UP's Kenefick approached the RI twice about becoming "best friends" at Council Bluffs and Kansas City. RI demurred. Why nobody involved with RI's management then knows.
Provo about then approached UP. They then became best friends.
During the hostile takeover attempt, before it was known that UP/Blackstone/CNW management had fended off Japonica, UP took out a 3 or 5 year option to buy the IAIS. UP had inspected the IAIS a few years before when the CNW had been threatened to be shut down by a strike. There had been plans, if the strike lasted any length of time, for UP to temporarily reroute trains over IAIS. The strike didn't last, and no UP trains ever detoured to my knowledge.
Jeff
jeffhergert I don't think UP held much, if any, stake in CNW until the late 1980s/early 90s after the hostile takeover attempt of CNW by Japonica Partners. There wasn't too much love between them in the 1960s. Larry Provo smoothed things over and renewed their relationship in the 1970s. Jeff
I don't think UP held much, if any, stake in CNW until the late 1980s/early 90s after the hostile takeover attempt of CNW by Japonica Partners. There wasn't too much love between them in the 1960s. Larry Provo smoothed things over and renewed their relationship in the 1970s.
You're right. I assumed UP held a stake for sometime prior to. Had to do some digging. UP 's initial ownership was 29.5% in 1988. Then bought out Blackstones 70.5% stake in 1994. I imagine inevitable since UP footed the bill for CNW to gain access to the PRB.
I've wondered if things might have turned out differently if UP got the Rock. Though CNW did have the valuable Missouri Valley bypass around Omaha, and just as good if not better access into Chicago. I could still see both ending up in UP's camp however.
I read somewhere that UP was ready to buy the IAIS if the CNW deal fell through.
Anyone have thoughts on the years ago proposal of KCS buying the SP?
One last item.. I watching an interview with former CEO Rob Krebs. He mentioned one of the reasons they proposed merger with CN back in 1999. Was to block CN from getting KCS. CN was looking at the property before it's acquisition of the IC.
charlie hebdo Overmod While we are in the 'all things were possible' discussions of line combinations following release of Federal Control, we should at least look at labor's contribution: the Plumb plan. It would have been very interesting. Aside from that, how about CNW + B&O?
Overmod While we are in the 'all things were possible' discussions of line combinations following release of Federal Control, we should at least look at labor's contribution: the Plumb plan.
While we are in the 'all things were possible' discussions of line combinations following release of Federal Control, we should at least look at labor's contribution: the Plumb plan.
It would have been very interesting.
Aside from that, how about CNW + B&O?
Considering UP held a stake in CNW for quite sometime. You probably would be looking at a 3-way merger. UP+CNW+B&O=Union Pacific.
Would've have been a great route for perishables to the East Coast.
I confess those two would have been an interesting combination. But then who would moneybags C&O choose to marry or be married to?
And which combo would the various Family Lines "rally behind"?
CatFoodFlambe With the benefit of 50 years of hindsight, I wonder if Burlington Northern wishes they'd have gone after Kansas City Southern instead of the Frisco?Of course, KCS was not an attractive propery in the early 1970's, and the importance of traffice to and from Mexico was not apparent in those today.
With the benefit of 50 years of hindsight, I wonder if Burlington Northern wishes they'd have gone after Kansas City Southern instead of the Frisco?Of course, KCS was not an attractive propery in the early 1970's, and the importance of traffice to and from Mexico was not apparent in those today.
Frisco was the right call for BN. PRB Coal was flowing to the Southeast along with a growing manufacturing base. As well the Frisco has a much better route to the gulf than KCS. Even with KCS having a nice amount of online business between KC and Shreveport. The line is unattractive from an operating standpoint.
What one thing to be mindful of going forward is the change in trading patterns. It will take some time to reconfigure from AsiaPac. However the South with its cheap land and lower labor cost. Would be the winner if near/onshoring happens in a much more rapid pace over the next decade. Projects are already in progress in Mississippi, and Alabama.
Looking back in the thread while we are talkng about hindsight.. The mention of MP-SOU-BN merger is very intriuging. I'll add CN to this pack. Let's make it BN-CN-MP-SOU. Include a portion of NdeM(Laredo-Mexico City).. Not only would this road handle Mexican-US-Canada traffic that currently travels these fallen flags lanes today. They would have gotten a jump start on NAFTA. Also provided a strong CANAMEX trade corridor currently emerging between Mexico and Western Canada.
