daveklepper . . . Pullman porters were called George simiply because it was George Pullman that started the company and for no other reason. Never heard them called "boy" by any passenger, ever. I don't recall any Pullman porter saying he resented being called George.
- PDN.
NKP guy After all, as Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good."
After all, as Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good."
[quote user="Paul_D_North_Jr"]
Apparently some did, because a traveling salesman started an association named something like "Society for the Prevention of Calling Pullman Porters "George". My source is Stewart Holbrook's The Story of American Railroads. If it wasn't so late and I didn't have so much else to do, I'd go and look it up and cite it chapter and verse. Maybe after the AREMA conference next week . . .
[/quote above]
Always willing to learn.
Paul_D_North_Jr daveklepper . . . Pullman porters were called George simiply because it was George Pullman that started the company and for no other reason. Never heard them called "boy" by any passenger, ever. I don't recall any Pullman porter saying he resented being called George. Apparently some did, because a traveling salesman started an association named something like "Society for the Prevention of Calling Pullman Porters "George". My source is Stewart Holbrook's The Story of American Railroads. If it wasn't so late and I didn't have so much else to do, I'd go and look it up and cite it chapter and verse. Maybe after the AREMA conference next week . . . - PDN.
WikipediaThe Society for the Prevention of Calling Sleeping Car Porters "George" (SPCSCPG) was founded as a joke by lumber baron George W. Dulany in 1914. Membership was open to all those whose first or last name was George. Its first president was Admiral George Dewey, and George Ade was another early member. Dulany's secretary filled out and mailed more than 45,000 membership cards to people named "George" throughout the world, before Dulany retired from public life. At the time, railway sleeping car porters in the United States were commonly referred to by the name "George" regardless of their actual name. The appellation may have stemmed from the name of George Pullman of the Pullman Company, which at one time manufactured and operated a large proportion of all the sleeping cars in North America. Porters were almost exclusively black, and the practice presumably derived from the old custom of naming slaves after their masters, in this case porters being regarded as servants of George Pullman. Although the SPCSCPG was more interested in defending the dignity of its white members, than in achieving any measure of racial justice, it nevertheless had some effects for all porters. In 1926 the SPCSCPG persuaded the Pullman Company to install small racks in each car, displaying a card with the given name of the porter on duty. Of the 12,000 porters and waiters then working for Pullman, only 362 turned out to be named George. At its peak, the society had 31,000 members. It claimed to include several prominent Georges as members, such as King George V of the United Kingdom, American baseball player George Herman "Babe" Ruth, and French politician Georges Clemenceau.
At the time, railway sleeping car porters in the United States were commonly referred to by the name "George" regardless of their actual name. The appellation may have stemmed from the name of George Pullman of the Pullman Company, which at one time manufactured and operated a large proportion of all the sleeping cars in North America. Porters were almost exclusively black, and the practice presumably derived from the old custom of naming slaves after their masters, in this case porters being regarded as servants of George Pullman.
Although the SPCSCPG was more interested in defending the dignity of its white members, than in achieving any measure of racial justice, it nevertheless had some effects for all porters. In 1926 the SPCSCPG persuaded the Pullman Company to install small racks in each car, displaying a card with the given name of the porter on duty. Of the 12,000 porters and waiters then working for Pullman, only 362 turned out to be named George.
At its peak, the society had 31,000 members. It claimed to include several prominent Georges as members, such as King George V of the United Kingdom, American baseball player George Herman "Babe" Ruth, and French politician Georges Clemenceau.
So the reality of the Society is that it didn't eminate from the angst of the Pullman Porters, but from those individuals who weren't Porters but had George in their name.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul_D_North_Jr My source is Stewart Holbrook's The Story of American Railroads.
