54light15, those Rolls- Merlin engines in the Mustang sure do whistle a pretty tune. Once you hear the tune it is never forgotten.
Cannonball
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
I remember back in the 50's on the prairies as a kid, watching 21 Lancasters fly over us at 1000 feet all within visual contact to each other, they were heading to Alberta to be scrapped, a few were saved one is still in Claresholm, Alberta. That is a sound that can never be forgotten, the ground was shaking.
And this thread is railroad related?
Norm
A few weekends back, while waiting for a signal at E. Missouri Valley, a B-17 flew over us. It appeared to be heading for the Omaha airport. I was hoping it might circle around so I could get another look, but no such luck.
Jeff
Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw.
You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion.
What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time!
Yes, it is still a trains thread. If it wasn't for trains North American Aviation in Columbus Ohio would be hard pressed for parts to build their planes.
Norm48327And this thread is railroad related?
Originally this thread was going to be titled "Let's piss off the old man", but cooler heads prevailed.
In a crossover move; Rail Exec. picked to head United Airlines
Oscar Munoz, chief operations officer and president of CSX Corp. (NYSE: CSX) has been tapped as the new chief executive officer for United Airlines (NYSE: UAL).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
54light15 You know what else is impressive? The Canadian Warbirds Museums Avro Lancaster that just now flew over my house. 4 Packard-built Merlins makes for some mighty fine music!
You know what else is impressive? The Canadian Warbirds Museums Avro Lancaster that just now flew over my house. 4 Packard-built Merlins makes for some mighty fine music!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
ouibejamnOriginally this thread was going to be titled "Let's piss off the old man", but cooler heads prevailed.
Typical reply from an immature twelve year old.
Forty three years ago I was still in bed on a Sunday morning when a Catalina flew over. The sound of the twin radial engines was distinctive and I saw it fly over without leaving my bed.
I was dressed in record time and made it to the local airport before it had taxied in and shut down.
It was being used for mineral exploration.
I was working as a railway mechanical engineer at the time.....
M636C
Norm48327 And this thread is railroad related?
As I recall, several past threads have evolved into spirited discussions on warplanes or ships. I figured that 54 just decided to take a shortcut.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
M636C Forty three years ago I was still in bed on a Sunday morning when a Catalina flew over. The sound of the twin radial engines was distinctive and I saw it fly over without leaving my bed. I was dressed in record time and made it to the local airport before it had taxied in and shut down. It was being used for mineral exploration. I was working as a railway mechanical engineer at the time..... M636C
To digress occasionally is not a bad thing. I'm not sure it's accurate, but I've heard that there's more to life than trains....
Heard some radials nearby one day and got outside in time to see a PBY that had apparently landed or done a touch-and-go on a small lake nearby. It was flying out the the local airport for a while.
One neat thing about going to air shows is seeing (and hearing) those old warbirds flying.
Had a chance to take a self-guided tour of a B-17 at an air show a few years ago (the show wasn't open yet and I was there as staff). For as big as they look on the silver screen, they were tiny. I had a heck of a time getting my 6'5" frame into the nose. The tail gunner's position and the ball turret were out of the question...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Watching them and hearing them is one thing. Actually working on them was another, quite different. Try changing #13 cylinder on the #1 R-1830 of a C-47 in a Korean snowstorm if you want to find a whole new definition of fun...
Over my 26 year career I got hands in the machinery experience with a lot of airframes, most of them powered by reciprocating engines. Later, I was in the business of readying a base for the first F-15s to be deployed outside CONUS. The first one arrived and I went over to the nose dock to look at it - drip pan under the open engine bay access, telltale seeps at rivets and one landing gear actuator showing a telltale moist smear.
I went back to the office and the project officer (a supply type who thought the F-15 was the greatest thing since the steam engine) asked, "Well, Sarge, whaddya think?"
My answer? "A flying fuel, oil and hydraulic leak, just like all the other aircraft I've worked on."
Much later, I was a statistician in a Titan outfit that had somehow acquired a B-17 as a non-flying squadron mascot. I was asked why I didn't volunteer to work on restoring the old hulk, since I had experience with similar aircraft. Answer - "It's one thing to get filthy working on a plane that will be flying missions and accruing hours. Working on something that will never move again except at the end of a towbar isn't worth my time. I have a model railroad that satisfies my need for a hobby."
That Titan outfit stood down not long after I retired. The B-17 is under cover at the Pima Air Museum. The latest iteration of the model railroad is going strong.
Chuck, MSgt(ret) USAF
Entering service in 1976, F-15s will remain in production through 2019 (for foreign nations). The USAF still has 178 F-15C/Ds and 224 "Deep Strike" F-15Es in service.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Does flying over railroads qualify?
Maybe not a war bird, but how i liked to fly in or watch an island airways ford tri motor rumble her way west to put n bay. Quite a sight and experience to have and remember.
Years back I read a wonderful story about that Island Airways Ford Tri-Motor.
A little boy was going for a ride on the plane with his father, and as the engines fired up the boy's face lit up like his dad had never seen before.
You see, the boy was deaf, and the noise of the engines was the first thing he'd ever heard. Yep, apparantly they were THAT loud!
Anyone know if that "Tin Goose" is still around?
tomikawaTTWatching them and hearing them is one thing. Actually working on them was another, quite different. Try changing #13 cylinder on the #1 R-1830 of a C-47 in a Korean snowstorm if you want to find a whole new definition of fun...
For those who want the flavor of the experience, here is a guide for you.
My favorite B-17 memory came upon me by surprise -
I was traveling with my folks on summer vacation touring the northwestern United States. Mom, Dad and I were catching some of the great American railroads, Great Northern, and Northern Pacific.
In Montana near Little Big Horn River in 1967 there was a large forest fire sparked by a thunderstorm lightening strike. The event of course made newspapers and could be seen by the smoke plume in the distance as we traveled.
Unexpectedly, as we passed some local airport - I was privileged to suddenly see going down the road right along side of us - a silver plane taking off down a runway, banking and climbing - almost over the road we traveled - four engines - silver spinning props just a hundred yards or so away from dad's speeding 1966 Chrysler New Yorker.
I was caught aback, there were no gun turrets like the model planes I built - and I suddenly realized this was a B-17 bomber - a real B-17 bomber!
Struck by the moment I was surprised how much smaller it was than I had envisioned - and so much more agile - and fast - and it soared with a grace un-equaled. Wow! and in civilian service!
Since that time I have recollected my prividged moment as -
A B-17 in service contemporary to the lives of the men who flew them in combat!
A B-17 fighting forest fires - in a useful commercial service not a historic one!
A B-17 famous - but in peacetime an acronym of pain for what men everywhere were trying to forget!
A B-17 never to be forgotten - flown seriously as a modern plane with mission - by those who knew exactly how to fly them!
Doc
Two of them at Port Clinton and one still flies, but not regularly.
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2014/07/port_clintons_liberty_aviation.html
As the son of a navigator who served with the 306th Bomb Group, I am grateful to see the favorable words for the B-17. But Dad would also remind us that war is hell, even at 30,000 feet. Also remember that they flew in an unpressurized, poorly heated and cramped aircraft. Crew members wore oxygen masks to stay alive and wore heated flying suits (think form-fitting electric blanket) to keep from freezing, not always successfully. Then they had to deal with a bunch of other guys at the same altitude who were trying to kill them.
We should appreciate and honor what Dad and his fellow crewmen did but we should not glorify it.
Dr D In Montana near Little Big Horn River in 1967 there was a large forest fire sparked by a thunderstorm lightening strike. The event of course made newspapers and could be seen by the smoke plume in the distance as we traveled. Unexpectedly, as we passed some local airport - I was privileged to suddenly see going down the road right along side of us - a silver plane taking off down a runway, banking and climbing - almost over the road we traveled - four engines - silver spinning props just a hundred yards or so away from dad's speeding 1966 Chrysler New Yorker.
I'll bet you were by the Forsythe airport, which is the only one next to the main highway in that part of Montana. The Hardin airport is close to the old highway, but it is right next to downtown Hardin and not a place for your dad to be speeding.
- Erik
schlimm Two of them at Port Clinton and one still flies, but not regularly. http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2014/07/port_clintons_liberty_aviation.html Thank you Schlimm, I appreciate the link!
I'm the son of a bombardier, B24's, who was with the 380th B/G (H), hence the picture I use. My dad was very much the same. Was reading the letters he sent home to is girl friend, (my mother), and in one he wrote, on his way back from bombing Saigon, "Sorry to be using pencil to write this but my ink pen does not work where we are at as it is WELL below zero".
To tie it back into railroads. There was a combination air-rail coast to coast service offered in the 20's and 30's where the railroads advanced the passengers at night and then they swapped over to planes during the day. I believe Ford Tri-motors were used in that service.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Firelock76 Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw. You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion. What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time!
Hi, Firelock. As a member of the Old Rhinebeck BoT, thanks for the mention. I find many railfans are also fans of antique airplanes. Sadly the locomotive you remember (it was a German quarry engine) has departed. But, we have caboose that we use for storing our uniforms and costumes. You can take a ride in a 1929 biplane out over the Hudson River and watch Amtrak on the former Water Level Route. As to the engines, our Fokker D-VIII is back with a 160 Gnome Rotary-noisiest old airplane engine you'll ever hear-it revolves with the propeller and has no exhaust system. Oh, you can get to us by taking Amtrak to Rhinecliff and getting a cab. Airshows Sat and Sun through October 12/13.
Mike
Hello MikeFF! I'm just thrilled to hear from a member of the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome staff. The last member I heard from was ol' Cole Palen himself. After seeing one of the airshows around 1968 or so (I was 15 at the time) I sent Mr. Palen a fan letter telling him how much I enjoyed the show and how much I appreciated what he was doing. The Man sent me a postcard in reply which I still have and treasure to this day. What a guy he was, I would have been thrilled to meet him.
Not surprised I was wrong on the steam engine. The last time I was at the Aerodrome was 1976 and I wasn't a railfan at the time, but I sure knew a steam engine when I saw one!
Is the Renault FT-17 tank still operational? Man, I'd love to have one of those things!
I live in Virginia now, far away from where I grew up in North Jersey. Maybe one day I'll be back to the Aerodrome, just don't know when.
Turns out the missus, Lady Firestorm and her sisters visited the Aerodrome with her father just about the same time. She wants to know, do you still have that authentic World War One era "three-seater", uh, "facility" on the premises? She loved the place as well, by the way.
PS: I've never been in a 1929 New Standard D-25, but I HAVE been in a Stearman PT-17 several times. I remember reading a World War One pilot once said that being up in the air in a open-cockpit airplane made him feel like a little god. After those Stearman rides I knew what he meant.
PPS: A 160 horsepower rotary on a Fokker D-VIII? The thing must go like a rocket! I believe the usual rotary for those airplanes in 1918 was the 110 HP Oberursal.
Does anyone have any info on the B-17, that was flying off the Oregon Coast, Labor Day weekend?
We were fishing along the south jetty of Nehalem Bay, when I heard an aircraft approaching, that sounded diferent than what I am used to hearing, Lots of guys looking up, and ALL were smiling, when we realized the unexpeted Treat, hat flew over.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Firelock76 A 160 horsepower rotary on a Fokker D-VIII? The thing must go like a rocket! I believe the usual rotary for those airplanes in 1918 was the 110 HP Oberursel.
That's a French engine, probably a nine-cylinder 9-N. (They did make a double-row engine of 160 hp, but that would be far too exotic and fidgety to trust a historic airframe to!)
Interestingly enough, the original engine-company name and the basic single-valve principle came, from all places, from the Oberursel engine people! (They returned the favor by using some of the French monosoupape design principles in the U.III you mentioned...)
You will be using one of those three holes sooner, rather than later, when you fly a rotary! And that's not just because of the large gyroscopic torque and hot performance!
challenger3980 Does anyone have any info on the B-17, that was flying off the Oregon Coast, Labor Day weekend? We were fishing along the south jetty of Nehalem Bay, when I heard an aircraft approaching, that sounded diferent than what I am used to hearing, Lots of guys looking up, and ALL were smiling, when we realized the unexpeted Treat, hat flew over. Doug
Here is a link you and other might enjoy: http://www.johnweeks.com/b17active/index.html
It is a list of WWII ( and other warbirds) "B-17 — The Flying Fortress Survivors - Airworthy Flying Forts"
Hard to tell from the included list which aircraft you might have see airborn(?)