SD70Dude But selling BC Rail to CN was a big mistake, perhaps it should have been privatized into joint ownership just like NAR had been, maybe even into thirds with BNSF owning a share as well.
But selling BC Rail to CN was a big mistake, perhaps it should have been privatized into joint ownership just like NAR had been, maybe even into thirds with BNSF owning a share as well.
Pre-Conrail, there was a proposal for competition: The PC would become Conrail and Reading, LV, CNJ, LHR would become the Mid Atlantic Rail Corp One plan added the EL to make it MARC-EL. Between the government not wanting to subsidize two railroads, union issues, and politics. this was a non-starter. Would one of the western lines been more likely to acquire MARC-EL to access the east?
Santa Fe - MOP - CI&P
Twin Cities to the Gulf - Memphis to Amarillo Via OKC - KC to Tucumcari (2nd route) Chicago to Denver via Omaha - St Louis to KC
Uncle JakeHow about Northern Alberta Railways combined with BCRail. This would have provided competition for CP and CN for moving grain to Vancouver, BC, and also would have had somewhat large amounts of mineral and oil traffic.
Northern Alberta was never a truly independent company, it was always owned 50/50 by CN and CP. But selling BC Rail to CN was a big mistake, perhaps it should have been privatized into joint ownership just like NAR had been, maybe even into thirds with BNSF owning a share as well.
Interestingly, there was a proposal in the 1950s for NAR to dieselize its passenger service with Budd RDCs and initiate through passenger service with PGE at the same time. But it never happened.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
And then you could combine the MP/Sou railroad with BN to make a true transcontinental, to be known as Burlington Southern.
I am going back to early to mid 70s and would have pulled the trigger on a MoPac-Southern merger.
True, it would not have been transcontinental, but that was not going to occur at that time. The merger would have resulted in:
1. Crossing Mississippi 3x - St. Louis, Memphis, and New Orleans.
2. Two developing regions of the country.
3. A powerhouse of operational managers - Jenks at MoPac and the entire team at Southern were outstanding but might not have allowed a dominant personality in the boardroom.
4. Chicago! MoPac was already there with C&EI route via St. Louis and Thebes. Southern could have turned the corner at Mt. Vernon, Il and headed north. Also access to BN at Centralia, Il to provide SE/NW service.
5. Very strong balance sheets and income statements. Diverse commodities with just enough coal but high revenue petrochemicals.
6. Good route structures.
7. "Look Ahead Look South (west)"
ed
George Gould's Wabash-Pittsburg Terminal (no "g" in those days!) turned out to be an expensive project to build and costly to operate. Extension to Connellsville didn't happen until 1931, practically the last new big railroad in the East and the reason those bridges over the Mon and Yough look so modern with their K-trusses, the cat's meow of Roarin' 20's bridge design. How did traffic projections on that line do? WM surprised me in 1976 by going extinct as in hiking trail; never thought THAT would happen. Family vacationed some weekends at the Ohiopyle House; ca. 1960 the B&O ran a frieght every 15 minutes and the WM every 45.
BCRail got completed too late, either 1952 or 1956 all the way to Vancouver for the Province's Great Expense, the Prince George Eventually: The Pacific Great Eastern (sort of like Brunel's ship but on rails--even tho' BCRail finally did VERY well in my own lifetime!).
I've wondered that one (B&O + Chicago & Alton) too. I've never come across a good history on the B&O. I have the 1946 Moody's Manual and the tragic tale of the remains of the C&A for the B&O in lost millions--and lots of good merger talk involving the grainger roads that never went anywhere. KCS was involved in merger ideas left and right. The other Big One with B&O: its 1930 acquisition at sky high prices of not only the BR&P but also the reorganized Buffalo & Susquehanna. Just in time for the dropoff in the central Pennsylvania coal fields!
Just for yucks, I would have liked to have seen Great Northern, CB&Q and Southern.
It might have been an end-to-end-to-end merger that would have gotten past the ICC, since it was avoiding the Northeast, and in the long term, with the shift of population to the South and the dramatic decline of the Northeast, would have proven to be a valuable franchise.
