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U.P.Milwaukee Sub Signals going to approach type?

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 11:18 AM

jeffhergert
Approach lighting isn't an indication of PTC.

That's where I was trying to go....  

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Posted by gebass6 on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 3:35 PM

I took another look at the dark signals.

This time I looked for PTC installation.It's funny what you'll find when you know what to look for.

https://postimg.org/image/f7uqh0z0b/

 

https://postimg.org/image/skre66wpd/

PTC IS installed on the Milwaukee sub.

I just didn't know what to look for.

But not all the PTC signals are dark

All the signals for the siding at Park City are lit.

As are the interlocking signals at Upton Jct.

So I still wonder.Why are two signals dark?

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 4:04 PM

gebass6
So I still wonder.Why are two signals dark?

Are they control point (CP)/interlocking, or are they automatics - simply indicating occupancy of the track ahead?

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Posted by gebass6 on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 4:22 PM

Automatic.ABS.

Change of topic.

Early this morning I learned about a derailment in my area.

I thought it was on C.P. because of so much maintenace equipment on the C.P. C&M.

I was wrong!

It's on the U.P. Milwaukee sub!

At K.O. junction!

4 miles south of the MP 34.14 dark signal!

At Deerpath Rd. and Skokey Valley Rd.(Route 41)

The Milw sub is the second set of tracks west of the lake.

(The blue line is the Kenosha sub and has Metra commuter)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake-forest/news/ct-six-freight-cars-derail-in-lake-forest-no-injuries-reported-20170315-story.html

https://s11.postimg.org/oy70qo4gz/K_O.jpg

 

 

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Posted by aegrotatio on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 11:28 PM

I first noticed dark signals when waiting at Secaucus Junction for the Main Line.  The signals would stay lit for a while, then traffic passes, then after a few minutes they turn off.

 

Is this what "approach lit" means?  I thought it was some sort of energy/bulb saver, but with LED lamps even that seemed unnecessary.

 

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Posted by gebass6 on Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:14 AM

aegrotatio

I first noticed dark signals when waiting at Secaucus Junction for the Main Line.  The signals would stay lit for a while, then traffic passes, then after a few minutes they turn off.

 

Is this what "approach lit" means?  I thought it was some sort of energy/bulb saver, but with LED lamps even that seemed unnecessary.

 

 

Long before LED.

Approach lit was used to conserve power.

The signals are off(dark)until a train is in the area.

If a train is coming toward you and is several blocks away,the lights would be off.

As I gets into a closer block,the signal facing you goes to yellow.

As it enters the block behind the signal,it drops to red.

As the train passes you,the signal turns off.

Unless there is another train following in the distance.

 

If a train is coming from behind you several blocks,the signal ahead of you will be off.

As the train gets closer it turns green.

As the train passes the signal ahead of you,it turns red.

As the train moves rarther out of the signal block,it shouts off.

Constant lit are always on.

A green shows an unoccupied block

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Posted by K. P. Harrier on Thursday, March 16, 2017 8:19 AM

aegrotatio (3-15):

Approach lit signals typically are lit anytime a train is WITHIN the signal block, with each signal having insulated joints in the rails for that signal.  Note the whitish insulated joint under the ‘lucky’ UP 8888 at CP SP841 PIEDRA on the Sunset Route in Arizona.

That UP 8888 was a tail end DPU unit on a train in the siding.  (The train didn’t completely fit in the siding and hung into the CP interlocking).  When the train started out of the siding at the far end (moving rightward in the above photo) and onto the mainline again the pictured signal remained lit until the tail end was past the signal at the far end of the siding.

That is the basic concept of approach lit.  BNSF has a slight variation of the concept, with some of their signals turning on if the DS lines a train into the CP even though the train may be 50 miles away.

Take care,

K.P.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 16, 2017 8:23 AM

P______1_______P_____2_______P______3______P______4________P___<

<is a train moving in that direction.
P is a signal facing the train

In this representation the Signal the protects Block 4 is lit - In this instance it will display Clear because of no train ahead.  When the train, in it's entirety, passes the signal it will go out unless there is another train in that particular block.  By passing the signal protecting Block 4 the circuit is activated that turns ON the signal protecting Block 3, signals protecting Blocks 2 & 1 remain OFF. 

