanta a new house as we put a gondola thru theirs last night thanks to EHH and his 19K monsters we now run.  

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Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Thursday, October 05, 2017 12:57 PM
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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, October 05, 2017 1:33 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
I would not want to be that trainmaster in the morning making that call to Jacksonville.  Hello Mr VP we owe someone in Atlanta a new house as we put a gondola thru theirs last night thanks to EHH and his 19K monsters we now run.  

In the overall scheme of railroading - 14 car derailment is no big deal.  Jacksonville was informed within 30 minutes of the happening.  Who knows when EHH was notified - but it wasn't by the TM on the scene.

         

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, October 05, 2017 7:07 PM

IIRC the recent CSX derailment at the bottom of the Sand Patch grade also impacted a house.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, October 06, 2017 7:32 AM

MidlandMike

IIRC the recent CSX derailment at the bottom of the Sand Patch grade also impacted a house.

 

Hunter Hates Houses!

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, October 06, 2017 1:17 PM

ChuckCobleigh

 
Reminds me of a picture of the ET&WNC narrow guage RR  about 7 miles out of Elizabethton, Tn. that had a house built around the tracks.
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Posted by n012944 on Friday, October 06, 2017 6:43 PM

Shadow the Cats owner

I would not want to be that trainmaster in the morning making that call to Jacksonville.  Hello Mr VP we owe someone in Atlanta a new house as we put a gondola thru theirs last night thanks to EHH and his 19K monsters we now run.  

 

 

If you bothered to read the article, it stated the train was two miles long, or around 1000ft.  That length makes sense, since that region has limited manifest trains to 10000ft.

 

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of an E.H.H. rant from someone not involved with the railroad?  It seems that is what every CSX thread on this site boils down to these days.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, October 06, 2017 9:43 PM

n012944
 
Shadow the Cats owner

I would not want to be that trainmaster in the morning making that call to Jacksonville.  Hello Mr VP we owe someone in Atlanta a new house as we put a gondola thru theirs last night thanks to EHH and his 19K monsters we now run.  

 

 

 

 

If you bothered to read the article, it stated the train was two miles long, or around 1000ft.  That length makes sense, since that region has limited manafest trains to 10000ft.

 

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of an E.H.H. rant from someone not involved with the railroad?  It seems that is what every CSX thread on this site boils down to these days.

 

         IT seems that the Long Train/Short Train argument will be with us for some time; not only on CSX, but elsewhere as well...That 'train length' , would seem to be only a tool in the 'tool box' necessary to run a railroad(?)

          Can't speak to recent times, but when I retired, the Trucking Industry, used its Insurance exposures as a tool to manage risk in the 'sea' of Legal Justice, to help 'manage' its legal outcomes. 

         A company would use its history, to determine the amount of exposure, to sell its operational risks for a fiscal year. The amount decided on then became a figure to bid out to an insurance company, for that period of time.    At that point, the insurance brokerage company, through a network of adjusters, would dispatch one of those 'trained' adjusters to the scene of an incident to manage it for the trucking company. [ that included making decisions as to how it was 'cleaned up',how the media/press was delt with on the scene]. The thought being, that no one could be quoted, as an employee of the company involved. [ie: an employee who was wearing a company logo on their clothing, could not be shown on a news broadcast: pr represented as a 'representative' of that Company. Drivers were informed, that they were to make no public comentaries.]

               Thus, the owning carrier, had a better position 'IF' there were following Legal/Court actions. The adjuster on the scene was just a 'tool' doing a job at that location; and not representative of the involved company.   

          I have noticed, over time, that when a rail envolved accident happens, the 'spokesperson' on a scene, who is represented, on camera, by a media type. Will always be introduced as a spokesperson; and that individual always appears, wearing their [railroad] mandated safety gear, and is always given credit as speaking for a specific railroad.   Maybe, the railroad feels 'safer', having their own Legal Staff on their payrolls?  My 2 Cents 

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, October 06, 2017 10:14 PM

samfp1943
 
n012944
 
Shadow the Cats owner

I would not want to be that trainmaster in the morning making that call to Jacksonville.  Hello Mr VP we owe someone in Atlanta a new house as we put a gondola thru theirs last night thanks to EHH and his 19K monsters we now run.   

If you bothered to read the article, it stated the train was two miles long, or around 10000ft.  That length makes sense, since that region has limited manafest trains to 10000ft. 

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of an E.H.H. rant from someone not involved with the railroad?  It seems that is what every CSX thread on this site boils down to these days. 

         IT seems that the Long Train/Short Train argument will be with us for some time; not only on CSX, but elsewhere as well...That 'train length' , would seem to be only a tool in the 'tool box' necessary to run a railroad(?)

