Not sure if this thread was created before, and not to beat a dead horse....This is a what past RR's would you have merged together? It can be from any time period. Some of the mergers thought of, could lead to a different rail map than we have today. A more balanced system? Possibly even more rail still active today. Perhaps some of the mergers discussed could have been contemplated by the RR's in the past, and never matured. Or the merger partner backed out for various reasons. Whether it be a; Class 1, Regional, and/or Shortline. It can be anything from a super coast to coast system. East meets West, North, South. Whatever. List some combos for each region or a true transcontinental system. I'll start with a few I would have merged together.
1) My Transcon System merger circa 1960:
Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central, Central of Georgia, Florida East Coast, Nickel Plate, Deleware Lackawanna and Western, Detroit Toledo and Shore Line
2) My merger for two Midwestern roads circa 1965:
Kansas City Southern+Gulf Mobile and Ohio
3) My merger for three Western Roads circa 1965:
Union Pacific+Rock Island+Northern Pacific
P.S. If you have the tools even map them out. If you would like too share them.
What is the economic reasons for the mergers you have suggested? Mergers don't happen because the look nice on a map - they happen because the make economic sense to the parties involved.
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BaltACD What is the economic reasons for the mergers you have suggested? Mergers don't happen because the look nice on a map - they happen because the make economic sense to the parties involved.
These mergers I suggested were more or less opening up new traffic sources/lanes and single line service to benefit customers. Call it economics? Probably not. But this is a topic I wanted to cover later. This is something I wanted to discuss later after everyone got their ideas in. Then we could look at each and see why they would make sense. My transcon merger was more or less single line service through Chicago with minimal interchange. With the intention of developing new traffic lanes. Grain from the Northern Plains could flow to; Midwestern, Eastern and Southern Ports seamlessly. Same for Automotive traffic from the Midwest to the Pacific and South. Forest Products from the Pacfic Northwest to Eastern destinations etc..The second merger I proposed was to give KCS access to Chicago. Allowing greater interchange to Eastern manufacturing, and vice versa. My third merger was to give UP greater access to new markets, also the NP inclusion was to give a better balance of competition on the Northern Plains essentially prepping for a future BN.
Point-to-point merger of the New York Central to any of the 'roads that terminated in Chicago. The merger of the PRR and the NYC made no sense at all, at least Al Pearlman thought so.
In the same vein, a point-to-point of the PRR with any of the Chicago terminus 'roads.
New York Central - Santa Fe and perhaps Pennsylvania Railroad and Southern Pacific or Union Pacific.
In the 60s the eastern railroads were struggling, in part due to changing shipping patterns, the growth of trucking, and shorthauls that made rail uneconomical given the labor contraints of the day. Out West the situation was less critical.. nice long hauls, a simpler route structure, and perhaps not quite as much competition from trucking. A merger of a strong western carrier with a struggling eastern partner could have resulted in a much stronger combination.. a true transcontinental system as early as 1965. As it is, CN remains the only true transcontinental today, in 2015. Imagine the possibilities that a NYC - ATSF combination could have offered shippers. The water level route between the largest US cities and the Chicago to LA racetrack for the West! Both NYC and ATSF were ahead of their time with intermodal... ATSF with their Super C and NYC with their flexivan system. A meeting of the minds through merger would have resulted in further innovation and progress instead of the debacle that was Penn Central. NYC's flexivan expertise in containerization could have been extended to the western ports while ATSF's piggyback focus could have been extended east as an alternative to trucking, thereby further building on each systems's core strengths.
A NYC - ATSF merger would have resulted in a sweeping transcontinental trunkline with branchlines into the growing sunbelt states as well as direct access to Canada's manufacturing heartland, truly a system that would have been much greater than the sum of its parts!
UP-Rock Island before the RI had 10 years to fall apart. RI, whatever its historical missteps, had the population, agricultural and industrial centers, and would have gotten UP into Chicago 30 years before CNW did.
Thank gummint for the likes of the Quad Cities, Iowa City, Newton and Des Moines enjoying branch-line status today. Little wonder I-80 is so busy through there.
Before the PC fiasco, C&O wanted to merge with NYC. ICC nixed it. If it had happened it would have created something close to what happened with the Conrail split, but C&O/NYC would have kept the entire water level route, which would have been a better balance than what NS eventually got.
Also, I would liked to have seen D&RGW kept out of UP, to at least give an impression of some competition in the central corridor.
The NYC merged with SCL and L&N to make it possible to cover more territory.
The B&O and C&O taking over the GM&O since the future IC operators decided to dismantle most of the GM&O in the coming decades.
The PRR would have ended up being controlled and merged into the N&W and Southern Railway in the 1960's to keep operating.
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Given my druthers (and a big heap of hindsight) the SAL would have wound up under the Southern banner and ACL would have gotten the Central of Georgia. After that the L&N, which was already in the ACL camp, would have gotten its share of the Chicago & Eastern Illinois and Southern the Monon. It's not perfect but would have yielded a better balance than what did happen.
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The proposed UP-Rock Island merger made a lot of operational sense but the other Midwestern Class 1's that connected UP with Chicago realized it would potentially kill a vital source of revenue and fought it tooth and nail. I personally believe the merger should have been approved..
The various railroads that co-operated in "Alphabet Route" freight service would have made an impressive system:
http://www.american-rails.com/alphabet-route.html
Missouri Pacific/D&RGW/Western Pacific is also an interesting idea although probably by now either BNSF or UP would have merged the system.
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Here in the southeast a puzzle was the ACL - SAL merger. Why SOU RR did not get some of the SAL has always been a puzzle. That would have given Florida 2 competing RRs instead of the CSX mostly and the independent FEC on east coast. .
blue streak 1 Here in the southeast a puzzle was the ACL - SAL merger. Why SOU RR did not get some of the SAL has always been a puzzle. That would have given Florida 2 competing RRs instead of the CSX mostly and the independent FEC on east coast. .