Excerpt from The Story of American Railroads: From the Iron Horse to the Diesel Locomotive by Stewart H. Holbrook (1947)
The favorites of porters are the professional traveling men, the so-called drummers. They know good service and how to appreciate it. They are usually reasonable in all things and make little trouble. Their tips aren't the largest, but the porter can always bank on a tip and know it will be the regulation amount. Among the drummers, however, as among other classes of travelers, is a pseudo-sophisticated male who addresses all porters as "George" which he seems to believe is an extremely witty reminder of George Mortimer Pullman.*
*The late George M. Dulany (white), a midwest lumberman, did a good deal to eliminate “George” as a generic name for porters. He accomplished this by the wide publicity accorded his Society for the Prevention of Calling Pullman Porters George, a no dues lodge Mr. Dulany carried on for many years at his own expense and to his vast enjoyment. He told me once that he had “converted” more than 10,000 Americans to his contention that Pullman porters should be addressed as Porter and not as George. Today, only congenital hicks use “George.”
CSSHEGEWISCH NKP guy After all, as Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good." I wish that some jazz aficianados and critics would remember this quote. There seems to be an increasing amount of cultural snobbery associated with this art form.
It seems most people refer to "jazz snobs", when today it seems most comdemnation trickles down from heavy metal fans. This really comes into view on such matters as the NFL's annual choice of halftime performers at the Super Bowl. The message boards become full of displeased hard rockers, who lambast any music outside their chosen genre as "lame".
When you get into defining what is good and bad music, you open Pandora's Box.
Many folks are cocooned into specific genres, with little tolerance for anything else.
If you use the technical complexity of a specific piece of music, you get into a measurable definition of good and bad. But then if you throw in freedom of expression, all technical aspects of the music are moot.
The best way I can describe it is that American society increasingly prefers McDonalds hamburgers to filet mignon. Take that for what it's worth.
It is hard to satisfy everyone. Given the circumstances I think the editors did rheir best.
Norm
https://findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi/bit.ly/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=132527377
The Clinton Herald, May 15, 1959
http://www.iagenweb.org/boards/clinton/obituaries/index.cgi?read=175841
George W. Dulany, 82, who until he moved to La Jolla, Calif., in the mid 1940's was prominent in Clinton civic and business circles and nationally known for his leadership in the lumber industry, died yesterday in a Hong Kong hospital. Mr. and Mrs. Delany were on a trip to the Orient when the former Clintonian fell and broke his leg. Pneumonia and other complications which set in during the ensuing two weeks caused his death. Funeral services will be held in Hong Kong, after which the body will be brought back to the United States for burial in Hannibal, Mo. Before leaving this city, Dulany served for many years as chairman of the board of directors of the Eclipse Lumber Co. and of the Climax Engineering Co. after he had played a key role in the organization of both firms. His civic activities in Clinton were many and varied. He is generally credited with being one of the moving forces behind the organization of the Clinton Chamber of Commerce and was one of the men who helped finance the erection of the former Clinton Coliseum building. He was an active worker in the Boy Scout movement and served on several occasions as a member of the national committees. At the peak of his business career he maintained an interest in a number of other lumber and engineering companies scattered throughout the United States. During NRA days he served as industrial advisor to the Retail Lumber Code adminstrator. On the lighter side Dulany formed several national fun organizations, including the famous "Society for Prevention of Calling Sleeping Car Porters 'George'", the "Lumbermens Concatenated Order of Hoo Hoo" and the "Guild of Former Pipe Organ Pumpers." At one time or another, he was associated with virtually every major civic organization in Clinton. He was one of the few men ever to have served twice as president of the Clinton Chamber of Commerce, was a life member of the American Red Cross and at one time was active in the Community Federation. He maintained membership in numerous national and midwest lumber and social organizations, being particularly interested in the Chicago Historical society and Iowa State