If the signals at these locations are bi-directional - the signal for the Opposite directon that would be protecting the unspecified Block 5 (where the train is) would be DARK until the train passed the signal and entered Block 4, it would then display the condition of Block 5 (with the rear of the train being in Block 5 the signal would display its most restricive indication)

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Posted by RME on Thursday, March 16, 2017 12:27 PM

aegrotatio
Is this what "approach lit" means? I thought it was some sort of energy/bulb saver, but with LED lamps even that seemed unnecessary.

When I was "commuting" between Shreveport and Los Angeles in the mid-'90s I would often pace then-SP freights on the Sunset Route and watch the behavior of the approach lighting.  You could clearly see the 'ripple' of green signals come on ahead of the train, then turn red as the train passed them.  I find I can't remember how quickly they went out, but ISTR they stayed red for some distance behind the rear of the train, letting me know I was overtaking a train before I got there.

 

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Posted by timz on Thursday, March 16, 2017 12:35 PM

On many (most?) single-track ABS-not-CTC lines, approach-lit signals would light long before a train is in the block on either side of the signal.

Siding A is miles west of Siding B. An eastward train nears the west end of siding A; the westward signal there is lit red, and the westward signal at the east end is lit yellow, and all the approach-lit westward signals to the west end of siding B are lit yellow. When the eastward train has passed siding A, all the westward signals are lit red.

 

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:32 PM

The variations are going to be endless.  The bottom line is that an approach-lit signal is only going to be lit when there's someone there to see it.  No trains, no lights.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by timz on Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:37 PM

tree68
an approach-lit signal is only going to be lit when there's someone there to see it.

If it lights, there's usually a train somewhere. But a westward signal can light up when no train is anywhere east of it.

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Posted by gebass6 on Thursday, March 16, 2017 5:33 PM

OK.

Update on the derailment at K.O.

I drove by the site early this morning on the way to work.

I expected to see light plants lighting up the site.

But there weren't any.

There seemed to be a work train at the site.Too dark.

So I drove by again after work.

It's directly across from a Chevy dealership on Rt 41.

There were a group of wrecked molten sulphur tank cars on the east side of the main.

It was an eastbound train out of Butler.

It derailed almost a mile north of the Lake sub switch.

The news said that 11 cars had derailed.

So it seems that the "walking wounded" had been taken away.

There were no hazmat leaks and the main is now open.

Likely with speed restrictions.

So coal trains to Oak Creek would not have been afected.

Derail crews sure work fast!

 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:52 PM

tree68

The variations are going to be endless.  The bottom line is that an approach-lit signal is only going to be lit when there's someone there to see it.  No trains, no lights.

 

Unless a rail breaks, or something else causes the signal block to think it's occupied.

Jeff

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Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM

gebass6

I took another look at the dark signals.

This time I looked for PTC installation.It's funny what you'll find when you know what to look for.https

https://postimg.org/image/f7uqh0z0b/

 

https://postimg.org/image/skre66wpd/

PTC IS installed on the Milwaukee sub.

I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger).
 
In my 40+ years on the UP, there were only two times the Milwaukee sub hosted any passenger trains. One was way back in the 1970s or '80s, when a derailment at the north end of Waukegan neccetated the commuter trains from Kenosha to go west on the KD sub from Kenosha to Bain, then south on the Milwaukee sub to KO where they headed back north to Waukegan to get passengers.
 Waukegan Coal Derailment
 
The other time was when flooding in central Wisconsin caused the northbound Empire Builder to detour on the Milwaukee sub from Chicago to Butler during a severe storm.
Amtrak Detour During Intense Storm
 (Photo taken at Pleasant Prairie 6/27/2008)
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Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 17, 2017 6:48 AM

jeffhergert
Unless a rail breaks, or something else causes the signal block to think it's occupied.

Yep.

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, March 17, 2017 2:52 PM
Was this C&NW cab signaled territory? I noticed they left the existing signal poles. Maybe this an upgrade to conform with the rest of the system.
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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, March 17, 2017 5:44 PM

Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM

 

 

 

I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger).
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I noticed on the link someone provided to UP's PTC map that there are some lines that I wouldn't think would require PTC.  I'm thinking that they may be getting ready for one person crews on lines equipped with PTC.
 