The shift to containerization, along with a railroad that could take commercial goods from Seattle-Tacoma all the way to consumer groups in the South woud likely have proven to be profitable, and may have even spurred Puget Sound into becoming the largest port area for containers.
Always interesting to ask "what if".
BEAUSABRE Thank you, it never occured to me just to look up "ICC"! To fan the flames, here is the "Ripley" Plan Boston and Maine Railroad; Maine Central Railroad; Bangor and Aroostook Railroad; Delaware and Hudson Railway New Haven Railroad; New York, Ontario and Western Railway; Lehigh and Hudson River Railway; Lehigh and New England Railroad New York Central Railroad; Rutland Railroad; Virginian Railway; Chicago, Attica and Southern Railroad Pennsylvania Railroad; Long Island Rail Road Baltimore and Ohio Railroad; Central Railroad of New Jersey; Reading Railroad; Buffalo and Susquehanna Railroad; Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway; 50% of Detroit, Toledo and Ironton Railroad; 50% of Detroit and Toledo Shore Line Railroad; 50% of Monon Railroad; Chicago and Alton Railroad (Alton Railroad) Chesapeake and Ohio-Nickel Plate Road; Hocking Valley Railway; Erie Railroad; Pere Marquette Railway; Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad; Bessemer and Lake Erie Railroad; Chicago and Illinois Midland Railway; 50% of Detroit and Toledo Shore Line Railroad Wabash-Seaboard Air Line Railroad; Lehigh Valley Railroad; Wheeling and Lake Erie Railway; Pittsburgh and West Virginia Railway; Western Maryland Railway; Akron, Canton and Youngstown Railway; Norfolk and Western Railway; 50% of Detroit, Toledo and Ironton Railroad; Toledo, Peoria and Western Railroad; Ann Arbor Railroad; 50% of Winston-Salem Southbound Railway Atlantic Coast Line Railroad; Louisville and Nashville Railroad; Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway; Clinchfield Railroad; Atlanta, Birmingham and Coast Railroad; Mobile and Northern Railroad; New Orleans Great Northern Railroad; 25% of Chicago, Indianapolis and Louisville Railway (Monon Railroad); 50% of Winston-Salem Southbound Railway Southern Railway; Norfolk Southern Railway; Tennessee Central Railway (east of Nashville); Florida East Coast Railway; 25% of Chicago, Indianapolis and Louisville Railway (Monon Railway) Illinois Central Railroad; Central of Georgia Railway; Minneapolis and St. Louis Railway; Tennessee Central Railway (west of Nashville); St. Louis Southwestern Railway (Cotton Belt); Atlanta and St. Andrews Bay Railroad Chicago and North Western Railway; Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad; Litchfield and Madison Railway; Mobile and Ohio Railroad; Columbus and Greenville Railway; Lake Superior and Ishpeming Railroad Great Northern-Northern Pacific Railway; Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway; 50% of Butte, Anaconda and Pacific Railway Milwaukee Road; Escanaba and Lake Superior Railroad; Duluth, Missabe and Northern Railway; Duluth and Iron Range Railroad; 50% of Butte, Anaconda and Pacific Railway; trackage rights on Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway to Portland, Oregon. Burlington Route; Colorado and Southern Railway; Fort Worth and Denver Railway; Green Bay and Western Railroad; Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad; 50% of Trinity and Brazos Valley Railroad; Oklahoma City-Ada-Atoka Railway Union Pacific Railroad; Kansas City Southern Railway Southern Pacific Railroad Santa Fe Railway; Chicago Great Western Railway; Kansas City, Mexico and Orient Railway; Missouri and North Arkansas Railway; Midland Valley Railroad; Minneapolis, Northfield and Southern Railway Missouri Pacific Railroad; Texas and Pacific Railway; Kansas, Oklahoma and Gulf Railway; Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad; Denver and Salt Lake Railroad; Western Pacific Railroad; Fort Smith and Western Railway Rock Island-Frisco Railway; Alabama, Tennessee and Northern Railroad; 50% of Trinity and Brazos Valley Railroad; Louisiana and Arkansas Railway; Meridian and Bigbee Railroad Canadian National; Detroit, Grand Haven and Milwaukee Railway; Grand Trunk Western Railroad Canadian Pacific; Soo Line; Duluth, South Shore and Atlantic Railway; Mineral Range Railroad [1] Terminal railroads proposed[edit] There were 100 terminal railroads that were also proposed. Below is a sample: Toledo Terminal Railroad; Detroit Terminal Railroad; Kankakee & Seneca Railroad Indianapolis Union Railway; Boston Terminal; Ft. Wayne Union Railway; Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line Railroad Toledo, Angola & Western Railway Akron and Barberton Belt Railroad; Canton Railroad; Muskegon Railway & Navigation Philadelphia Belt Line Railroad; Fort Street Union Depot; Detroit Union Railroad Depot & Station; 15 other properties throughout the United States St. Louis & O'Fallon Railway; Detroit & Western Railway; Flint Belt Railroad; 63 other properties throughout the United States Youngstown & Northern Railroad; Delray Connecting Railroad; Wyandotte Southern Railroad; Wyandotte Terminal Railroad; South Brooklyn Railway
Thank you, it never occured to me just to look up "ICC"!