          Can't speak to recent times, but when I retired, the Trucking Industry, used its Insurance exposures as a tool to manage risk in the 'sea' of Legal Justice, to help 'manage' its legal outcomes. 

         A company would use its history, to determine the amount of exposure, to sell its operational risks for a fiscal year. The amount decided on then became a figure to bid out to an insurance company, for that period of time.    At that point, the insurance brokerage company, through a network of adjusters, would dispatch one of those 'trained' adjusters to the scene of an incident to manage it for the trucking company. [ that included making decisions as to how it was 'cleaned up',how the media/press was delt with on the scene]. The thought being, that no one could be quoted, as an employee of the company involved. [ie: an employee who was wearing a company logo on their clothing, could not be shown on a news broadcast: pr represented as a 'representative' of that Company. Drivers were informed, that they were to make no public comentaries.]

               Thus, the owning carrier, had a better position 'IF' there were following Legal/Court actions. The adjuster on the scene was just a 'tool' doing a job at that location; and not representative of the involved company.   

          I have noticed, over time, that when a rail envolved accident happens, the 'spokesperson' on a scene, who is represented, on camera, by a media type. Will always be introduced as a spokesperson; and that individual always appears, wearing their [railroad] mandated safety gear, and is always given credit as speaking for a specific railroad.   Maybe, the railroad feels 'safer', having their own Legal Staff on their payrolls?  My 2 Cents 

Railroads carry 'Catastrophic' insurance.  I don't know what the 'deductable' is, however I suspect it is $100M or more.  For everything under the level of the deductable, the railroad is self insured.

         

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, October 07, 2017 7:09 AM

samfp1943
I have noticed, over time, that when a rail envolved accident happens, the 'spokesperson' on a scene, who is represented, on camera, by a media type. Will always be introduced as a spokesperson; and that individual always appears, wearing their [railroad] mandated safety gear, and is always given credit as speaking for a specific railroad. 

This happens in public safety as well.  Most larger fire and police departments have Public Information Officers who deal with the press.  The top brass only comes on camera for the really big stuff.  Even smaller agencies may have someone who usually does all the talking.  Saves you from getting some guy who doesn't really want to be on camera (which often shows).

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Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:46 AM

BaltACD wrote the following post[in part] 

"...Railroads carry 'Catastrophic' insurance.  I don't know what the 'deductable' is, however I suspect it is $100M or more.  For everything under the level of the deductable, the railroad is self insured..."

    There is a provision in the Federal Motor Carrier Rules that provides[in the case of Motor Carriers] that at, or above a certain 'value level'(?) ,they are allowed to become self-insured.        I do not remember those specific numbers, but many 'medium' or 'large' carriers that qualify, do carry an insurance policy that might be classified as a 'catastrophic' coverage.[ Generally, on a per single incident basis(?)]. I would imagine that that coverage would be based on the size of the carrier, and would be in increments,most probably, of a million dollars, or any part there of. Depending upon the individual carrier's insurance/protective strategy.

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 07, 2017 9:17 AM

Whatever the mix of self-insurance vs. commercial coverage might be, it should be quickly remembered that Consolidated Freightways, one of the largest motor carriers, essentially ceased to be in less than a week when part of their coverage was terminated.  According to their CFO (who was a friend, and who would know) they preferred terminating runs immediately to running the risk of even one major accident paid for out of ‘self-coverage’. 

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, October 07, 2017 1:29 PM

 

It gets back to that age old question about how close to a moving freight train you can stand and still be safe.    

 

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Saturday, October 07, 2017 1:54 PM

It is a rumor that I have heard from several sources that part of the reason why Knight was just bought by Swift was due to an accident they had a few years back.  Here is the case basics and what the Judge did to them.  From what my boss heard their Insurance compaines that handled their Cat Insurance said YOYO idiots and threw them under the bus in this one.  https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20110224a09 

It is some good reading if you want.  

 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:55 PM

It was a lawsuit that put a well-known and well respected fire apparatus manufacturer out of business after a firefighter fell off one of their trucks.  One key factor was a railing that the manufacturer normally installed around the back of the cab.  The lawyers questioned why, if firefighters weren't supposed to stand up and hang on to said railing, was it installed in the first place?  Apparently that resonated with the jury, who found for the plaintiff.  

And that, my friends, is why you can no longer buy Pirsch fire apparatus.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:56 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
It is a rumor that I have heard from several sources that part of the reason why Knight was just bought by Swift was due to an accident they had a few years back.  Here is the case basics and what the Judge did to them.  From what my boss heard their Insurance compaines that handled their Cat Insurance said YOYO idiots and threw them under the bus in this one.  https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20110224a09 

It is some good reading if you want.  