I had a similar experience about a year and a half ago. We were about 4 miles south of the McConnell AFB and after hearing a couple of 4 engine jet a/c pass over ( tankers?) there came the destinctive sound of multiple recip engines ( a sound that is very hard to forget). Turned out there was a B-17-G that was flying out of the Jabara Airport for it airshow and was giving out rides to 'paying' passengers. ( You'll remember Jabara AP ?- it was the civilian airport that hosted the big Boeing Dreamlifter that landed there by mistake?
? Link @ http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/11/21/boeing-dreamlifter-kansas-airport/3661511/
They just announced within the last week $300 K damages to runway- was not built to handle the 600,000 # landing weight of that Dreamlifter.
EDIT to Add-Saturday 09/19/2015: Today at the Former Boeing Plant a volunteer group[called Doc's Friends] did start, and successfully run the engines on " Doc" a B-29 Superfortress; this plane was one of over 1600 built at Boeing in Wichita for WWII Service. The volunteer group hope that 'Doc' may fly in the next few months. They have been working on 'Doc' for about 15 years, it will be the third restored B-29 to fly when it gets airborne.
See story linked @ http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/B-29-Docs-engine-test-a-success-328233331.html
Next time you step aboard a Boeing 737 , remember its 'first flight' was from Wichita, Ks. to Washington State on the BNSF, and has been that way since the late '60's. 747's Cockpits ride those same trains out to Washington State to be mated with their fuselages, as well.
Hi wizlish! If it's a Gnome rotary, it's French alright. I'm surprised they were able to find one. Back in the '60s they were still relatively common as more engines were built than aiplanes to use them during the WW1 years, but nearly 100 years later I'm surprised there's still any to be had. Not really a "faux pas" to have a French engine on a German plane, the Germans used quite a few captured Le Rhone rotarys on their own aircraft.
Oh yeah, that castor oil they used as an engine lubricant did amazing things to the pilots innards. A favorite post-flight drink was brandy with milk to settle their stomachs. The rotary engines were an evolutionary dead-end for more reasons than one!
As an aside, due to the British blockade the Germans had a hard time getting castor oil, so they came up with a synthetic called "Rizinus Oil." I'm not sure what it was made of. It performed well during warm weather months but was marginal during the winter. Another story.
Ever seen a rotary engine up close? The Virginia Aviation Museum has one, a Le Rhone, and you can get "up close and personal" with it. It's a masterpiece of the machinists art. Not to much of a stretch to call it a piece of art in its own right.
Firelock76As an aside, due to the British blockade the Germans had a hard time getting castor oil, so they came up with a synthetic called "Rizinus Oil." I'm not sure what it was made of. It performed well during warm weather months but was marginal during the winter. Another story.
This would be highly interesting, as I thought Rizinusöl was (as it is today) just the German word for castor oil. Are you thinking of Voltol, which was 50% rapeseed oil (the basis of much current biodiesel feedstock) and 50% mineral oil?
This was a Belgian process (the factory was in Ghent) involving a vacuum and high-frequency electricity at about 5kV, 8 to 10kW. The patent is German 234543, filed in 1909 and granted 1911 (you can download the PDF from DEPATISnet, and you might have Juniatha summarize the fine points if you can't read it.)
It could very well be Voltol. I heard about Rizinus for the first time in a biography of Baron von Richthofen by Peter Kilduff called "Richthofen-Beyond The Legend Of The Red Baron" published in 1993. Rizinus gets a brief mention but Kilduff didn't go into many details. I hadn't thought about it in years until this discussion came up.
At any rate the stuff had it's shortcomings. It's one of the reasons the Fokker company designed the D-7 around the Mercedes D-3 engine instead of the Oberursal rotary engine, Fokker realizing the rotarys were a dead-end. The reason Fokker used so many rotarys in his designs, and I should say the actual designer of many Fokker aircraft was really a gent named Rheinhold Platz, was the Albatros company, a Fokker rival, had a "lock" on Mercedes engines, for various reasons. Fokker finally got his hands on a D-3 engine, and the rest was history. Even his rival Albatros was ordered to build D-7's, they were that good.
[quote user="Firelock76"]
e [/quote]
"...Ever hear a rotary-engine... (?)"
To finish Firelock 76's quote.. for a Saturday morning in Wichita "...
[Rotary, not Radial, my error ] engines, FOUR [Wright Duplex Cyclones] of them! "
There is nothing else as recognizable, IMHO.
Particularly, living under the flight path for McConnell AFB. Got to watch as the B-29 'DOC' took another flight this morning!
Video of the first flight in July of this year @www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/yes-b-29-doc-first-flight-watch.html
I think that today's flight would be the 3rd or 4th one, after the rebuilding of "Doc".
Here is video of the 11/05/2016 Flight @ http://www.b-29doc.com/2016/11/05/video-doc-performs-high-speed-flight-and-arrives-at-wichitas-eisenhower-national-airport/
EDIT to add content: Received the Ks Historical Society Magazine "Kansas History" this AM. First article was 'KANSAS BOMBER - An enviromental history of the B-29 and the Sunflower State" by Chris Rein. Page 3 has several paragraphs on [paraphrased] how by 1940 Wichita was the center of an eight spoke rail network. As the War effort expanded the War Dept required rail connections to facilitate movement of troops and war equipment and parts. Boeing in Wichita received sheet aluminum from ALCOA at Bauxite,Ar. In one 1 month period Boeing shipped 600 carloads of spare parts while requiring 20 carloads of lumber a month for crates. It is pretty amazing that an airplane built in 1944 in Wichita,is flying in 2016, and on its way to be certified to fly again.
Boeing (now Spirit Aviation) still ships all 737 fuselages, and tail surfaces by rail to Washington State for completion. So the railroads still play a big role in Commercial Aviation today.
Hi Sam! I think you're confusing "rotary" engines with "radial" engines. In the classic rotary engine of the World War One period the cylinders were arrainged around a central axis the whole works spinning with the crankshaft remaining staitionary, it was a solution to the engine cooling problem. A radial engine has the same cylindrical arraingement but the whole thing is stationary, airflow over the exposed cylinders providing the cooling. The French had that one figured out by the end of the First World War, the Salmson two-seaters were equipped with some of the first radials, the rotarys proving to be an evolutionary dead-end.
But you're right, there's NO sound like a big radial recip engine. A B-17 flew over the house several years back and that deep-throated rumbling roar was unmistakable. Can you imagine what hundreds of them must have sounded like?
Firelock76I think you're confusing "rotary" engines with "radial" engines.
Hey, I learned something! I knew both types existed, but now know what to call them...
We still have the the rotary engines. The 160 Gnome in the Fokker Dr VIII is especially exciting. The quarry locomotive has sadly departed, but we have a caboose that we use as a dressing room-so I guess this is railroad related. Airshow season starts in June. And, you can come by Amtrak-NYC to Rhinecliff and a short taxi ride to the Aerodrome.
Firelock76But you're right, there's NO sound like a big radial recip engine. A B-17 flew over the house several years back and that deep-throated rumbling roar was unmistakable. Can you imagine what hundreds of them must have sounded like?
With airshows nearby, I've been lucky to have B-17, B-25, B-24 and a B-29 flyover my house at low altitude. Also a modern Zeppelin. Have heard an old JU-52 flyover in Munich. Older friends/relatives do recall US and RAF bombers in WWII. And one lived through the Hamburg firestorm bombing in 1943. So although we love seeing and hearing them, let's not forget their purpose.
"...Hi Sam! I think you're confusing "rotary" engines with "radial" engines. In the classic rotary engine of the World War One period the cylinders were arrainged around a central axis the whole works spinning with the crankshaft remaining staitionary.."
Wayne: You are SO Right! Have followed the story of "Doc' closely for some time. Just the fact that they rescued this B-29 from a 'Boneyard' and have gotten it redone and flyable is a tale in itself. It is really something to see in the air !
Modern Zeppelins? I was unaware that there were any Zeppelins (rigid-framed airships) in existence now.
Johnny
My husbands grandfather was a ball turret gunner on a B-24 in WW2. He had his diary until he donated to the USAF museum in Ohio. Why because he always said those in the future need to be reminded of the fear that the men that climbed into the bombers faced everyday trying to come home for their familes and countries on both sides of the war. His grandfather made his tour of 30 missions in the ETO and came home. I can imagine the fear of his grandpa in what I would call a fish bowl under the plane with nothing under him but sky no parachute and only protected by glass and the little plate he sat on. Those men where the bravest of the brave that flew those planes.
Johnny, I think what Schlimm may have seen was one of the new Zeppelin NT models. It's not a traditional rigid airship like the Graf Zeppelin or the Hindenburg, but what's called a semi-rigid, that is there's a rigid frame on the bottom of the envelope, kind of like the keel of a ship, and then a blimp-type envelope on top of it.
The last I've heard Goodyear has purchased some to replace some of their aging blimp fleet.
Wayne
The only glory in war is the glory of duty seen and duty done.
Know Napoleon's definition of a hero? "A man who sees his duty and does it, even though he's terrified."
Deggesty Modern Zeppelins? I was unaware that there were any Zeppelins (rigid-framed airships) in existence now.
Sort of. Zeppelin Luftschifftechnikik GmbH builds the semi-rigid Zeppelin NTs (much shorter than the old Graf Zeppelin or Hindenburg, only 246'). The are also building semi-rigids for Goodyear, replacing blimps.
Firelock76 Johnny, I think what Schlimm may have seen was one of the new Zeppelin NT models. It's not a traditional rigid airship like the Graf Zeppelin or the Hindenburg, but what's called a semi-rigid, that is there's a rigid frame on the bottom of the envelope, kind of like the keel of a ship, and then a blimp-type envelope on top of it. The last I've heard Goodyear has purchased some to replace some of their aging blimp fleet. Wayne
Not exactly.
[from Wiki] " It has an internal triangular truss made of graphite-reinforced plastic and three longitudinal girders made of welded aluminium which connect the triangular elements along the length of the frame. Additionally, the structure is tightened with aramid cords to provide for extra rigidity. All major components, such as the engines, control cabin and the steering fins, are all mounted upon the structure; this allows maneuverability to be maintained even in the event of envelope pressure being lost. The whole structure weighs only about 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb).
The envelope contains the lighter-than-air helium which gives the airship its buoyancy. Inside historical Zeppelins, the gas cells were separate entities from the hull; however, on the Zeppelin NT, the envelope serves both as the aircraft's hull and as the gas cell. It is made of a three-layered laminate: one gas-tight layer of Tedlar (PVF), one polyester fabric layer to provide stability and one polyurethane layer suitable for thermic welding that acts to connect the separate laminate panels. To preserve its outer form, a slight overpressure of about 5 millibars (0.073 psi) is maintained within the hull."
Thanks. Now I know that rigid-framed airships are half-way back.
Keep in mind the company was founded by Graf Ferdinand von Zeppelin in 1891. Hence Zeppelin became synonomous with dirigible airships.
You're correct Schlimm, I saw the Wiki article myself but was trying to keep it simple.
An example of a semi-rigid from the Golden Age of Aviation is the Italian-built Norge, used by Roald Amundsen to overfly the North Pole in 1926. Incidentally, Amundsen's reaching of the North Pole is apparantly now the only undisputed one, there's some doubt now about Peary's and Byrd's claims. Not that it really matters in the general scheme of things.
Just some miscellaneous stuff, in no particular order.
At a small airshow at a tiny airport when I was about 10, a P-51 was in attendance. Couldn't see it when the pilot fired up the engine, but even an ignorant kid knew that sound came from something special and very powerful. In the 50 or so years since I've NEVER heard anything that sounds even close. Think of 2 or 3 unmuffled Harley Davidson's up close.
Also while growing up, fire ants were moving into southeast GA and the state was trying to do something about it. They purchased at least one B-17 and a Navy recon plane (CV2?), a big twin-engine beast, and dropped fire ant bait over the area. One afternoon the CV2 (or whatever it was) made repeated trips over the farm dropping strips of ant bait. Sometime later the B-17 flew by going somewhere, we assumed to drop ant bait somewhere nearby. My father grabbed us boys up, we got in the car and chased it. Never did get a really good look at it, but we gave it the old college try.
As an adult, was able to tour a DC-4 which had been coverted to serve as an air tanker for fighting forest fires. USDA-Forest Service had an air tanker base set up in Ft. Smith, AR to mix water with the compressed dry fire retardant, and the plane was sitting there on standby during a period of high fire danger. Wasn't much to see, but I did get to hear (but not see) it take off once. Quite the internal-combustion symphony.
When I was about 16 we lived in the flight path of the airport near Rapid City, S.D. Being an avid avaiation fan, (it kinda goes with being a train fan perhaps?) I got excited when a B-24 came over the house and landed. On the prairie you can hear those things coming for miles. I called the airport to see if anyone could talk to me about the B-24. They gave me the airport manager. He had been a crewman on a medium bomber in WWII and we had a good long talk about airplanes. He also clued me in on when a B-17 would be in the area. Both were tankers fighting forest fires. A couple years later I worked a summer at that airport during college. That guy was my boss.