I'm not thinking necessarily through FRA or other Government fiat, but through future contract provisions with the unions.  I believe with the current politcal situation, the railroads feel confident on what they can get in future contracts.  Whether through negotiated or imposed conditions.
 
Jeff
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Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 17, 2017 7:39 PM

Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like?  The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 17, 2017 8:03 PM

jeffhergert
Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM
I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger).
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I noticed on the link someone provided to UP's PTC map that there are some lines that I wouldn't think would require PTC.  I'm thinking that they may be getting ready for one person crews on lines equipped with PTC.
 
I'm not thinking necessarily through FRA or other Government fiat, but through future contract provisions with the unions.  I believe with the current politcal situation, the railroads feel confident on what they can get in future contracts.  Whether through negotiated or imposed conditions.
 
Jeff

Can't see it being through negotiated conditions.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, March 17, 2017 9:26 PM

BaltACD

 

 
jeffhergert
Posted by zardoz on Friday, March 17, 2017 4:58 AM
I can't imagine why the UP would install PTC on a line that runs maybe 8 trains per day (and NONE of them are passenger).
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I noticed on the link someone provided to UP's PTC map that there are some lines that I wouldn't think would require PTC.  I'm thinking that they may be getting ready for one person crews on lines equipped with PTC.
 
I'm not thinking necessarily through FRA or other Government fiat, but through future contract provisions with the unions.  I believe with the current politcal situation, the railroads feel confident on what they can get in future contracts.  Whether through negotiated or imposed conditions.
 
Jeff

 

Can't see it being through negotiated conditions.

 

Me neither.

Jeff

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, March 17, 2017 9:36 PM

tree68

Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like?  The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready.

 

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0358

From the above link:

With limited exceptions and exclusions as described within Subpart I potentially available, PTC is required to be installed and implemented on Class I railroad main lines (i.e., lines with over 5 million gross tons annually) over which any poisonous- or toxic-by-inhalation (PIH/TIH) hazardous materials are transported; and, on any railroad’s main lines over which regularly scheduled passenger intercity or commuter operations are conducted.  It is currently estimated this will equate to approximately 70,000 miles of track and will involve approximately 20,000 locomotives.

Jeff

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Posted by oltmannd on Saturday, March 18, 2017 7:40 AM

jeffhergert

 

 
tree68

Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like?  The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready.

 

 

 

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0358

From the above link:

With limited exceptions and exclusions as described within Subpart I potentially available, PTC is required to be installed and implemented on Class I railroad main lines (i.e., lines with over 5 million gross tons annually) over which any poisonous- or toxic-by-inhalation (PIH/TIH) hazardous materials are transported; and, on any railroad’s main lines over which regularly scheduled passenger intercity or commuter operations are conducted.  It is currently estimated this will equate to approximately 70,000 miles of track and will involve approximately 20,000 locomotives.

Jeff

 

...and those routes are "locked down".  That is, if traffic flow changes occur and a certain route is now below the threshold, you can't take PTC coverage off that route.

There was one round of changes where routes with little to no TIH traffic were excluded from the PTC map, but that's it.

 

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by gebass6 on Saturday, March 18, 2017 7:53 AM

tree68

Are there not types of traffic that require PTC, such as those that carry TIH or the like?  The line near me might see six or seven trains a day at any one point - yet I'm pretty sure it's PTC ready.

 

Is molten sulphur considered TIH?

 

 

 

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Posted by zardoz on Sunday, March 19, 2017 9:25 PM

rdamon
Was this C&NW cab signaled territory? I noticed they left the existing signal poles. Maybe this an upgrade to conform with the rest of the system.
 

rdamon, this was never cab-signaled territory, nor was it ever ATS territory; it was ABS-only for as long as I remember. Indeed, it still has hand-throw switches at meeting points Bain and Siding K (between Gurnee and St. Francis).

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, March 19, 2017 9:34 PM

gebass6
Is molten sulphur considered TIH?

Don't believe it is.  It's not on this list.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by gebass6 on Monday, March 20, 2017 6:10 PM

I as I drove home from work I thought I might drive by the old former E.J.& E yard in Waukegan to see if C.N has started ripping up the track.

I drove down South ave and crossed the U.P. Kenosha sub.

The south facing signal is dark.

 

 

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