Trucking companies - even the biggest - don't have the capitalization and financial resources of Class 1 railroads.  A single mildly catastrophic incident can bankrupt a trucking company with ease.  With a Class 1 railroad - not so much.

While the Lac Magnetic incident did cause the financial failure of the MM&A - it was not a Class 1.  It was a short line, already operating on a wing and a prayer as evidenced by the engine failure that led to the catastrophic chain of events.

         

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Posted by Norm48327 on Saturday, October 07, 2017 3:20 PM

tree68

It was a lawsuit that put a well-known and well respected fire apparatus manufacturer out of business after a firefighter fell off one of their trucks.  One key factor was a railing that the manufacturer normally installed around the back of the cab.  The lawyers questioned why, if firefighters weren't supposed to stand up and hang on to said railing, was it installed in the first place?  Apparently that resonated with the jury, who found for the plaintiff.  

And that, my friends, is why you can no longer buy Pirsch fire apparatus.

Larry,

That suit, and I'm sure others, are why firefighters are now required to ride in enclosed cabs. In the sixties tail-boards were acceptable; no more.

Norm


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Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:03 PM

Shadow the Cats owner

It is a rumor that I have heard from several sources that part of the reason why Knight was just bought by Swift was due to an accident they had a few years back.  Here is the case basics and what the Judge did to them.  From what my boss heard their Insurance compaines that handled their Cat Insurance said YOYO idiots and threw them under the bus in this one.  https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20110224a09 

It is some good reading if you want.  

 

 

WOW! Thanks for posting that link STC's owner Thumbs Up Interesting link; I had wondered what had happened to Knight Trans, and why they had 'disapppeared so quickly'. 

           They were a 'neighbor' of Swift Trans. in Phoenix, and after reading the posted link, I can understand why many of their trailers were' scrubbed of their logos', and are running in somebody's TOFC pool service. See them regularly, riding on BNSF TOFC moves through here. That Swift Trans. ( Moyes&Co(?). 'bought' them out, would seem to be a no-brainer; I'd bet that the price was a fire-sale bargain; and that Knight's equipment got de-identified PDQ tells a whole other story. I have seen from time to time over the last few years, equipment from the company I worked for 16 years ago, after they 'Swiftly' were bought out.Whistling

   IMHO, the crux of Knight's legal problems, and ultimate demise was a situation  of their own making.    A driver's Log Book in a court, is sacrosanct information. Particularly, when it is used as an exhibit in a court, and found to be  falsified to cover a fatality accident. 

           Qualcomm messages are normally recorded in a Company's main frame, they are deleted at a preset intervals, unless they are flagged by 'Safety' as important testimony for a pending case. Truck mounted Qualcom units ' report locations, on a 'regular' schedule; when they are used to pass messages between drivers and dispatch; each message, in that case is 'located'.  Qualcom units can be disabled by a driver, but it is essentially inoperable at that point. In this case, the driver did not disable it; he drove it to a 'home area' abandoning it; which allowed Knight Trans to track its location, and recover the tractor.

        As to the front tire replacement, it was noted in the replacement work order that the front tires were replaced, and the used carcasses were 'buffed' off. A precursor action to having the carcass recapped, for re-use by the owner, Knight Trans. Recapping front tires; is a common industry practice, to get the maximum useability out of an expensive tire carcass.. 

                As to the driver 'fleeing the scene', it was a complete violation of many company's work rules...Normally, a cause for immediate termination.   There  seems to be 'culpability' at many levels of the trucking company organization, IMHO.  I am sort of surprised that there were apparently, no jail sentences handed out(?).    

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:18 PM

A driver participating in three different classes of cars in our National Championships was 'sponsored' by Knight Transportation.

         

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:37 PM

mudchicken

Faulty urban planning...Looks like CSX buys a house unless there is a culprit car issue with a lease car.

 

"Faulty urban planning"? I hope that was sarcasm considering the architecture of the house suggests it is 50-100 years old and the location appears to be the "rural suburbs" at best.......

I would not have to spend more than 20 mins to take pictures of 100 houses or similar structures along the tracks here in northeastern Maryland.....most have been there 50 to 120 years.

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, October 08, 2017 12:02 PM

ChuckCobleigh beat me to it, but this is a cute variation on the theme, with a live demonstration!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRz22Imjut4

Courtesy of the "Silver Rail Club" and "Classic Toy Trains."