About 30 years ago there was an airshow at the Poughkeepsie airport. There was a PBY, a bunch of AT-6s and several P-51s. The real thrill was the Fokker D-7 from the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome. It was painted white and it took off from the grass next to the runway because of it's tailskid. It was airborne in about 200 feet! Then the pilot pulled it straight up and it hung motionless on it's propellor. My father was a WW1 aircraft buff and he told me they could do that and I saw it with my own eyes. That was something!
By the way, I did meet Cole Palen one time to see if he wanted to sell the 3-wheel Matchless-powered Morgan that was in one of the hangers and he wasn't interested. There were a few interesting old cars there including a Packard moving van with an ornately painted body from about 1915. Most of the aircraft from the film "Those Magnificant Men in their Flying Machines" were there too.
54Light, it's amazing how fast those WW1 types get off the ground, the one's I mentioned earlier were all airborne in less than a football field's length, they were STOL before the term was even invented!
Interesting you saw the D-7 painted all white. The only German ace I'm aware of who flew an all-white D-7 was Hermann Goering, he called it "The White Stag."
I can't imagine why they'd try to replicate Goering's D-7 unless they were reflecting the heroic, hard charging fighter pilot he was long before he turned into the fat, rapacious Nazi SOB he became.
Firelock, I did not know that about fat boy. It was an amazing thing to see, that D7. Regarding zeppelins, I was in the Deutsches Museum in Munich (you have to go if you've never been) in 1978 and they had a chunk of duralumin, it might have been a frame piece of the Graf Zeppelin. About 6 feet long, a truss type girder with four long lengths and triangular bits holding the four together like an old railroad bridge. I picked it up and I think it might have weighed about 1/2 a pound. Couldn't believe how light that was.
I was in eigth grade science class, learning about airplanes. The teacher mentioned all the types of piston engines and then I said, "What about rotary engines?" He did not accept that there was an engine that spun with the propellor. My old man told me all about them and the first time I was at Rhinebeck, I gently turned the prop of the Sopwith and, yep, the engine turned just like dad said. My teacher was a jerk.
No, your teacher was not necessarily a jerk; his education had been neglected--to the point that he had trouble accepting a boy's statement.
I had not heard anything at all about the rotary engines until they were mentioned on this thread.
He was adamant about it. Did not want to hear it. I told him how my father knew his stuff and nope, not interested. Mind was shut. He was a teacher, he knew and I didn't. Funny how I still resent that almost 50 years later but it's hard to forget a jerk.
SALfan Just some miscellaneous stuff, in no particular order. At a small airshow at a tiny airport when I was about 10, a P-51 was in attendance. Couldn't see it when the pilot fired up the engine, but even an ignorant kid knew that sound came from something special and very powerful. In the 50 or so years since I've NEVER heard anything that sounds even close. Think of 2 or 3 unmuffled Harley Davidson's up close. Also while growing up, fire ants were moving into southeast GA and the state was trying to do something about it. They purchased at least one B-17 and a Navy recon plane (CV2?), a big twin-engine beast, and dropped fire ant bait over the area. One afternoon the CV2 (or whatever it was) made repeated trips over the farm dropping strips of ant bait. Sometime later the B-17 flew by going somewhere, we assumed to drop ant bait somewhere nearby. My father grabbed us boys up, we got in the car and chased it. Never did get a really good look at it, but we gave it the old college try. As an adult, was able to tour a DC-4 which had been coverted to serve as an air tanker for fighting forest fires. USDA-Forest Service had an air tanker base set up in Ft. Smith, AR to mix water with the compressed dry fire retardant, and the plane was sitting there on standby during a period of high fire danger. Wasn't much to see, but I did get to hear (but not see) it take off once. Quite the internal-combustion symphony.
[quote user="Shadow the Cats owner"]
Shadow,
My father was a bombardier in B-24s. Was in the 380th B/G in 1945 flying out of the Philippines. Flew some of the longest missions of WW2. When a B-24 landed at Bishop Airport in Flint, mi. I drove him over to it with the intent of getting him a ride. He refused to get out of the car, said, "I do not have any intention of ever getting anywhere near one of those, take me back to the office, I don't need to see one of these, I already know all I need to know". He flew 27 missions averaging 11 hours per mission, plus 3 staging flights of 13 hours each as well as flying "SHY CHI BABY" home, (hence my avatar). While waiting to take off watched a B-24 skim the ground and pull up just enough to miss everything but his #4 prop which sliced through the crashing planes wing setting it on fire, it crashed. A couple other close calls on missions and then lost his pilot 9/8/1945 on a prisoner transfer flight with another crew.
Sorry for the edits, the fingers can't keep up with the brain.
Back about 20 years ago, I was on my drive home from work when I heard a lot of radial engines. I was only about 2 miles from CSX's Rougemere Yard in Dearborn, Mi (added to keep Norm happy) and I looked up and saw a B17, B24, B25, B29 and Super Connie flying in formation. They were all in town for the annual Willow Run Memorial Day airshow. Those 18 radials sounded great and got me wondering how a 1000 plane bombing raid would sound...
DeggestyI had not heard anything at all about the rotary engines until they were mentioned on this thread.
If I hadn't seen them in movies/videos, I'd probably have trouble believing such a thing existed. Seems like an awkward way to achieve the goal (spinning the prop).
Speaking of a PBY, I was in the back yard one day when I heard what sounded like a nearby airplane, but couldn't see it. Shortly thereafter a PBY, still dripping from it's "touch and go" on a nearby small lake appeared over a hill. Quite the sound...
BackshopBack about 20 years ago, I was on my drive home from work when I heard a lot of radial engines. I was only about 2 miles from CSX's Rougemere Yard in Dearborn, Mi (added to keep Norm happy) and I looked up and saw a B17, B24, B25, B29 and Super Connie flying in formation. They were all in town for the annual Willow Run Memorial Day airshow. Those 18 radials sounded great and got me wondering how a 1000 plane bombing raid would sound...
My condo in Jacksonville is a couple of miles from the end of the main E-W runway at NAS Jacksonville. Blue Angels put on their show there every other year (alternating with NAS Mayport - on the other side of town). Working 3rd trick I slept days.
6 FA 18's in formation about 5 or 600 feet off the deck flying over your bedroom is one hell of a wake up alarm - especially that 1st time when I didn't know it was going to happen. This was a short time after Desert Storm. I can only imagine what Baghad must have sounded like fighters and bombers overhead, ordinance exploding on the ground and AA firing at anything and everything real or imagined.
Quoting Balt: "ordinance exploding on the ground"
A law exploding? Sorry, Balt, I couldn't resist this. I know you meant "ordnance."
DeggestyQuoting Balt: "ordinance exploding on the ground" A law exploding? Sorry, Balt, I couldn't resist this. I know you meant "ordnance."
For all we know of internal Iraq at that time - the laws could have been exploding.
On the warbird theme:
F-89s vs a Hellcat drone
M636CI'm reminded of a comment by the pilot of an Avro Lancaster that had four of the Rolls Royce Merlin engines (the P-51D had a Packard built Merlin
M636C The Navy aircraft was probably a Lockheed Neptune, a P2V-5 or earlier. The last of these (P2V-7) lasted to be reclassified P-2H in the unified classification of the 1960s. These preceded the P-3 Orion which is only now giving way to the P-8 based on the 737. The Neptune had Turbo-Compound engines and had a very long range. One made a record flight (possibly from Africa to the USA) without refuelling.
The Navy aircraft was probably a Lockheed Neptune, a P2V-5 or earlier. The last of these (P2V-7) lasted to be reclassified P-2H in the unified classification of the 1960s. These preceded the P-3 Orion which is only now giving way to the P-8 based on the 737. The Neptune had Turbo-Compound engines and had a very long range. One made a record flight (possibly from Africa to the USA) without refuelling.
The Neptune in question was a P2V-1, "Truculent Turtle" that flew from Perth, WA to Columbus, Ohio non-stop in September 1946. This took place before the turbo-compounds were developed.
[quote user="Jay Emerson"]Hello Bob, My Name is Jay Emerson from Seatte. My wife's father flew with your father on Shy-Chi Baby in WW2. 2nd Lt. Robert W Anderson, Pilot, Kay's Crew 113. I've been doing internet research and your blog came up. Robert died when my wife was 18. He had no pictures or items from the war. Last weekend we toured a B24 in Seattle. We will go for a ride next year when it comes back. My wife never knew her dad was a war hero. She has been moved to tears by reading all the information I have found on him and his service in WW2. Jay
Jay, Hope the first mission info I sent helps out. In time I'll dig through my research on the 380th and send a list of all the missions they were on and the planes they flew. I've developed a very large data base on the 380th in 1945 for Feb1, 1945 to end of war. I'll stay in contact.
Bob
PS; By war end they ranked I think #2 in the 531st on misson points and #7 in all of the 380th B/G.
As a side note to those who are interested: The EAA Anual event at Oshkosh,Wi. Will feature a series of fly-bys of various bomber types this year.
Here is the posted schedule as well:
Bomber Schedule
Monday(07/24) – B-1, B-25s
Tuesday(07/25) - B-25s, B-29s
Wednesday(07/26) – B-25s, B-1 as part of the 75th anniversary reenactment of the Doolittle Raid
Friday(07/28) – B-29s as part of B-29 75th anniversary celebration
Saturday(07/29) – B-1, B-2, B-52, B-29s, B-17s, B-25s, A-20 as part of 8th Air Force 75th anniversary celebration
The two B-29's are the only two of their type still flying (FIFI, and DOC) there were 3,970 built by Boeing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iJpzsbsD2M
Vintage aircraft? Click on that link und passen sie auf, meine herren!
And imagine yourself in the back-seat of a British RE-8 or DH-4 and seeing THAT coming at you.
Thanks! If you were in the rearward facing seat, you probably would not be paying attention or looking out for very long!
[It's "Passen Sie auf, meine Herren!"]
Danke schoen, Herr Schlimm! Three years of German in high school and I'm lucky if I can pronounce Volkswagen correctly. Owned one too, a '73 Bug.
I'll tell you, when I found that video my jaw hit the floor. There probably hasn't been anything seen like that since 1918. Those boys in New Zealand are to be congratulated!
Firelock76 Danke schoen, Herr Schlimm! Three years of German in high school and I'm lucky if I can pronounce Volkswagen correctly. Owned one too, a '73 Bug. I'll tell you, when I found that video my jaw hit the floor. There probably hasn't been anything seen like that since 1918. Those boys in New Zealand are to be congratulated!
That NZ group is fantastic.
Here's another place that must be visited. I was in the U.K. recently and visited the famous Brooklands race track and aerodrome. The race track is not in use but is slowly being restored and there's an air museum there with a Wellington Wimpy bomber that is undergoing restoration. There is a lot of equipment and exhibits for the famous Dam Buster bombs and lots of stuff about Barnes Wallis, it's inventor. Brooklands is well worth visiting.
I was there for an exhibit of old buses as my friend Ian over there is into them. I'm not a bus guy but these were fascinating! Some were lovingly restored to perfection and some were still in service. One of the most unusual ones was a typical North American "Bluebird" yellow school bus. I never expected to see one of those but there it was.
Anyone who is into history and has a liking for old warbirds would do well to visit the Wright Patterson musem in Dayton and the Smithsonian Institute. Lots to see at both of them and the Udvar Hazy is also on the list of best aviation museums. I've been to UDVAr Hazy and Dayton yhe back-shops where they were restoring a B-1 were of substantil interest to onw who has spent many hours repairing damaged aircraft. It was impressive to say the least.
I have not been to the Smithsonian, but the other two were indeed impressive.
There are also a lot of other aviation museums around the country. Some focus on military planes and others are geared to general aviation as it evolved from the days of the Wright Brothers and the airmail routes those pilots followed. Prior to the advent of navigation aids pilots flew from markers on the ground, ie; arrows showing the direction to fly. Airmail postage was justifibly costly then due to the lack of aids pilots of today take for granted. Flying mail back then was a risky, but hopefully well paid occupation in the thirties and forties.
Today, we take for granted that we will receive our mail on time. That didn't hold true when I was young. The airplanes of the forties had no better technolocy than the automotive components they were provided with by their manufgacturers. Think of generator supplied electrical systems. By today's standards they were archaic and primitive. They regularly failed in flight leaving combat pilots to their own resources and their ability to fly by visual rules, and engage the enemy according to their instincts.
One does not have to be an academic to research the information. Your favorite search engine will provide much information.