Historical society. Local social memberships included those of Rotary, Country club, Elks and Engineers. Fraternally he was affiliated with Scottish Rite Consistory, York Rite Masons and Kaaba Shrine. Mr. Dulany was born in Fort Scott, Kan., on July 11, 1877, the son of George W. Dulany and the former Fannie Williams. He was educated in the Hannibal, Mo., public schools, attended the Missouri Military Academy, was graduated from Phillips Academy at Andover, Mass., and Yale University. He married Katherine McDonnell on Aug. 17, 1901 and she preceded him in death. His surviving widow is the former Blanche E. Horst, whom he married Aug. 9, 1940 in Nashua. He first became interested in the lumber business in Minnesota at the turn of the century. In 1904, along with Frank Ward, he organized the Eclipse Lumber Co. and moved to Clinton six years later. In 1914 he helped organize and served as the first president of the Climax Engineering Co. For a number of years he resided in Chicago so that he could better administer his far-flung interests, but returned to Clinton in 1938. His military record spanned 2 wars, Mr. Dulany was a seaman in the Spanish-American War in 1898 and a captain in the 126th field artillery during World War I. He was an officer in both the Minnesota and Iowa National Guard units preceding World War I and was largely instrurmental in getting a guard unit assigned to Clinton. The extent of his interests is indicated by the fact that five years ago he appeared on a "This is Your Life" program because of his familiy's long-standing support of the Piney Woods School, one of the world's outstanding Negro educational institutions. Surviving are his wife; one sister, Mrs. Clifton Lingo of Dallas, Tex., and two grandchildren, Dave Dulany of Clinton and Susan of New York City.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QEn6KWcMZIAC&pg=PA94&dq=%22piney+woods+school%22++%22george+w+dulany%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje4e7m6qLWAhWqllQKHWyjCJIQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=%22piney%20woods%20school%22%20%20%22george%20w%20dulany%22&f=false
Just a short note and "Thanks" to Mike (wanswheel)
Many of us do appreciate your help with our "Continuing Education"! Interesting stuff, and certainly,most probably, not covered in most of our formal studies.
samfp1943Just a short note and "Thanks" to Mike (wanswheel) Many of us do appreciate your help with our "Continuing Education"! Interesting stuff, and certainly,most probably, not covered in most of our formal studies.
I couldn't agree more.
Mike is one of the treasures of this forum.
"...for a little silver quarter we can have the Pullman porter turn the lights down low..."
Here ya' go folks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMdEqB-TB8g
Bringin' a little rail theme music back here.
Firelock76"...for a little silver quarter we can have the Pullman porter turn the lights down low..." Here ya' go folks! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMdEqB-TB8g Bringin' a little rail theme music back here.
Unique set for the scene. Fairly accurate representation of a section sleeper.
Great stuff...I'd say we all had our act together pretty darn good back then.
cat992c Some very famous music was missed out.Make that totally ignored.
Some very famous music was missed out.Make that totally ignored.
One thing that I found unfortunate is that there was absolutely no mention made of "Ragtime". "Ragtime" hit its zenith in popularity between about 1898 and WWI. That is also the same time period that the so-called "Golden Age" of railways hit its peak.
Scott Joplin wrote a piece called The Great Crush Collision March. This piece is technically not a true "rag" 'cause it's unsycopated. The piece tried to memorialize the event where the MKT ran two locomitive head-on into each other as a public relations event. As some of you probably know, the event backfired because some people ended up getting hurt. Joplin tried to set this to piano music.
Some Ragtime fans have speculated as to whether or not Joplin could've actually been there. That seems unlikely but we just plain don't know. At any event, the cover for the sheet music clearly stated "Dedicated to the MK&T Railroad" or words to that effect. As I type this, I don't have the piece in front of me at the time.
I have personally wondered as to whether or not Joplin liked trains. That seems very possible but we don't know. As a Midwestern itinerent piano player, he traveled extensively throughout the Midwest, often on the train.
One sad tragedy of Joplin's life is that so little is known about him. There's a guy by the name of Ed Berlin who has studied Joplin's life extensively and written TWO books about him (I have them both). But there are still a lot of blanks.