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, October 08, 2017 12:23 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
mudchicken

Faulty urban planning...Looks like CSX buys a house unless there is a culprit car issue with a lease car.

 

 

 

"Faulty urban planning"? I hope that was sarcasm considering the architecture of the house suggests it is 50-100 years old and the location appears to be the "rural suburbs" at best.......

I would not have to spend more than 20 mins to take pictures of 100 houses or similar structures along the tracks here in northeastern Maryland.....most have been there 50 to 120 years.

Sheldon

 
 

So what is the solution to prevent trains from hitting houses? 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, October 08, 2017 1:25 PM

Euclid

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
mudchicken

Faulty urban planning...Looks like CSX buys a house unless there is a culprit car issue with a lease car.

 

 

 

"Faulty urban planning"? I hope that was sarcasm considering the architecture of the house suggests it is 50-100 years old and the location appears to be the "rural suburbs" at best.......

I would not have to spend more than 20 mins to take pictures of 100 houses or similar structures along the tracks here in northeastern Maryland.....most have been there 50 to 120 years.

Sheldon

 
 

 

 

So what is the solution to prevent trains from hitting houses? 

 

Well, I'm not suggesting we see how many new houses we can build right up against the tracks, but I'm not going to usurp the property rights of existing property owners and tell them they have to move so we can tear down their houses either.

Has all levels of common sense been given over to the nanny state?

How often does this happen? lots of buildings, houses, structures of all sort are near railroad tracks. All pose risks to people during derailments.......My daughter and grandchildren live 150' from the Northeast Corridor, as AMTRAK trains wiz by at 88 mph........I don't fear for their safety......

I know, every railroad right of way should include a 1/4 mile buffer of open land on each side to avoid possible injury or property damage in a derailment. Passengers will be required to stay outside the 1/4 buffer zone until the train comes to a complete stop. No train traffic will be allowed to pass parked trains while passengers are in the buffer zone for boarding. 

Just like the grade crossing question, build a bridge at every driveway and rural road, and while we are at it, make all those bridges as long a span as possible so derailments under them run little risk of damaging the bridge or effecting the traffic above..........

We don't have that much money.......... 

Sheldon
 
PS - a thought about "risk" - riding in a car on a public highway is at the top of the list, I do that everyday. Removing all risk is impossible........

    

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Posted by samfp1943 on Sunday, October 08, 2017 1:48 PM

Firelock76

ChuckCobleigh beat me to it, but this is a cute variation on the theme, with a live demonstration!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRz22Imjut4

Courtesy of the "Silver Rail Club" and "Classic Toy Trains."

 

TOO FUNNY! LaughLaugh A tip o' the Kromer Cap to You (Firelock76), and ChuckCobleigh!

   Had not heard that song in years....Whistling The Silver Rail Club/Gang did a beautiful job on that video. Thumbs UpThumbs Up

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, October 08, 2017 2:07 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
Euclid

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
mudchicken

Faulty urban planning...Looks like CSX buys a house unless there is a culprit car issue with a lease car.

 

 

 

"Faulty urban planning"? I hope that was sarcasm considering the architecture of the house suggests it is 50-100 years old and the location appears to be the "rural suburbs" at best.......

I would not have to spend more than 20 mins to take pictures of 100 houses or similar structures along the tracks here in northeastern Maryland.....most have been there 50 to 120 years.

Sheldon

 
 

 

 

So what is the solution to prevent trains from hitting houses? 

 

 

 

Well, I'm not suggesting we see how many new houses we can build right up against the tracks, but I'm not going to usurp the property rights of existing property owners and tell them they have to move so we can tear down their houses either.

Has all levels of common sense been given over to the nanny state?

How often does this happen? lots of buildings, houses, structures of all sort are near railroad tracks. All pose risks to people during derailments.......My daughter and grandchildren live 150' from the Northeast Corridor, as AMTRAK trains wiz by at 88 mph........I don't fear for their safety......

I know, every railroad right of way should include a 1/4 mile buffer of open land on each side to avoid possible injury or property damage in a derailment. Passengers will be required to stay outside the 1/4 buffer zone until the train comes to a complete stop. No train traffic will be allowed to pass parked trains while passengers are in the buffer zone for boarding. 

Just like the grade crossing question, build a bridge at every driveway and rural road, and while we are at it, make all those bridges as long a span as possible so derailments under them run little risk of damaging the bridge or effecting the traffic above..........

We don't have that much money.......... 

Sheldon
 
PS - a thought about "risk" - riding in a car on a public highway is at the top of the list, I do that everyday. Removing all risk is impossible........
 