My father was born in Towanda, Pennsylvania in 1926. He told me about several airmail planes crashing nearby. Boeing Model 40s as I recall him saying. To get back to trains, his entire school went to the station to see the Pioneer Zephyr that was on a nationwide tour after it's dawn to dusk run in 1934. To get back to aircraft, that Triplane video was awesome!
But, this might be of interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOoiEbtf2w
To add a bit to Norm 48327's thoughts: Had it not been for Boll Weevils in the South in the 1920's there might not have been a Delta Air lines. Using Huff-Daland Crop Dusting aircraft ( Started as the Huff-Daland Crop Dusters), it moved to Monroe La. in 1925 and in 1928 was bought by C.E. Woolman and remaned Delta Air Service. "...The story was that agricultural spraying was the mane job, but in the ';off seasons' they were known to transport single passengers. The fron cockpit was where the 'dust' was carried, and i assume the poassenger could be accomodated(?)..." (?) This was related to me by a cousin who had 35 years with Delta.
It sounds plausible. The Boeing Model 40's also had rather cramped provision for the occasional passenger so that could have provided a starting point for any of a number of passenger operations.
http://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/delta-history/timeline/decades/1920
http://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/delta-history/aircraft-by-type/crop-duster/huff-daland-duster
Excerpt from Watertown Daily Times
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/blogs/ogdensburg-powerboat-expertise-takes-to-the-air-20150310&
The Huff-Daland Company was founded in 1920 by Massachusetts Institute of Technology graduates Thomas Huff and Elliot Daland who knew boat builders’ skills translated especially well to the construction of hydro-airplanes, aka flying boats.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7mis6ulFkfUC&pg=PA9&dq=%22powder+before+passengers%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFvKzBr-3UAhUEVz4KHZLNBqEQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=%22powder%20before%20passengers%22&f=true
CSSHEGEWISCH It sounds plausible. The Boeing Model 40's also had rather cramped provision for the occasional passenger so that could have provided a starting point for any of a number of passenger operations.
Restored Boeing 40C in flight. Enclosed for 4 passengers + pilot.
http://sf260w.com/Boeing/Boeing.html
I brought this Thread back, as it seemed the appropriate venue to announce to those here who also have an interest in Historic Warbirds.
The FB website for our local warbird, The B-29 "Doc" has made an announcement for a partial schedule for the 2018 coming year:
Doc’s Friends has announced the partial 2018 tour schedule for B-29 Doc. The 2018 tour season will include a return trip to EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, WI, along with two tour stops in Kansas.
Additional tour stops will be announced in the coming weeks as negotiations with air shows are finalized.
'The Friends of Doc' FB Website is @ https://www.facebook.com/DocsFriends/
Thanks for that Sam, and what a fine job the "Friends" did on "Doc!"
A question for all, is anyone noticing what I'm noticing, that is, World War Two with it's personalities, events, and artifacts like "Doc" is going the same way the Civil War has, becoming more legend than real before our very eyes?
The Civil War has been called "The American Iliad." Maybe one day World War Two will be called "The American Iliad, Part Two." Or something similar?
Sam,
Although my career in aviation ( A&P/IA) was mostly dedicated to making GA available to the masses, ie; keeping the singles flying, the old warbirds have always fascinated me. While in my youth I recall the sound of B-36's high overhead I did not get involved in the nostalgia of most bombers. Fighters like the P-51 and P-47 were my interests.
Occasionally, at our local open house we get a four engined bomber. Other than that they are mostly a distant memory.
Norm48327While in my youth I recall the sound of B-36's high overhead I did not get involved in the nostalgia of most bombers. Fighters like the P-51 and P-47 were my interests.
I have the same memory of twice hearing/seeing B-36s making an approach. Fortunately, P-51s, P-47s and P-38s were also around then also. A local field has received a B-17, 24 and 25 in recent years.
Norm48327Sam, Although my career in aviation ( A&P/IA) was mostly dedicated to making GA available to the masses, ie; keeping the singles flying, the old warbirds have always fascinated me. While in my youth I recall the sound of B-36's high overhead I did not get involved in the nostalgia of most bombers. Fighters like the P-51 and P-47 were my interests. Occasionally, at our local open house we get a four engined bomber. Other than that they are mostly a distant memory.
Starting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still.
BaltACDStarting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still.
You've probably seen the video of the helicopter taking off with the rotor looking like it's not turning at all.
All of those bombers look so big, until you compare them to the FedEx plane in the background. I spoke to a C5A crew once that said they'd carried a complete B17 in the cargo hold...
tree68 BaltACD Starting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still. You've probably seen the video of the helicopter taking off with the rotor looking like it's not turning at all. All of those bombers look so big, until you compare them to the FedEx plane in the background. I spoke to a C5A crew once that said they'd carried a complete B17 in the cargo hold...
BaltACD Starting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still.
Without wings attached and extended I suspect.
I was at the Combat Air Museum at Topeka a couple of years ago - what impressed me most was how tiny most of the fighters were. From WW I through WW II.
BaltACDWithout wings attached and extended I suspect.
I think that's a given.
BaltACDI was at the Combat Air Museum at Topeka a couple of years ago - what impressed me most was how tiny most of the fighters were. From WW I through WW II.
I've had a couple of opportunities to see a P/F51 flying in formation with a modern jet fighter. The difference is startling.
My MIL was going thru some of my late FIL's stuff yesterday she still has some stuff she has to go thru 3 years later. Well in it was a letter from his father to his mother. It had to been right after the invasion of Sicily as that was the only time the 82nd Airbourne jumped in the Mediterrian theator of the war. In the letter he wrote ran into a couple boys from the 82nd today while on a pass off base. They saw my wings and asked what I did in as the called it the Chicken Air Corp. I told them I was a Ball Turret Gunner on a B-24 and asked if they wanted to swap positions with me. Both of them said hell no and swore that man has a bigger set of balls than we do.
I think you mean radial engine.
BLS53 Firelock76 Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw. You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion. What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time! I think you mean radial engine.
No sir, rotary engine, like this one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEEmdz7-Fk
Be patient, starting one of those things ain't easy, but once they start they have to be seen (and heard) to be believed!
However, many builders of World War One fighter replicas do use radial engines, both for ease in starting and handling, and also original rotarys are a bit hard to find.
Firelock76No sir, rotary engine, like this one... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEEmdz7-Fk Be patient, starting one of those things ain't easy, but once they start they have to be seen (and heard) to be believed! However, many builders of World War One fighter replicas do use radial engines, both for ease in starting and handling, and also original rotarys are a bit hard to find.
With the amount of rotating mass, I suspect the rotary's have a lot of torque steer.
BaltACD With the amount of rotating mass, I suspect the rotary's have a lot of torque steer.
That goes without saying....
The more successful rotary engine fighter pilots learned to make use of the gyroscopic action of the rotary engine. The rotary engines did not throttle down very well, so the usual way to reduce power was to intermittently cut the ignition. This is why old movies often used the engine cutting out for planes in distress.
Cutting out the ignition is just what my old man said. A rotary engine can only run wide open, there is no throttle. Also, "torque steer" as you say made them dangerous to fly. The Sopwith Pup and Camels were very difficult and killed a lot of novice pilots.
In the fairly recent film, "The Red Baron" the planes are all CGI and they do show the engines spinning. In the film, "The Blue Max' they utilise actual aircraft and they have radials.
The Sopwith Pups weren't too bad, and were actually fairly easy to fly. The Camels on the other hand could be killers if the pilots weren't aware what they were dealing with. With a much more powerful engine and a short coupling with the control surfaces on the tail the Camel could be deadly to an inexperienced pilot.
If I remember what I've read correctly, a turn to the left combined with the gyroscopic force of the engine would pull the nose up, but a turn to the right would put the nose down, as in RIGHT NOW down. Handy for getting yourself out of a tight spot in a dogfight, but disastrous if you did it close to the ground. I've got a book called "No Parachute" written by a Royal Flying Corps/ Royal Air Force veteran who flew both Pups and Camels, and he said his squadron was lucky, they recieved their Camels while deployed to Britain for home defense. Sopwith factory reps gave them a thorough briefing on the new airplane so they knew what to expect. Too many squadrons in France however didn't get any briefings at all, all they got was "Here's your new aeroplanes lads, have fun!"
Be that as it may, the Sopwith Camel shot down more German planes than any other Allied fighter of the war. Once it was mastered it was a superb fighter.
Oh yeah, that "Red Baron" movie that came out a few years back has all CGI airplanes in it, so I didn't bother with it, but I just love "The Blue Max!" No CGI in that one brother, them's real airplanes, even if they're all replicas.
If you're going to do an aviation film do it with the real things. The planes are the real stars as far as I'm concerned!
I've always wondered why someone didn't build a rotary engine that turned the other direction. It would seem like an easy way for the pilot to get out of trouble.
Firelock76If I remember what I've read correctly, a turn to the left combined with the gyroscopic force of the engine would pull the nose up, but a turn to the right would put the nose down, as in RIGHT NOW down. Handy for getting yourself out of a tight spot in a dogfight, but disastrous if you did it close to the ground.
You were supposed to learn the response to gyro torque in the penguins, long before leaving the ground. I'm not sure how many units transitioned without warning from normal crankshaft engines to rotaries.
When I was learning to fly WW1 aircraft, my 'instructor' mentioned that an effective combat technique with a rotary-equipped aircraft was simply to walk the rudder pedals when firing at an aircraft ahead of you. The torque reaction created a cone of fire which spread out proportionally to the amount of rudder, a far more deadly technique than trying to lead an aircraft properly under dogfight conditions.
You have already realized, I'm sure, that airplanes don't 'turn to the right' merely by putting the rudder over as in a boat. You turn the wings, and the wings fly the fuselage in the turn; the rudder just lines things up aerodynamically along the 'flight path'. Since getting the wing surfaces involves a roll, the result is not that you get sudden gyro torque moment but that turns in one direction initiate much more quickly than in the other, and you may be more disposed to enter the first stages of a stall in the 'preferred' direction especially in the heat of combat. Here, tolerating a little sideslip (or, alternatively, letting the right-angle torque moment put nose down and tail up in preparation for gaining airspeed for when you get the roll component out of the spin) will be of some use to you if you've got your reactions right.
Firelock, Overmod, thanks, I just learned a lot! I read that book, "No Parachutes" by Arch Whitehouse as I recall. I have a beer glass I acquired in England last year at a beer festival in Kingston that celebrates the 100th anniversary of the Sopwith Camel. The Sopwith factory was in Kingston, southwest of central London. Twickenham Ales is some great stuff! Not to change the subject.
'54, nothing wrong with changing the subjest if the new subject is ale, beer, wine, champagne, or the hard stuff, and I'm sure a lot of World War One aviators would agree!
Back to rotarys, I found this neat video where a nice young man gives us a tutorial on flying a rotary-engined Sopwith Pup. Very interesting and enjoyable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk
Overmod mentioned "penguins." For those who don't know, those were clipped-wing aircraft with rotary engines used for pilot familiarization with the same. They weren't capable of flying, strictly basic training "run-up-and-taxi" machines. They were used by the French, but I'm not sure if any other air service used them or something like them during the First War, I've only read about the French ones.
Reading the comments on that video, it's clear that some people just can't wrap their head around a rotary engine...
Firelock76'54, nothing wrong with changing the subjest if the new subject is ale, beer, wine, champagne, or the hard stuff, and I'm sure a lot of World War One aviators would agree! Back to rotarys, I found this neat video where a nice young man gives us a tutorial on flying a rotary-engined Sopwith Pup. Very interesting and enjoyable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk Overmod mentioned "penguins." For those who don't know, those were clipped-wing aircraft with rotary engines used for pilot familiarization with the same. They weren't capable of flying, strictly basic training "run-up-and-taxi" machines. They were used by the French, but I'm not sure if any other air service used them or something like them during the First War, I've only read about the French ones.
Getting it in the air
Historic aircraft have face similar problems of preservation as historic locomotives but somehow some seem to hang in there. For example, in the Jan, 2018 edition of "Air Classics" there are two significant aircraft discovered and protected. C119B 48-0352 was being put out for bids for scrap by the GSA when it was discovered that it was the only known survivor of the eight C119s that dropped Treadway bridge sections to enable 30,000 men to retreat from the Chosin Reservoir. It is going to the Air Mobility Museum at Dover , Delaware.
Even more remarkable is that C47 42-92847 was found in line to be converted to turbine engines and heavily modified at Basler Turbo Conversions. It was named "That's All, Brother" in WWII and was the first aircraft in the D-Day airborne operation. It was the first of over 800 C-47s that dropped airborne troops behind the German lines. It will go to the CAF, restored to the configuration of that day in 1944.