To fan the flames, here is the "Ripley" Plan
There were 100 terminal railroads that were also proposed. Below is a sample:
.
Reactions
B&M - Well, that gives it northern New England, IIRC MC and BAR shared officers and integrated operations even if they weren't merged
New Haven - Would own its western connections at Maybrook, but the O&W would just have finished the NH off faster
New York Central - Rutland had been in NYC family, NYC was VGN's northern connection at Deep Water, WV
PRR - The LIRR was already virtually a piece of the Pennsy
B&O - Had long term relationship with CNJ and RDG already in the Royal Blue Line (not just passenger, but freight as well) and would acquire and merge BR&P
C&O - Hocking Valley was its connection to the Lakes and C&O would acquire and merge it
SAL - In Scranton and Buffalo by merging LV? Wild!
GNP - GN and NP were already co-owners of SP&S, but would they give up their Chicago access via the Burlington?
CB&Q - Already owned C&S and FW&D
ATSF - Owned and would merge KCM&O
MOP - Controlled and merged T&P, Merging with D&RGW and WP would recreate most of the old Gould transcontinental empire (WAB, P&WV and WM to go elsewhere)
Interesting in that the Muskogee Group (Midland Valley, Oklahoma City-Ada-Atoka and Kansas, Oklahoma & Gulf) was split three ways instead of being swallowed whole by one line
Your turn
here it is...
Interstate Commerce Commission - Wikipedia
Pennsy+N&W+Wabash+LV since they were controlled by Pennsy. Then let NYC & C&O merge. Soo Line+CGW+KCS at one time had strong ties.
There was an ICC proposal in the Twenties to "rationalize" the US railroad sysytem in to a a handful of what we would call "mega-railroads" today. My understanding is that's why PRR bought a stake in the LV and WAB, to get ahead of the game. I've never been able to find what the complete proposal was. Can anyone post that information or provide reference to a site that has it?
I had thought of what railroads would've benefited the Santa Fe a lot more if they had thoroughly thought out their choices, and looked at what railroads would've benefited them the most. Here's what I'd like to see as a Santa Fe mega-merger.
ATSF + Missouri Pacific + Missouri-Kansas-Texas + Western Pacific + DRGW + Frisco + Rock Island (or at least portions of) + NKP + NYC
MP and MKT would've provided ATSF a valuable connection to the Gulf Coast plus serving local chemical plants and refineries. WP is a no-brainer because then the Santa Fe can go further north than Sacramento, and directly compete with SP with a thorough Chicago-Bay Area route. NKP and NYC could also complete their link to the East Coast via Chicago.
Funny looking back at this old post. Plus some of the views have changed on some merger partners. It would've been nice to see these mergers happen:
Cotton Belt/C&EI
SOU/ACL/FEC/Georgia Road/Mobile & Ohio/Monon
SAL/CofG/Georgia Southern &Florida
L&N/Gulf Mobile & Northern
PRR/NKP/EL/D&H/DT&I/Detroit & Toledo Shore Line/Ann Arbor/Wabash
Santa Fe/Missouri Pacific/Frisco/Illinois Central/Minneapolis & St Louis
CGW/Soo Line
Break up the Milwaukee among; BN, UP, and GTW
Just some examples...Who's got some more?
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