I am just asking as a practical question.  The railroad owns their corridor, and the adjacent homeowners own their lots.  Each has a right to occupy their land, and no right to occupy each other's land.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, October 08, 2017 3:12 PM

Euclid

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
Euclid

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
mudchicken

Faulty urban planning...Looks like CSX buys a house unless there is a culprit car issue with a lease car.

 

 

 

"Faulty urban planning"? I hope that was sarcasm considering the architecture of the house suggests it is 50-100 years old and the location appears to be the "rural suburbs" at best.......

I would not have to spend more than 20 mins to take pictures of 100 houses or similar structures along the tracks here in northeastern Maryland.....most have been there 50 to 120 years.

Sheldon

 
 

 

 

So what is the solution to prevent trains from hitting houses? 

 

 

 

Well, I'm not suggesting we see how many new houses we can build right up against the tracks, but I'm not going to usurp the property rights of existing property owners and tell them they have to move so we can tear down their houses either.

Has all levels of common sense been given over to the nanny state?

How often does this happen? lots of buildings, houses, structures of all sort are near railroad tracks. All pose risks to people during derailments.......My daughter and grandchildren live 150' from the Northeast Corridor, as AMTRAK trains wiz by at 88 mph........I don't fear for their safety......

I know, every railroad right of way should include a 1/4 mile buffer of open land on each side to avoid possible injury or property damage in a derailment. Passengers will be required to stay outside the 1/4 buffer zone until the train comes to a complete stop. No train traffic will be allowed to pass parked trains while passengers are in the buffer zone for boarding. 

Just like the grade crossing question, build a bridge at every driveway and rural road, and while we are at it, make all those bridges as long a span as possible so derailments under them run little risk of damaging the bridge or effecting the traffic above..........

We don't have that much money.......... 

Sheldon
 
PS - a thought about "risk" - riding in a car on a public highway is at the top of the list, I do that everyday. Removing all risk is impossible........
 

 

 

I am just asking as a practical question.  The railroad owns their corridor, and the adjacent homeowners own their lots.  Each has a right to occupy their land, and no right to occupy each other's land.

 

And the practical answer is that if I buy/rent a house next to the tracks then I understand that it comes with noise, vibration, risk of derailment, dirt, diesel exhaust, etc.

If the railroad fails to keep their trains on their property, we have a world full of lawyers and insurance companies, as is being discussed above.

Likewise if I fail to keep my pets, children, livestock, power boat on a trailer, etc, etc, off the railroads property, I subject myself to additional risk for which I will be responsible.....

If any of these risks/responsibilities are unacceptable to me, I am free to live elsewhere.....

I live on a busy two lane state highway that makes pulling out of my driveway more dangerous than if I lived in a quiet subdivision court. I understand and accept that risk, and the noise of the added traffic, and the added risk stopping to make a left turn into my driveway, and the added risk doing my yardwork along the front edge of my property.

If I step out in the street in front of a car while edging my lawn and get hit, that is my fault.

If a car leaves the roadway and comes onto my yard and hits me, it's his fault.

There is clearly a higher chance of that happening on my street than in a quiet subdivison - I understood that difference when I bought the property.

But I choose to live here:

   

Rather than in a place where one house looks just like the next......

I made my choices and accepted the risks.....I am a grown up.......

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, October 08, 2017 6:30 PM

Sheldon, that's a beautiful old house you have, I'm jealous!  Probably has a nice big basement perfect for an O gauge layout too.  That turret looks like it'd make a perfect reading room as well.

And thanks Sam!  "Silver Rail Club" has a number of posted videos on the "Classic Toy Trains" site.  Just head over there, click "Reader Videos" and start having fun.

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  • From: Maryland
  • 6,541 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:46 PM

Firelock76

Sheldon, that's a beautiful old house you have, I'm jealous!  Probably has a nice big basement perfect for an O gauge layout too.  That turret looks like it'd make a perfect reading room as well.

And thanks Sam!  "Silver Rail Club" has a number of posted videos on the "Classic Toy Trains" site.  Just head over there, click "Reader Videos" and start having fun.

 

Thank you for the kind words.

Actually the basement, while big, is not the best place for model trains, low headroom, pipes, ducts, etc.

My model trains, HO scale, are in the second floor of the detached garage that you can see the corner of on the left side ofthe picture.

That building has a heated and cooled finished 2nd floor train room 22' x 40'.

But my model building workshop is in the basement of the house.....

The house was built in 1901, we purchased it in 1995 and did major restoration which took three years. The house is located in a small rural village that was once a stop on the Ma & Pa RR. The tracks ran right behind the house about a 1/4 mile back. The 1914 station is about 10 houses from us.

Sheldon

    

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