Sadly, many did not fare so well :
http://www.tailsthroughtime.com/2010/06/to-boost-morale-on-home-front-during.html
BOB WITHORNWe are working on the last bomb group reunion for the 380th B/G (H). It's set for the first weekend in November, 2018. The 380th was originally activated on Nov. 3rd, 1942 at Davis-Monthan AAFB, so, we hope to have a final tribute to them at Davis-Monthan AFB on Nov. 3rd, 2018. They flew B-24s in the South-Pacific. If any of you happen to know anyone that is still with us that was involved, go to the 380th.org website to get info. Hope you all don't mind the plug here, just trying to get to any thay are still around both here and in Australia as we're done after this one. Thanks for your patience, Bob
Interesting as hell. It makes sense about no warm-up period being a one-way user of oil. My two-stroke SAAB is the same way, oil is strictly one-way and once the engine starts, there is no warm-up period. You start it and drive.
For everyone interested, come visit us at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome this summer and all your questions will be answer when you see and hear a rotary engine fly. Aside from the gyroscopic forces issue, they catch fire easily (especially when starting), and the castor oil used for lubrication (yes-it is one way and gets thrown out all over the plane and the pilot) often caused a need for a sudden landing. Just to keep this in the railroad ballpark, you can take AMTRAK to Rhinecliff and catch a short cab ride or Metro North to Poughkeepsie and get a Zip Car. www.oldrhinebeck.org
54light15 Back to rotarys, I found this neat video where a nice young man gives us a tutorial on flying a rotary-engined Sopwith Pup. Very interesting and enjoyable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk Interesting as hell. It makes sense about no warm-up period being a one-way user of oil. My two-stroke SAAB is the same way, oil is strictly one-way and once the engine starts, there is no warm-up period. You start it and drive.
Good to hear from you again Mike!
I haven't been to the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in a long, long time, don't live in that part of the country anymore so it may be a while if I ever get back.
But for those of you in the area it's a show not to be missed! Trust me! You'll remember it for the rest of your lives!
One more thing about rotarys, the recorded video sound really doesn't do them justice, you really have to hear one in person to get the total effect. Like no other engine you've ever heard or ever will hear.
Sorry, hit the button twice.
CSSHEGEWISCH,
We only had 3 vets at this years reunion. It's the main reason we're done in November. Have really enjoyed listening to them open up and finally tell a little bit of their story. Had one of the Bombardiers ask me if he had made a mistake not telling his kids about his service, I told him yes, that the 'kids', would have truely enjoyed hearing and learning. Me, I couldn't get enough, I was captivated by his stories. He was the officer in-charge of de-actavating the 380th in early 1946 at Clark Field in the Philippines. He is still flying in the civil air patrol at 92, fully re-certified in 2017.
MikeFF Aside from the gyroscopic forces issue, they catch fire easily (especially when starting), and the castor oil used for lubrication (yes-it is one way and gets thrown out all over the plane and the pilot) often caused a need for a sudden landing.
Aside from the gyroscopic forces issue, they catch fire easily (especially when starting), and the castor oil used for lubrication (yes-it is one way and gets thrown out all over the plane and the pilot) often caused a need for a sudden landing.
I've run across a few references on the effect of castor oil on the pilots... The oil was mixed in with the gasolene for the same reason a 2 cycle gasolene having oil mixed in.
Wow, how did I miss this thread when it was first posted? Warbirds are my second hobby behind railroading that started with the American Heritage Junior Library edition of "Air War Against Hitler's Germany" that was in my elementary school library when I was a kid in the early 1980's. I was the only one that checked it out...over and over again. When I left for the 5th grade, the librarian just gave it to me.Just this past Fall, I got to go to the Udvar-Hazy complex of the Air & Space Museum. What a visit; I stayed all day long. To me, it wasn't that they had great examples of airplanes I'd only read about before, they had the famous ones. It wasn't just a B-29, it was "Enola Gay". It wasn't just an OS2U Kingfisher, it was one off the USS Indiana BB-58 that rescued downed pilots while under heavy artillery fire (the pilot earned the Navy Cross for that). It wasn't just an F-14, it was the one that shot down a MiG in 1989. It wasn't just any SPAD XVI, it was Gen. Billy Mitchell's SPAD from WWI. Crazy the amount of history in that hanger.
Anyways, relating trains to this, did you know that the New Haven's "Comet" trainset was built by an airship company? Yep, Goodyear-Zepplin. It was the first train ever designed in a windtunnel. The NH would have ordered more if it wasn't the depths of the Great Depression and then that whole WWII thing happened (hard to import German engineers for some strange reason...).
I'm a big fan of the Collings Foundation (http://www.collingsfoundation.org/) based here in Massachusetts in Stow, MA. They fly a B-17, a B-24, a B-25, and a TP-51 around the USA every year you can get rides in (even running a "Bomber Camp"). They also have a Vietnam flight out of Texas that flies an F-4 Phanton, an F-100 Super Sabre, and an A-4 Skyhawk. They are going through a massive new expansion of their display space in Stow that should be very interesting when done.
In addition to the flying history tours, they also have a bunch of warbirds flying or on display. One of which is the last flying Pearl Harbor survior, a P-40B Warhawk; another is one of the two last PT-17 Stearmans used by the Tuskegee Airmen. Then throw in a TBM, FM-2, F4U, A-36, ME-262, Spitfire IX, T-33, and an A-1E, and you've got quite a warbird collection (and more coming).Speaking of Collings, I was at their local stop of the WWII tour in my neck-of-the-woods when I saw an old gentleman wearing a Tuskegee Airman hat and jacket standing near the B-25. One of my fellow model railroad club members named Jack Bryant (now deceased) was a former Tuskegee Airman (even brought in his Presidential Gold Medal), so I went over to the individual and said, "Excuse me, sir. Do you know Jack Bryant?" The guy looks at me and says, "Know him? I just had lunch with him yesterday!" He asked how I knew Jack, and I said we're both in the same model railroad club. "Really?," he said. "Hey, I've got a DCC question for you." Next thing I know, he whips out his smartphone and starts showing me pictures of his layout.I spent the next 30 minutes talking model trains at an airshow with a Tuskegee Airman. Pretty good day, right there.
Hey, in the interest of equal time, how's about a little rotary-engine Fokker Triplane action? The narration's "auf Deutsch" but the visuals are darn good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90SGaZaZjCc
Where they're finding rotary engines for these replicas mystifys me. Fifty years ago Cole Palen, the founder of the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, said it wasn't too much of a problem, a lot more engines than airplanes were built during World War One so finding one wasn't too difficult if you knew where to look.
But 100 years later? I don't know how they do it.
I saw a hawk last Saturday.. at Bayview Junction.
Firelock, they are actually building new ones. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/oberursel-engine/oberursel-ur-ii-rotary-engine-build-history
MikeFF Firelock, they are actually building new ones. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/oberursel-engine/oberursel-ur-ii-rotary-engine-build-history
Mike, I just read that article you linked. Incredible! Unbelieveable!
That New Zealand crowd continues to amaze. If they decided to build those engines for sale I wonder what they'd cost?
It is gratifying to see the British Commonweath countries are taking the World War One era and anniversary with a lot more seriousness than we are here in the US. Everything else that's happened here since then has pushed the First World War and the men that fought it off the public consiousness a lot faster than it should have been. Sad.
I just watched that Fokker Triplane video again, it's a sheer delight to see one of those airplanes in the hands of a master who knows how to get the most out of it, and I was struck by a thought or two.
The military-historian-former-Marine in me knows the First World War was a blood-soaked horror that didn't need to happen. I know airplanes like the Fokkers and the Sopwiths and others were, despite their toy-like appearance, weapons of war meant to kill. But still, there's just something magic about them that can't be denied. And the magic persists to this day.
Ulrich I saw a hawk last Saturday.. at Bayview Junction.
I saw a hawk myself a few weeks ago, or actually, he saw me!
I was taking out the garbage and Mr. Hawkie flew right past my head! I even felt the wind from his wings! Good flyer too, he missed me!
"What was that, a Stuka?"
We do see hawks fairly often, it's amazing how all the other wildlife in our backyard disappears when there's one around. We know hawks have to eat too, we just don't want them eating anyone we know like our resident squirrels, chipmunks, or bunny rabbits!
Firelock76We do see hawks fairly often, it's amazing how all the other wildlife in our backyard disappears when there's one around. We know hawks have to eat too, we just don't want them eating anyone we know like our resident squirrels, chipmunks, or bunny rabbits!
I never noticed hawks, not to mention other birds/wildlife, that much when I was out and about until a friend involved with a local outdoor center would mention how many she'd seen on a recent trip from "here to there." Now I have another friend who knows where many of the eagle nests are in the area, so I see them, too.
Don't know who, but apparently "someone" found the squirrels that visited my feeder all last winter over the summer. None of them have returned this year.
Years ago, we spotted a young hawk sitting in a tree above our feeder. Apparently the "dickey birds" hadn't noticed and were still buzzing about. AFAIK, none of them fell prey that day.
Well, several years back Lady Firestorm got to see a little "nature in the raw" when what must have been a VERY hungry hawk took out a turkey buzzard!
Yep, there was Mr. Hawkie munching away on the buzzard in the next door neighbors yard while about 20 other buzzards were in the trees and on the fence and roofline having meltdowns!
Mr. Hawkie sure was full afterward, he left nothing behind but a carcass and a pile of feathers!
I once saw a bunch of vultures eating a dead cat on Jekyll Island in Georgia. They looked just like the ones I've seen in cartoons and movies; hunched shoulders, long beaks. Ugly damn things.
Ugly, all right, kind of like Stukas.
Getting back to the "warbird" theme...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuNhtSnLfF4
Of course, that vulturish look was part of the fear factor the Stuka generated, although whether that was intentional or not I'm not sure. Most German aircraft from WW2 seemed to have a sinister appearance.
Firelock76 It is gratifying to see the British Commonweath countries are taking the World War One era and anniversary with a lot more seriousness than we are here in the US. Everything else that's happened here since then has pushed the First World War and the men that fought it off the public consiousness a lot faster than it should have been. Sad.
The aftermath of WW1 left a bitter aftertaste for many Americans after the Armistice and the peace treaties. There was a general belief that while the United States may not have been able to avoid the war, the war should have somehow avoided us. The isolationism so prevalent in the interwar period may have been one of the side effects of a conflict that showed that war is NOT glorious.
Firelock76 Ugly, all right, kind of like Stukas. Getting back to the "warbird" theme... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuNhtSnLfF4 Of course, that vulturish look was part of the fear factor the Stuka generated, although whether that was intentional or not I'm not sure. Most German aircraft from WW2 seemed to have a sinister appearance.
The V-1 BUZZ Bomb by the nature of its motor (on/off propulsion system) was generally a terror weapon...Noisey in flight, but silenced when dropping to the trarget area, silently, to explode without warning.
The V-1 did not drop silently, the buzz of its pulse-jet engine did give a short warning (a matter of seconds) before it detonated. The V-2, on the other hand, did not give an advance warning after it re-entered the atmosphere.
CSSHEGEWISCH The V-1 did not drop silently, the buzz of its pulse-jet engine did give a short warning (a matter of seconds) before it detonated. The V-2, on the other hand, did not give an advance warning after it re-entered the atmosphere.
As I'd heard the same thing, I looked it up. Apparently the early V-1's did drop silently from the sky, but that was a design fault. It was fixed and the rest did power in.
That's why they called them "buzz-bombs." The British developed tactics to shoot them down, one Tempest pilot would put his wing tip under the wing of a V-1 and flip it, thus screwing up it's gyros and it would crash short of the target.
the JU-87 would have almost been welcome if instead of a siren, they played this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkiFi9dNAEM
I believe that one of the first assignments of the Gloster Meteor was defense against the V-1s.
Hello BobI saw your post today and a light bulb came on,so I went to mylibrary ( a 1932 steamer trunk) and found my copy of Air Force units of combat groups (heavy) namely308thBOMBARDMENT Group (NON SIBI SBD SED ALIIS) The book says ,station at Davis Monthan 20 June1942. Your grouphad 2DUCs quite impressive. This book came from the Dept. of the Air Force so it must be right~~~~~IZZZAT right. I just wanted you to know I remember all the sacrifices that took place in those times. My Brother in law was in the 11th. airbourn he was one of the lucky ones who landed in the trees and did not get killed by the enemy , he got 2 Japs before they could get him . He passed on in 1952.
Best wishes to you. Respectfully, Cannonball
The Brits had a saying about the V-2, "If you heard it, it hadn't hit you, but if it hit you, you never heard it."