Remember the context of time we are talking about. This all happened during the same era that Southern was fighting the Big John hopper car case essentially poking the ICC in the eye. ACL was a huge corporation headquartered in Florida and Tallahassee did not want to cross them. The city of Tampa did put up a fight but could not overcome Federal and State hubris. The argument was made that there was nor would ever be enough traffic in Central Florida, specifically west-central Florida, to justify two railroads. But the trackage requisition by Southern would not have been a gift; they would have to buy it. If the traffic didn't pan out then Southern would have been stuck with the losses and the petitions for abandonment.
Basically railroading in my part of the Sunshine State dried up over the fight for the principles of rate regulation embodied by Big John and I think of this every time I see the one preserved in Spencer. The regulatory bodies that were supposed to ensure balanced trade and the good of the public with indiscriminate fairness to all the parties involved failed miserably. Was the Big John victory worth the losses of a bad merger? We still have railroads over 50 years later and they are doing reasonably well and as a railroader I am grateful although sometimes it is bittersweet.
Did the ACL moves its headquarters from Wilmington to Jacksonville before the merger with the SAL? Whenever my mother mentioned writing for a pass, she always spoke of writing to Wilmington (my father worked in the Tampa Shops).
Johnny
Deggesty Did the ACL moves its headquarters from Wilmington to Jacksonville before the merger with the SAL? Whenever my mother mentioned writing for a pass, she always spoke of writing to Wilmington (my father worked in the Tampa Shops).
A related quetion- Had the Southern Pacific / Santa Fe merger gone through, would it have succeeded in doing what its planners thought it would accomplish?
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Here's one that I would have liked to see.
Also, Erie/Milwaukee....the "throw away transcon".
NKP+EL. The EL needed a bigger Midwestern network, the NKP access to New York City.
NorthWest NKP+EL. The EL needed a bigger Midwestern network, the NKP access to New York City.
They already cooperated on passenger service Buffalo-NYC; don't remember if they also did so on freight. (Have to revisit my John Rehor.) Bet NKP Guy would know.
Convicted One Here's one that I would have liked to see. Also, Erie/Milwaukee....the "throw away transcon".
Nice map :-). Wabash+Frisco looks like a formidable line. Midwest autos, steel and grain to the South. Not too mention serving oil and gas heavy Oklahoma and Texas.
Yeah Erie did need a larger Midwestern presence. I had envisioned Erie merging with the Wabash instead of Delaware Lackawanna and Western. Giving it access to the Michigan auto industry and Wabash's (Used trackage rights across southern Ontario to reach Buffalo) Canadian traffic. I could see a Erie+Wabash+DT&I merger. The DT&I inclusion would give it a direct link to Detroit without a roundabout way. Plus access to southern Ohio coal.
SD60MAC9500 Wabash+Frisco looks like a formidable line
Nickel Plate + GM&O might be another interesting combination
And add Rock Island to either this or the earlier mentioned Wabash+Frisco union, and you have some interesting possibilities. (super bridge)
Definitely, Rock Island - Milwaukee Road - Southern Pacific would have been a great merger, in my humble opinion. Possibly add in the D&RGW as a complete central corridor.
Murphy Siding A related quetion- Had the Southern Pacific / Santa Fe merger gone through, would it have succeeded in doing what its planners thought it would accomplish?
One merger that could have happened was C&NW and the MILW. Basically the corporate parent of C&NW offered the railroad to MILW. For whatever reason the MILW didn't bite. Imagine a Chicago, Milwaukee & North Western that got its act together and hung on long enough to be included into today's UP.
dakotafred UP-Rock Island before the RI had 10 years to fall apart. RI, whatever its historical missteps, had the population, agricultural and industrial centers, and would have gotten UP into Chicago 30 years before CNW did. Thank gummint for the likes of the Quad Cities, Iowa City, Newton and Des Moines enjoying branch-line status today. Little wonder I-80 is so busy through there.
Those customers on the exRI that still use rail are probably better off with the IAIS then UP. It's not that IAIS provides better service, although it probably does, but that many of the customers probably don't have enough traffic to interest the UP.
Jeff
D.Carleton One merger that could have happened was C&NW and the MILW. Basically the corporate parent of C&NW offered the railroad to MILW. For whatever reason the MILW didn't bite. Imagine a Chicago, Milwaukee & North Western that got its act together and hung on long enough to be included into today's UP.
MILW wanted to merge with CNW, but mgmt cut maintenance below the level of sustainability to raise MILW's stock price and thereby assure they ran the merged RR. Don't know why the merger didn't happen, but by then MILW was in such bad shape it couldn't survive.
This more than likely wasn't on the mind of KCS at the time. But When BN opened up the Powder River Basin, with C&NW coming on board later. Wonder why KCS didn't try to buy or merge with C&NW. Since KCS ended up being a recipient of Powder River coal traffic. This would have given them they're own right of way plus the entire haul. Instead of relying on interchange with BN and C&NW. They could have just upgraded the Cowboy line. I'm sure that wouldn't have required much investment.
The Milwaukee Road should have had to have been merged into another railroad by 1975, before the maintenance dropped-off.
Andrew Falconer The Milwaukee Road should have had to have been merged into another railroad by 1975, before the maintenance dropped-off.
Yes, it is a puzzle. I, too, have often wondered why there was such reluctance to pare off portions of some merger partners if antitrust was an issue. The only examples I can think of before the 1980s are the split of the C&EI between Mopac and L&N in 1969 and the first major shortline spinoffs related to Conrail in 1976.
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