Joplin suffered from extreme racism in a time that America was very much still a racist, white supremicist society. It was a true tragedy because there can be no doubt, Joplin was truly a great man and a great American.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M Cain I have personally wondered as to whether or not Joplin liked trains. That seems very possible but we don't know. As a Midwestern itinerent piano player, he traveled extensively throughout the Midwest, often on the train.
Welcome aboard, Mr. Cain!
What a great question! Talk about thinking of things from another's perspective!
Frankly, I don't know anything factual about Scott Joplin's affinity for trains, but I think it's likely he didn't care much for the entire train travel experience. Probably from the moment he stepped onto railroad property, even in the Midwest, until the moment he left the station and hit the street, it was clear to him that he was a second class passenger at best. For example, how welcome do you think Mr. Joplin would have been in a Pullman car? Would the clerks at the station who were supposed to sell him a ticket be disinterested when it came to his race? How welcome was he in the dining car?
Remember, there's a great deal of evidence that discimination and segregation by race was practiced by the railroads as long as there have been railroads.
Not to be overly-dramatic, but I feel embarrassed, even ashamed as a railfan, when I see Jim Crow coaches. I still say that the essay, "When Jim Crow Rode the Rails" is the best essay I've ever read in Trains, not least because it addressed a situation that 99% of railroad literature ignores.
Also, and probably not related, ever notice how white of a hobby railfanning is?
That's a darn good piece of music Mr. Joplin wrote!
I suppose you don't hear much ragtime nowadays as it's a bit archaic to modern ears, really an aquired taste. And of course it was overshadowed by jazz as the 20th Century got under way.
The last person I'm aware of who did anything with ragtime was a British musician named Ian Whitcomb, I bought one of his albums at least 45 years ago. Good stuff too!
About 20 years ago he put out an album of music from the White Star Line songbook, much of it ragtime as well.
NKP guy Fred M Cain I have personally wondered as to whether or not Joplin liked trains. That seems very possible but we don't know. As a Midwestern itinerent piano player, he traveled extensively throughout the Midwest, often on the train. Welcome aboard, Mr. Cain! What a great question! Talk about thinking of things from another's perspective! Frankly, I don't know anything factual about Scott Joplin's affinity for trains, but I think it's likely he didn't care much for the entire train travel experience. Probably from the moment he stepped onto railroad property, even in the Midwest, until the moment he left the station and hit the street, it was clear to him that he was a second class passenger at best. For example, how welcome do you think Mr. Joplin would have been in a Pullman car? Would the clerks at the station who were supposed to sell him a ticket be disinterested when it came to his race? How welcome was he in the dining car? Remember, there's a great deal of evidence that discimination and segregation by race was practiced by the railroads as long as there have been railroads. Not to be overly-dramatic, but I feel embarrassed, even ashamed as a railfan, when I see Jim Crow coaches. I still say that the essay, "When Jim Crow Rode the Rails" is the best essay I've ever read in Trains, not least because it addressed a situation that 99% of railroad literature ignores. Also, and probably not related, ever notice how white of a hobby railfanning is?
To NKP Guy, and Mr. Fred Cain;[ Not wishing to pick a fight with either of you.] I would posit to you both as well as to others here that the racial animus was not solely a "railroad thing";but a reflection of the whole society of those times. It is, my opinion, unfair to 'tag it' just to the railroads; while paying no attention to the social and societal constructs that existed in the aftermath of the Civil War, and post War periods of those trying times in this Country.
Here is a photo of the L&N Jim Crow Combine #665 as it looked on tour with the restored L&N locomotive 'General'in the early 1960's @ http://www.railpictures.net/photo/369293/
Along with that, is a link to the Smithsonian.com site, displaying an open- window, Coach of the period of the early 20th Century of Southern Rwy. Heritage. Interesting and self-explanatory. Linked @ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/segregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383/
It seems to follow that the music of those times would also reflect both personally and positively, their lives and times. Recall also that in those 'tween times, our American population was also 'on the move'. From South to North, particularly, that migration was from the the rural South to the upper Midwest; aided by the presence of the railroads. Name several of them: GM&O, L&N, ICRR are several right off the bat. Roads that terminated in Chicago, Detroit for starters.