An absolutely terrifying weapon, and it did bring London close to cracking, but in the end it did no good. Albert Speer said the money and effort spent on the V-2 would have been better spent on anti-aircraft missles, which the Germans were well along in developing.
Cannonball,
They held the distance record/flight record for longest missions in WW2 until the B-29s showed up. Balikpapan was nearly 16 hours from Austrailia and 13 hours from Mindoro, PI. All over water.
Firelock76The Brits had a saying about the V-2, "If you heard it, it hadn't hit you, but if it hit you, you never heard it."
You had to keep alert and watch the sky for the ascending contrail, a long straight white line up to brennschluss. I'd expect at least some of the air-raid wardens became quite expert at reacting to this sign. Of course, in poor or cloudy weather (and perhaps at night) your first indication of supersonic re-entry might be, as Thomas Pynchon said, the tip of the rocket on the top of your head...
Imagine the fun with more than a 2000lb explosive payload, though. No amount of V2 production even deployed reasonably TOT would likely top the terror of the night Churchill 'opened the Window'... and yes, had Speer's advice been taken, there might have been fewer planes and far less incentive for that kind of incendiary raid.
A GI correspondant for "Stars and Stripes" named Ralph G. Martin summed up the V-2 perfectly. It "...came out of the soundlessness of nowhere."
Ever read Martin's book "The GI War?" Published in the late 60's it's an absolute masterpiece. Find it if you can, and don't ever let it get away.
No! You can't have mine!
Firelock76 A GI correspondant for "Stars and Stripes" named Ralph G. Martin summed up the V-2 perfectly. It "...came out of the soundlessness of nowhere." Ever read Martin's book "The GI War?" Published in the late 60's it's an absolute masterpiece. Find it if you can, and don't ever let it get away. No! You can't have mine!
Sorry Johnny, you'll have to find your own!
But I will give everyone a sample...
From Ralph G. Martin's "The GI War," this takes place after Allied forces have rolled into Germany, and have discovered "...the heart of darkness..."
He was a mealy-mouthed runty guy, and he hit the floor every few minutes, every time the GI hit him. The soldier would pick him up, sock him a few times and let him fall, then pick him up and do it all over again. The runty guy was a scientist who had helped invent the V-bombs.
They found him in a huge underground factory set up at Nordhausen with a half dozen corridors a kilometer long sliced by several dozen other corridors, all air-conditioned and lit by fluorescent light. Some of the V-bombs were still in the assembling stage.
...Those hundreds of kids back in London lined up around the building with their mothers, waiting to get into the store, because they were selling ice cream again after so many years and so many kids had never had any ice cream before...
And then the V-2 bomb coming out of the soundlessness of nowhere blasting kids into pieces for blocks around.
The photographer said to the GI, "Would you please lift that runt up again once more and sock him again so I can get a picture of it?"
"The pleasure's all mine," said the soldier.
Isn't that something? After reading that for the first time almost 50 years ago from that day to this guess what's the first thing I think of when I see a film of a V-2 launch?
I've never thought about this until just now, but how were the control cables handled on carrier airplanes with folding wings in the pre fly-by-wire age?
On Pregnant Guppies and such with a hinged tail or nose that swings open to facilitate loading and unloading cargo, the crew has to physically disconnect and reconnect all these cables. Obviously that wasn't the case with the aileron control cables on something like a TBM Avenger though...
Leo_AmesI've never thought about this until just now, but how were the control cables handled on carrier airplanes with folding wings in the pre fly-by-wire age?
MY GUESS - the cables were long enough when a control in the cockpit was operated to allow the wings to be folded. The control, when activated would change the fulcrum point that allowed the cables to perform their intended function when the wings were flight ready.
Yes Norm, even after all these years. Do you remember what the letters the pilots used ment( IFRR) and ( IFR) ? I do.
BaltACD Leo_Ames I've never thought about this until just now, but how were the control cables handled on carrier airplanes with folding wings in the pre fly-by-wire age? MY GUESS - the cables were long enough when a control in the cockpit was operated to allow the wings to be folded. The control, when activated would change the fulcrum point that allowed the cables to perform their intended function when the wings were flight ready.
Leo_Ames I've never thought about this until just now, but how were the control cables handled on carrier airplanes with folding wings in the pre fly-by-wire age?
Regarding the V-1s, I was in London a few years ago in the Hammersmith area. I got talking to a man and we started talking about the blitz. He said, "Do you notice all the parks and open spaces in this area? It's because info was passed to German agents that the V-1s were landing short of their targets, mainly central London, so they were programmed to fly a little further and landed on Hammersmith." Interesting, I must say.
Interesting. Is it true? Who knows? Since the British had a hard time with the V-1's and couldn't stop the V-2's at all it would make sense for them to try and trick the Germans into sending them into less vital areas. Cold-blooded, but in wartime you do what you have to do, as unpleasant as it is.
Anyone remember the movie "The Desert Fox" with James Mason as Rommel? Here's Adolf explaining the V-bombs to the field marshal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=185vCvsvEP8
A great film, I need to see it again. On Chandos Place in London, near Covent Garden is an excellent pub called "The Harp." On a wall near the back is a painting of a young James Mason holding a Siamese cat. There's also another painting of a 16 year old Elizabeth Taylor in a low-cut gown. Yow! But I'm just there for the beer!
Firelock76 Sorry Johnny, you'll have to find your own! But I will give everyone a sample... From Ralph G. Martin's "The GI War," this takes place after Allied forces have rolled into Germany, and have discovered "...the heart of darkness..." He was a mealy-mouthed runty guy, and he hit the floor every few minutes, every time the GI hit him. The soldier would pick him up, sock him a few times and let him fall, then pick him up and do it all over again. The runty guy was a scientist who had helped invent the V-bombs. They found him in a huge underground factory set up at Nordhausen with a half dozen corridors a kilometer long sliced by several dozen other corridors, all air-conditioned and lit by fluorescent light. Some of the V-bombs were still in the assembling stage. ...Those hundreds of kids back in London lined up around the building with their mothers, waiting to get into the store, because they were selling ice cream again after so many years and so many kids had never had any ice cream before... And then the V-2 bomb coming out of the soundlessness of nowhere blasting kids into pieces for blocks around. The photographer said to the GI, "Would you please lift that runt up again once more and sock him again so I can get a picture of it?" "The pleasure's all mine," said the soldier. Isn't that something? After reading that for the first time almost 50 years ago from that day to this guess what's the first thing I think of when I see a film of a V-2 launch?
BOB WITHORN Cannonball, They held the distance record/flight record for longest missions in WW2 until the B-29s showed up. Balikpapan was nearly 16 hours from Austrailia and 13 hours from Mindoro, PI. All over water.
My late father was in the Australian Army at Balikpapan. He took photographs of the rather stunned local population after the Japanese had been driven out. He also photographed an amphibious landing from the troopship (he was an anti-aircraft gunner, so presumably landed later). He got some photos of a Japanese surrender ceremony on an Allied ship, which looked much like the one in Tokyo Bay, just with less senior officers....
Peter
Peter,
On that is cool, small world.
My father was with the 380th in 1945. He flew a couple missions on Balikpapan in June of 1945, the 26th and the 30th. He was scheduled to fly on the 22nd, but a takeoff crash by another B24 took out his #4 prop. July 1st was the last mission. The 380th had a very critical T.O.T. of 0820-0830. This was to fit all the bomb groups in before the Australian army began landing shortly after bombing stopped. The 380th flew 15 days in a row on Balikpapan, June 17th through July 1st. 1945.
edit: to keep it rail, he had several missions bombing the Saigon rail yards and the rail bridges in Indo China.
I've done the entire Harz narrow gauge system a few years ago. Do you like steam-powered trains?
BOB WITHORNCSSHEGEWISCH, I like the 367th F/S patch. Am I correct that it was reactivated a couple years ago with F16's?
It's one of the better patches. My dad was 531st sq. and wore a Donald Duck holding an old fashion fuse bomb.
BOB WITHORN It's one of the better patches. My dad was 531st sq. and wore a Donald Duck holding an old fashion fuse bomb.
C.S. Forester wrote the use of bombs in the Baltic in his book, Commodore Hornblower.
At the old U.S. Embassy in London at Grosvenor Square is a guard shack. On it is a pictogram sign saying what is not allowed in the building, like no smoking or photography or pets or bombs. The bomb is one of those round, anarchist types with a fuse sticking out. I laughed like hell when I saw that and the guards gave me a dirty look. So, if you go to the embassy, please leave all bombs in the parking lot.
Pretty much. Disney designed it for them in 1943 using Donald Duck and a cartoon bomb. It looks like a small bowling with a lit fuse sticking out. I have no clue how to insert a photo, sorry.
edit: just changed the avatar to the 531st patch, I think.
Well done. We now have B-17 and B-24 units covered. Now if we can find someone willing to post the patch for RAF 617 Squadron.
CSSHEGEWISCH Well done. We now have B-17 and B-24 units covered. Now if we can find someone willing to post the patch for RAF 617 Squadron.
Let's try this:
From an unofficial RAF history page.
The Dam Busters!
Go get 'em Wing Commander Gibson!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1DCxpMz8aU
And what a magnificent airplane!
Sorry, but a B-17 is much better looking.
Almost as good as a B-24!!
CSSHEGEWISCH Sorry, but a B-17 is much better looking.
Now now, just because I called the Lancaster a magnificent airplane, which it is, it DOESN'T mean I dislike the B-17, far from it! I LOVE the B-17! I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.
The B-24? Eh, I guess it's ok. At any rate, the Air Force never loved the B-24 the way they loved the B-17, and if aviation historian Col. Walter Boyne is to be believed the Air Force never loved the B-29 the way they loved the B-17 either.
I forget where I read this, but supposedly if the bugs couldn't have been worked out of the B-29, and there were plenty of them, the Air Force was seriously considering having Lancasters built here in the US under license for use in the Pacific, they were very impressed with the Lanc's range and load carrying abilities.
Of course, it didn't happen, but it's something to speculate on.
Anyway, I don't have any familial connections with any of the aforementioned aircraft. I DID have two uncles who were aircrewmen on C-47's, which is probably the greatest aircraft of all time!
Go get 'em, Gooney Bird!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eupCt2XSRPw
Firelock76 The B-24? Eh, I guess it's ok. At any rate, the Air Force never loved the B-24 the way they loved the B-17, and if aviation historian Col. Walter Boyne is to be believed the Air Force never loved the B-29 the way they loved the B-17 either.
Interesting thing is that the B-24 had a larger bomb load, longer range and was a bit faster than the B-17. It was also produced in larger numbers that the B-17, in part because it was easier to make due to the fuselage containing many flat surfaces. Note that the B-25 and P-51 were also designed with flat sides on the fuselage for ease of manufacture.
The downside was that the B-24 got the improved performance from the Davis wing (airfoil) which did not react as well to battle damage as the coarser airfoil used on the B-17. The B-17 earned its reputation where the air defense was heaviest, i.e. over central Europe, but was second fiddle in the Pacific where range was king.
A lot of the bugs with the B-29 were with the engine, with original magnesium Cyclones being infamous for catching fire. The bugs in the rest of the plane were largely worked out in the B-50, though the Wasp Major had plenty of issues of its own.
While the Lanc's had impressive range and load carrying abilities, the range was not in the same league as the B-29. The B-29 was pressurized, which made it a much more comfortable plane to be in for long flights at 30,000'. I'm pretty sure the B-29 was faster than the Lanc, which in combination with service ceiling was important for the final missions of the war. In the late 1940's, the B-29 was the top of the line bomber for the USAF, RAF and the Soviet air force (in the form of the Tu-4).
Firelock76 CSSHEGEWISCH Sorry, but a B-17 is much better looking. Now now, just because I called the Lancaster a magnificent airplane, which it is, it DOESN'T mean I dislike the B-17, far from it! I LOVE the B-17! I just believe in giving credit where credit is due. The B-24? Eh, I guess it's ok. At any rate, the Air Force never loved the B-24 the way they loved the B-17, and if aviation historian Col. Walter Boyne is to be believed the Air Force never loved the B-29 the way they loved the B-17 either. I forget where I read this, but supposedly if the bugs couldn't have been worked out of the B-29, and there were plenty of them, the Air Force was seriously considering having Lancasters built here in the US under license for use in the Pacific, they were very impressed with the Lanc's range and load carrying abilities. Of course, it didn't happen, but it's something to speculate on. Anyway, I don't have any familial connections with any of the aforementioned aircraft. I DID have two uncles who were aircrewmen on C-47's, which is probably the greatest aircraft of all time! Go get 'em, Gooney Bird! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eupCt2XSRPw
One reason the crews loved the B-17 more than the B-24 was that the B-17 could get home with damage that would have knocked a B-24 out of the sky. The B-17 controlled everything possible electrically while the B-24 controlled more things hydraulically. The electric wiring survived flak damage better than the hydraulic lines, which meant the B-17 was more likely to be controllable when damaged. Or, so I have read.
Ernest K. Gann, who wrote several aviation-themed novels, flew several types of cargo aircraft during WWII and wrote a book about his experiences. He flew C-47's, C-87's(?), which were the cargo version of the B-24, and I think C-54's, which were the cargo version of the DC-4. He said, in these words or something close to them, "The C-87 couldn't carry enough ice to chill a highball". My guess is that that inability was related to the wing, not that I know anything about aerodynamics.
My last little nugget is this: many of the B-24's and its variants built for WWII were built by Ford Motor Co. in a plant in Willow Run, MI, which it also built under contract to the Government. Edsel Ford, Henry's son, was put in charge of that effort, and the stress led to the ulcers which killed him. After WWII, the Willow Run plant was leased to Kaiser for building cars. After Kaiser left, General Motors leased or bought the plant and used it for many years.
One of the reasons that Liberator production numbers are relatively high is that the Navy ordered a lot of PB4Y's for anti-submarine patrol when they realized that a long-range land-based plane was better for the job than flying boats.
Depends on the mission...
For close in ASW, the PBY had the advantage of longer loiter times. For long range ASW, the PB4Y had longer range, a higher speed (less time getting to/from the patrol area) and a larger bombload.
As for B-17 vs PB4Y: One of the planned roles for the B-17 was maritime patrol, there was a demo flight of that capability conducted in 1937 where 3 B-17's flew to a passenger liner 700 miles out. Presumably the USN went for the PB4Y over the B-17 because of the higher speed, longer range and potentially lower cost to manufacture. Another possible reason is that the PB4Y used Twin Wasps, as did the PBY.
CSSHEGEWISCH One of the reasons that Liberator production numbers are relatively high is that the Navy ordered a lot of PB4Y's for anti-submarine patrol when they realized that a long-range land-based plane was better for the job than flying boats.
You know, the Navy tried to get their hands on some B-29's for long-range anti-submarine patrolling as well but the Air Force said "No way!" and the War Department backed them up. Wise decision, the Air Force needed them all for the aerial assault on Japan and couldn't afford to be generous, not in this case anyway.
I'd say one way of determining just what the Air Force thought of a particular aircraft type can be demonstrated by just how fast they disappeared from the inventory after the war. The B-24's (except for the C-87 variant), the B26's, A-20's, and fighter types such as the P-38, P-39, and P-40 were gone almost overnight. P-47's went into Air National Guard squadrons but were eventually replaced by P-51's. The B-17's (although certainly not all of them) hung on a bit longer for various uses. The B-25's lasted until the late '50s. The B-29's became the first-line heavy bomber so of course they stayed in inventory.
Say, let's move this in a slightly different direction. Using the criterion of excellence of design, ability to handle all the missions given it (and then some), and longevity, what do you think (everyone now!) are the greatest aircraft of all time? One thing, the aircraft have STILL to be in service, somewhere. Not "come and gone" or preserved as historic pieces.
My choices?
1) The Douglas DC-3/ C-47
2) The Boeing B-52
3) The Lockheed C-130
4) The Bell UH-1 "Huey" helicopter
5) The Piper J-4 "Cub"
Thoughts anyone?
I have no issue with the DC-3 or the L-100 (C-130). Both were successful in a wide variety of conditions.
I'm surprised that you put the B-52 on this list but not the Tu-95. Both have had similar service careers but compared to the transports you mentioned, they didn't get a lot of flying hours. Longevity isn't everything.
Not sure about the UH-1. Almost any helicopter is too specialized to be truly multi-role and the AH-1 is virtually a different design.
I'd support the UH-1. They served in a variety of roles and were ubiquitous with Army Aviation. I'd imagine they are still flying somewhere.
How about the Boeing 707 - are there any still flying?
It helped that Ford built an automotive style production line to build them. In WW2 in the Sou. Pac., they did use the B-17, they stuck a boat/raft under them and called them a 'JUKEBOX', for S.A.R. The PBY's, called 'PLAYMATES' would typically pair up with one and orbit over a rescue submarine at a spot in the ocean for the B-24 crews. Dad said that they could feather a prop and walk away from a B-17, unless the B-24 was loaded, then they were too busy jettisioning bombs to stay in the air. There were MANY trips were B-24's came home on 3 engines after jettisoning bombs, even one where one got back to base on 2 after getting one restarted.
C130--no contest. C47/DC3 in second.
CSS', I'll have to concede the point on Comrade Tupolev's Tu-95, that one completely slipped my mind, I should have included that one.
Backshop, I won't argue C-130 versus DC-3, this whole excercise is supposed to be in fun, BUT, let's see which type stays around and flying the longest!
By the way, Huey pilots, my brother being one of them, have a saying...
"When the last Blackhawk goes to the boneyard, it'll be in a sling under a Huey!"
Tree68, I know John Travolta owns a Boeing 707 which he flies on a regular basis. The Air Force's KC-135 aerial tanker is basically a 707. If there's any 707's still left in commercial service I'm not aware of them. There could be.
The KC-135s were actually a shorter version of the B-707 as they were built first. The airforce cancelled some KC-135s after production was on line and Boeing sold them as a passenger B-720 . Eastern airlines bought 15 B-720s unknown who else bought B-720s .
The airforce bought a bunch of JTD3-D turbo fans from retired aircraft mainly B-707 upgrades the various airlines had over the years and replaced them all on their KC-135 water wagons. Later airforce installed GE CFM-56s on some -135s whic are real performers. Full load 135s can take off on much shorter runways with the CFMs.
blue streak 1The KC-135s were actually a shorter version of the B-707 as they were built first. The airforce cancelled some KC-135s after production was on line and Boeing sold them as a passenger B-720 . Eastern airlines bought 15 B-720s unknown who else bought B-720s . The airforce bought a bunch of JTD3-D turbo fans from retired aircraft mainly B-707 upgrades the various airlines had over the years and replaced them all on their KC-135 water wagons. Later airforce installed GE CFM-? on some -135s whic are real performers. Full load 135s can take off on much shorter runways with the CFMs.
The airforce bought a bunch of JTD3-D turbo fans from retired aircraft mainly B-707 upgrades the various airlines had over the years and replaced them all on their KC-135 water wagons. Later airforce installed GE CFM-? on some -135s whic are real performers. Full load 135s can take off on much shorter runways with the CFMs.
Kansas Air National Guard has several KC-135's in their arsnel at Forbes Field in Topeka. When I race at Heartland Motorsports Park I sometimes get to watch our tax dollars at play as the KANG practices touch an goes at Forbes Field. For the touch and goes I am certain the planes are not carrying their full fuel load.
My hubby has a close friend that is in the US Navy as a bubblehead as he calls him. He serves on a Fast Attack boat according to my better half. His friend one night while on the beach home from patrol was saying they were being tracked by a T-95 in the Atlantic. At least the T-95 was trying to track them. The sonar crew had a better fix on the plane than the plane had on them. He said we were cruising at 20 knots 600 feet down and we could hear that sucker thru the hull. The closest that the Bear got to them was 50 miles.
As for the 720 question United had a few of them they used them between the Continential US and Hawaii.
I believe the E-3 Sentry fleet utilizes a 707 airframe rather than the C-135 design, as do several other Air Force models like the E-6 Mercury.
And several retired 707's were used more than just as engine donors by the Air Force. The E-8 Joint STARS fleet uses 2nd hand 707's bought from airlines.
And John Travolta retired and donated his 707. He donated it to a museum and I believe it's being restored to airworthiness by them for a ferry flight to Australia after sitting for a few years.
Iran had at least one 707 in passenger service until recently, but I saw a headline a year or so ago about its last flight. I bet some remain in limited service though as cargo freighters, but the list can't be long between age and the decimation of late model 707's when the Air Force snapped up so many back in the 1980's.
CSSHEGEWISCHI'm surprised that you put the B-52 on this list but not the Tu-95. Both have had similar service careers but compared to the transports you mentioned, they didn't get a lot of flying hours. Longevity isn't everything.
The active USAF B-52 inventory has it beat in one area though. The newest B-52H dates to 1962, over 55 years ago.
The active fleet of Tu-95 in Russian inventory all date to the 1980's and early 1990's, with I believe 1984 being when the first production Tu-95MS was built.
So no Bear flying for the Russian military today is going to be older than 1984 at the most. Great longevity of design like the C-130, but individual airframe age in the active fleet is decades younger than the B-52 fleet.
blue streak 1 The KC-135s were actually a shorter version of the B-707 as they were built first.
The KC-135s were actually a shorter version of the B-707 as they were built first.
Aren't KC-135's narrower, too? The Dash 80 prototype could only accomodate five-abreast seating. So the design as seen with the KC-135 was widened to accomodate six-abreast.
But I believe a major launch customer for the 707 demanded an even further increase as a response to the DC-8 design specifications, forcing a lot of retooling.
One of the reasons that the Tu-95 is so loud is based on the fact that it is a turboprop. The contra-rotating propellers are so large that the blade tips are supersonic at normal operating speeds.
Don't sell the Tu-95 short just because there is more recent production than the B-52. The C-130 is still in production and I don't think that there are too many pre-1965 examples still in service.
All I meant is that it's one distinction that isn't shared between the two when one compares them.
And that's why I said C-130. Like the Tu-95, it has been around for decades and production of enhanced versions of the original design lasted into the 1990's (Today's J model Super Hercules is in essence a fresh design).
Yet like the Tu-95 fleet, active C-130's in most of the world's militaries are newer. Other than perhaps a handful in 3rd world nations, the first decade of C-130 production is extinct from the active military inventory. I doubt the US for instance is flying anything today older than the H model, and I wouldn't be surprised if none of the H model C-130 airframes active in the American military were older than about 1975.
Anyways, here's at least one civilian operator of the Boeing 707, albeit utilized to support military customers.
http://www.omegaairrefueling.com/what-we-do
Very interesting, gentleman. Hence my statement of the DC-3/ C-47 being in the Number One spot of great aircraft. There hasn't been any of those built since 1945 and there's still some out there doing what they were built to do and still earning their keep doing what they were built to do.
As CSS said, longevity isn't everything but it's a pretty darn good yardstick in my estimation. That humble old "Gooney Bird," even better than Donald Douglas and his boys ever dreamed it would be. And you know what they say...
"The only replacement for a DC-3 is another DC-3!"
A personal note. When I was with the Second Marine Air Wing in the 1970's at Cherry Point NC the Wing was still operating the C-117 variant of the DC-3. We called them "Hummers," since the jets screamed but the "Hummers" hummed. Service with the Hummer squadron was considered a "Siberia" for Marine pilots, but the Hummer jockeys considered it a "well-kept secret," they loved that old bird!
Here's a picture of the last one flying from 1992.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:C-117D_US_Marine_Corps_final_flight_1992.JPEG
Alittle Railroad Airline History: Santa Fe Skyways ?
YEP! formed by AT&SFRR in 1946. HQ was in Wichita, Ks. Aircraft were Surplus 4ea C-54's (military version of the DC-4), and a couple of C-46's ( Curtiss Comando). There is not much written about this operation; and some confusion as to the two engined aircraft (one might have been a C-47 ( military version of the DC-3(?).
It was started as a cargo carrier, and flew approximately 2 million miles while it flew; It was shut down by the CAB(Civil Aviation Board) in 1947/48(?). The airline had started operations on a temporary flight certificate, and it was terminated in 1947/48(?).
Regulators were afraid of AT&SF becoming monopolistic(?). It was not only a railroad, but a bus line(Santa Fe Trailways), a truck line (Santa Fe??).
At one point, I had read that the railroad had envisioned their airline to be lined up with service on one of the overnight Pullman trains.Passengers would have a Pullman berth at night, and then transfer to fly during the day(?). [No good source on that last piece of information.]
The cargo was flown from the LA area via 'the Valley', picking up fresh product in Salinas; onto a stop in Amarillo (refuel?), and then to Chicago. Apparently, the C-54's were equiped to keep the fruit and vegies chilled(?)
About the same time that CAB shut down Santa Fe Skyways, they also put an end to Missouri Pacific's Eagle Airline(?). And at one point, Southern Pacific flew from the west coast to Hawaii, as a 'one ticket' convenience(?), from LA, and SFO (?).
[Remember as well, Burlington Northern Air Freight,as founded, it was a wholley- owned carrier of BNRR, was operated out of their 'Hub" in Ft. Wayne,In. It was started in early 1970's(72?), and has been through a number of ownership changes, and is now BAX Global, a part of Schenker Logistics.]