The ICRR's, all coach, day train, City of New Orleans;it was a particularly favored route out of the deep South to the manufacturing jobs in Chicago, and Milwaukee. Chronicled in this Thread by the afore mentioned song " The City of New Orleans"
It is the History of this Country that has made us who we are; we need to remember how we have arrived at this time in our History.
Though the movie was not really about travel by rail, "The Sting" had a trip from New York City to Chicago by train--and Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer" was played continually throughout the movie.
Johnny
I rode in one of the Southern's divided coaches once, and I was the only passenger in it, so I had an excellent opportunity to explore it. One end had two normal-sized washrooms, the other end had a small washroom on each side of the aisle.
As a musician (piano/vocals) who plays a lot of music from the 30's and 40's, I routinely change lyrics that are racially offensive today. Why offend people? This kind of music is supposed to be fun, not make political statements.
I note that one of the songs that didn't make the Train's list is "Mother's Lying in a Box in the Baggage Coach Ahead".
Fred M Cain cat992c Some very famous music was missed out.Make that totally ignored. One thing that I found unfortunate is that there was absolutely no mention made of "Ragtime". "Ragtime" hit its zenith in popularity between about 1898 and WWI. That is also the same time period that the so-called "Golden Age" of railways hit its peak. Scott Joplin wrote a piece called The Great Crush Collision March. This piece is technically not a true "rag" 'cause it's unsycopated. The piece tried to memorialize the event where the MKT ran two locomitive head-on into each other as a public relations event. As some of you probably know, the event backfired because some people ended up getting hurt. Joplin tried to set this to piano music. Some Ragtime fans have speculated as to whether or not Joplin could've actually been there. That seems unlikely but we just plain don't know. At any event, the cover for the sheet music clearly stated "Dedicated to the MK&T Railroad" or words to that effect. As I type this, I don't have the piece in front of me at the time. I have personally wondered as to whether or not Joplin liked trains. That seems very possible but we don't know. As a Midwestern itinerent piano player, he traveled extensively throughout the Midwest, often on the train. One sad tragedy of Joplin's life is that so little is known about him. There's a guy by the name of Ed Berlin who has studied Joplin's life extensively and written TWO books about him (I have them both). But there are still a lot of blanks. Joplin suffered from extreme racism in a time that America was very much still a racist, white supremicist society. It was a true tragedy because there can be no doubt, Joplin was truly a great man and a great American. Regards, Fred M. Cain
I, by the way, concur in the view that Joplin was one of the truly great American musical composers.
As an aside, William "Crush" was the general passenger agent for the MKT and was the person responsible fo setting up the "collision" event the piece refers to.
Falcon48 Fred M Cain cat992c Some very famous music was missed out.Make that totally ignored. One thing that I found unfortunate is that there was absolutely no mention made of "Ragtime". "Ragtime" hit its zenith in popularity between about 1898 and WWI. That is also the same time period that the so-called "Golden Age" of railways hit its peak. Scott Joplin wrote a piece called The Great Crush Collision March. This piece is technically not a true "rag" 'cause it's unsycopated. The piece tried to memorialize the event where the MKT ran two locomitive head-on into each other as a public relations event. As some of you probably know, the event backfired because some people ended up getting hurt. Joplin tried to set this to piano music. Some Ragtime fans have speculated as to whether or not Joplin could've actually been there. That seems unlikely but we just plain don't know. At any event, the cover for the sheet music clearly stated "Dedicated to the MK&T Railroad" or words to that effect. As I type this, I don't have the piece in front of me at the time. I have personally wondered as to whether or not Joplin liked trains. That seems very possible but we don't know. As a Midwestern itinerent piano player, he traveled extensively throughout the Midwest, often on the train. One sad tragedy of Joplin's life is that so little is known about him. There's a guy by the name of Ed Berlin who has studied Joplin's life extensively and written TWO books about him (I have them both). But there are still a lot of blanks. Joplin suffered from extreme racism in a time that America was very much still a racist, white supremicist society. It was a true tragedy because there can be no doubt, Joplin was truly a great man and a great American. Regards, Fred M. Cain I play the "Great Crush Collission March". It's very likely that the sheet music version is not the way Joplin actually played it. It lends itself very well to being "ragged", which is undoubtedly what Jopin did when he played it. Remember that this piece was published before ragtime became popular (and saleable as sheet music), so it's not surprising that the sheet music version wasn't "ragged". I, by the way, concur in the view that Joplin was one of the truly great American musical composers. As an aside, William "Crush" was the general passenger agent for the MKT and was the person responsible fo setting up the "collision" event the piece refers to.
cat992c Some very famous music was missed out.Make that totally ignored. One thing that I found unfortunate is that there was absolutely no mention made of "Ragtime". "Ragtime" hit its zenith in popularity between about 1898 and WWI. That is also the same time period that the so-called "Golden Age" of railways hit its peak.
I play the "Great Crush Collission March". It's very likely that the sheet music version is not the way Joplin actually played it. It lends itself very well to being "ragged", which is undoubtedly what Jopin did when he played it. Remember that this piece was published before ragtime became popular (and saleable as sheet music), so it's not surprising that the sheet music version wasn't "ragged".
Firelock76 That's a darn good piece of music Mr. Joplin wrote!I suppose you don't hear much ragtime nowadays as it's a bit archaic to modern ears, really an aquired taste. And of course it was overshadowed by jazz as the 20th Century got under way.
That's a darn good piece of music Mr. Joplin wrote!I suppose you don't hear much ragtime nowadays as it's a bit archaic to modern ears, really an aquired taste. And of course it was overshadowed by jazz as the 20th Century got under way.
I’m not sure I’d say that Ragtime is archaic. But it does live in a very narrow sort of never-never land in the music world. The sound of Ragtime is much too “classic” for most people’s ears. In a way it is almost more sophisticated that Jazz in that Ragtime is composition-oriented intended to be largely played as written.
On the other hand, the sound of Ragtime is just not quite sophisticated enough to appeal to people who are more interested in serious European art music such as Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, etc.
So the result is that Ragtime has a rather small following. It is hardly dead, though. There are a number of clubs around the country which promote Ragtime and stage concerts. One that I am particularly aware of is the “Friends of Scott Joplin” in Missouri.
http://www.friendsofscottjoplin.org/index.html
Another complication is that there are a number of styles of Ragtime. One of the greatest piano players could well have been James P. Johnson. He played a later style of Ragtime known as “Eastern”. It was just a bit more “jazzy” and was extremely virtuosic.
One nice tune he recorded on a piano roll was Railroad Man. (Which also helps me bring this post back on topic). It is extremely difficult and is largely above my piano playing abilities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv0earMsqQk
I also got to thinking that one of the biggest contemporary promoters tags himself as “Perfessor Bill Edwards”. He maintains a web site that goes to great length to leave no stone unturned regarding the history and development of Ragtime.
It is a big site and if there is anyone on our forum with an interest in the Ragtime genre, you could probably spend most of the day in there!
http://www.perfessorbill.com/
Enjoy!
Fred M Cain
Fred M Cain Another complication is that there are a number of styles of Ragtime. One of the greatest piano players could well have been James P. Johnson. He played a later style of Ragtime known as “Eastern”. It was just a bit more “jazzy” and was extremely virtuosic. One nice tune he recorded on a piano roll was Railroad Man. (Which also helps me bring this post back on topic). It is extremely difficult and is largely above my piano playing abilities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv0earMsqQk
http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/catalog/levy:059.027
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann And Rag-time, shameless music!
Nice piece of music, that "Railroad Man."
You know, it put me in the mood to go looking for a saloon and getting myself a nice, cold frosty one!
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