Northeast Airlines (since absorbed by Delta), was originally Boston-Maine Airways, a subsidiary of B&M.
North Central Airlines (later Republic, then part of Northwest, also part of Delta) was Wisconsin Central Airlines, a subsidiary of WC/SOO. A bit of irony, Metra's suburban route on the former Soo Line is called the North Central Service.
samfp1943A little Railroad Airline History:
I recall reading about an early joint railroad/air operations wherein passengers flew by day and travelled by train at night.
tree68 samfp1943 A little Railroad Airline History: I recall reading about an early joint railroad/air operations wherein passengers flew by day and travelled by train at night.
samfp1943 A little Railroad Airline History:
I remember reading about that as well. If I remember correctly east of the Mississippi it was a joint effort between the PRR and Transcontinental Air Transport (TAT), later to become Trans-Western Airlines (TWA). Later on Trans-Western became Trans-World, the TWA most of us remember.
West of the Mississippi I'm not sure who handled the railroad portion.
[T-A-T]Firelock 76: Your memory is pretty close!
Starting in July of 1929 the PRR would by railroad, take passengers from NYC to Columbus,Oh. At Columbus they would board a Ford Trimotor aircraf [T-A-T] for the day flight to Indianapolis, St.Louis, Kansas City, Wichita,, and finally to Waynoka, Ok.: where the passengers would bord a Santa Fe Train for the overnight run to Clovis,NM.
There(Clovis,NM.) boarding a second TAT tri-motor, would continue on to Albuquerque,NM, Winslow,Az., and then on to LA or San Francisco.
Their operational slogan:" Harnessing the plane, and the iron horse"
The fare from NYC to California was $338.00, and included a lower berth on the overnight rail parts of the trip.
I was told by a local man at the Wichita Air Museum, the Santa Fe Skyways wanted to copy the TAT parts of the trip(?). But apparently, those plans were not relized when the CAB pulled the temporary operating permit of SF Skyways(?) in 1947(or 48)?.
There is, apparently, no accurate, written record of the story of the Santa Fe Skyways, available now. Pictures of their aircraft are not widely available, and exist only as photos of models, and depictions in computer programs; individual oral histories but nothing researched or provded with solid information (?).
Kansas Historical Society(Topeka) does have some black&White photos of a couple of their aircraft, and some cockpit interior photos; but not much else seems to be available.
Frankly surprised no one has mentioned the aircraft that has most critically changed the air transport industry, the Boeing 747.
I don't think any single airframe had anywhere near the number of hours/miles on it than the one that was Braniff 'Big Orange'. Perhaps by one or more orders of magnitude. Admittedly this was due to synthetic operating conditions, like those used in Kiefer's Niagara-E7 comparison, but since we see so many people continuing to use that comparison as a modern defense of steam, perhaps its artificiality can be overlooked in respecting the technical achievement.
Flies nicely inverted for several minutes, by test; the limiting factor being some of the lubrication systems on the engine. Main airfoil is symmetrical, even if the dihedral is wrong. Don't try this with too many other planes.
The Boeing 747, good Lord, how did I forget that one? Right you are, Overmod!
Thanks Sam! Sometimes I wonder just how good my memory is, considering just how much useless knowledge I've got packed in the ol' "brain housing group."
And speaking of that "train and plane" collaboration, PRR calender artist Grif Teller did a calender painting on that very subject called "Giant Conquerors of Time and Space," and here it is...
http://www.artcom.com/Museums/newones/17579.htm Scroll down a bit for it.
I also remember Leon Russell being described as a "Master of Time and Space" on a Joe Cocker album, but of course that's not germane to this discussion!
The DC-3/C-47 is even still in US military service these days. The USAF bought a Basler turboprop conversion a few years ago for the 6th Special Operations Squadron.
"The best replacement for a DC-3 is another DC-3!" Indeed!
I did some research, and the USAF 6th Special Operations Squadron phased out that DC-3, actually a Basler BT-67, in 2008.
I'm sure it's missed, and I'm equally sure it's found a good home.
These two were not warbirds but one of them could be a powerful "warchicken", another one was one of the most interesting "ironbird" I really like:
RC SCALE FLYING BOAT DORNIER DO X
Lun-class ekranoplan, a warchicken? Starting from 2m22s
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Thanks for those videos Mr. Jones, very entertaining!
You know, if the original DO-X performed as well as that superb model Dr. Dornier would have been a happy man indeed! And the operator did some great flying with it!
I remember seeing a show about the "Ekranoplan" on the History Channel a few years back. More of a high-speed surface transport than an aircraft if I remember correctly the concept was good, but what killed it was it was only good for use in fairly calm seas, in heavy weather it was no use at all. Interesting machine though. And that commentator's right, don't underestimate the Russians, they're a pretty innovative people.
You are welcome, Firelock! Glad to know you like these videos. I always interested in machines or ideas which is massive, powerful but not 100% practical. Imagine I am a multi-billionaire, I would convert the Ekranoplan or DO-X into a private yacht or provide passenger service between Miami and New York in good weather. I believe many people will want to try it. :P
I'm always interested in machines or ideas which are massive, powerful but not 100% practical...
Much better than the Ekranoplans was that other Bartini innovation fitting the criteria:
(Watch for the streamlined 2-8-4!)
Pity his student and protege Korolev got better funding ... just as the United States eschewed the B-70 not once but twice.
Those who know the Mars will appreciate some of the ... issues ... an A-57 might have even with modern engine materials.
If I remember correctly, the B-70 program was cancelled due to the rapid improvements in Soviet surface-to-air missle technology. High altitude and supersonic speed (which is what the B-70 was designed for) just wasn't a defense against the SAMs anymore.
Too bad, in a way. Those who flew the B-70 said it was a sweet-flying airplane.
Bartini? What happened to him serves him right! Italian and Communist when he should have been a good son of "Holy Mother The Church!" Mamma mia!
My grandmother would have cracked a rolling pin over his head!
PS: I don't blame him for being anti-Mussolini, Il Duce was a disaster.
Firelock76If I remember correctly, the B-70 program was cancelled due to the rapid improvements in Soviet surface-to-air missile technology.
They might hit something as pathetic-performing as a U2 but not a B-70, which was faster and, at altitude, more agile than an A-12.
What killed the B-70 was that rockets did the job better, faster, and cheaper. And inherently supported MIRV, and then MARV. Much the same reason the A-57 never got anywhere; Korolev's boosters worked perfectly on little more than kerosene and LOX to exceed mach 25.
In fact, I suspect the Semyorka/Vostok family deserves a spot on our list, as some version of it flew for nearly as long as I've been alive.
OvermodMuch better than the Ekranoplans was that other Bartini innovation fitting the criteria: (Watch for the streamlined 2-8-4!) Pity his student and protege Korolev got better funding ... just as the United States eschewed the B-70 not once but twice. Those who know the Mars will appreciate some of the ... issues ... an A-57 might have even with modern engine materials.
Some years ago, "Air & Space: Smithsonian" had a pretty good article about various ekranoplans. Most sailed on the Caspian Sea and seemed to be less of an aircraft then a modified ground effects vehicle.
In my opinion, among propeller planes, nothing says mean warbird better than a 109.
Overmod Firelock76 If I remember correctly, the B-70 program was cancelled due to the rapid improvements in Soviet surface-to-air missile technology. They might hit something as pathetic-performing as a U2 but not a B-70, which was faster and, at altitude, more agile than an A-12. What killed the B-70 was that rockets did the job better, faster, and cheaper.
Firelock76 If I remember correctly, the B-70 program was cancelled due to the rapid improvements in Soviet surface-to-air missile technology.
What killed the B-70 was that rockets did the job better, faster, and cheaper.
One huge advantage of the A-12 over the B-70 was radar cross section, the design spec for the A-12 RCS was for the detection range to be so short that there would not be enough time to launch the SAM's. The B-70 design inadvertently maximized RCS (similar to the B-52H), giving plenty of time to launch the SAM's (though the B-70 might have been able to dodge them given proper ECM).
The B-70 would have been the R/S-70 had it gone into production, with the next plane design called the R/S-71 - until LBJ dislexated that to SR-71, as with AMI becoming "A-11" (AMI actually being the F-12).
charlie hebdo In my opinion, among propeller planes, nothing says mean warbird better than a 109.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 was a mean looking airplane all right. As a matter of fact most German aircraft from World War Two have kind of a sinister appearance to them. I don't know if that was by accident or design, but it sure seemed to work out that way.
Matter of fact, here's one of those meanies brought back to life...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQpVpV2sUM8
Very wise of them too, flying it from a grass strip, that's what it was designed for.
While we're at it, how's about a six plane flyover of Junkers Ju-52's?
Relax, they left the Fallschirmjaeger back home!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GRSiTgL94
This past weekend there was an open house at McConnel AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10
Link to an article on the 'Frontiers of Flight' event @ https://www.kansas.com/news/business/aviation/article216766160.html
A
samfp1943This past weekend there was an open house at McConnel AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10
The differences in size between historic and modern aircraft can be stunning. A few years ago at an airshow here I was speaking to the C-5 crew who, it turned out, had carried a B-17 (wings detached) on their plane. The same goes for the side-by-side flight of an F-51 (a post-war designation of the P-51) and an F-18.
tree68 samfp1943 This past weekend there was an open house at McConnel AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10 The differences in size between historic and modern aircraft can be stunning. A few years ago at an airshow here I was speaking to the C-5 crew who, it turned out, had carried a B-17 (wings detached) on their plane. The same goes for the side-by-side flight of an F-51 (a post-war designation of the P-51) and an F-18.
samfp1943 This past weekend there was an open house at McConnel AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10
Had racing organization catered dinner a few years ago at the Combat Air Museum at Forbes Field in Topeka. They had a number of WW I and WW II fighters on display. It was amazing how small they all were - especially the WW I ones. You can look at pictures all you want - until you actually see the objects in relation to your own view of the world you can't comprehend what you are seeing in the pictures.
BaltACDuntil you actually see the objects in relation to your own view of the world you can't comprehend what you are seeing in the pictures.
Indeed - I toured the B-17 that was there - as big as they look in war movies, there wasn't much room. Of course, ball turrets are legendary for that, but I had problems getting my 6'5" frame into the nose.
One category that has so far been overlooked is small recognizance and bush planes. For that I would nominate both the De Havilland Beaver and Noorduyn Norseman. Production of both ended over 50 years ago and numerous radial-engined examples are still flying in commercial revenue service today.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-2_Beaver
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noorduyn_Norseman
I would agree with the 747 and C-130 Hercules in the passenger, cargo, and military categories.
Could the AC-130 gunship count as a fighter?
And guess what is the largest aircraft to ever land on a carrier:
http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/c130_forrestal.asp
"Look Ma, no hook!"
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
BaltACD tree68 samfp1943 This past weekend there was an open house at McConnell AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10 The differences in size between historic and modern aircraft can be stunning. A few years ago at an airshow here I was speaking to the C-5 crew who, it turned out, had carried a B-17 (wings detached) on their plane. The same goes for the side-by-side flight of an F-51 (a post-war designation of the P-51) and an F-18. Had racing organization catered dinner a few years ago at the Combat Air Museum at Forbes Field in Topeka. They had a number of WW I and WW II fighters on display. "It was amazing how small they all were - especially the WW I ones. You can look at pictures all you want - until you actually see the objects in relation to your own view of the world you can't comprehend what you are seeing in the pictures."
tree68 samfp1943 This past weekend there was an open house at McConnell AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10 The differences in size between historic and modern aircraft can be stunning. A few years ago at an airshow here I was speaking to the C-5 crew who, it turned out, had carried a B-17 (wings detached) on their plane. The same goes for the side-by-side flight of an F-51 (a post-war designation of the P-51) and an F-18.
samfp1943 This past weekend there was an open house at McConnell AFB, here. It was quite a display of aircraft. It was interesting to see a B-29(Doc), and a B1b parked on the ramp,a C-5. Jumbo 747 Dreamlifter, and C17 fly over along with a B-2 F-35 and A-10
Had racing organization catered dinner a few years ago at the Combat Air Museum at Forbes Field in Topeka. They had a number of WW I and WW II fighters on display. "It was amazing how small they all were - especially the WW I ones. You can look at pictures all you want - until you actually see the objects in relation to your own view of the world you can't comprehend what you are seeing in the pictures."
Last year there was an AN-224 landed at Wichita ( Eisenhower IAP) to load a cargo of crated Cessna planes ( to be used in pilot training?). It seemed to be an even bigger version of the one I walked into at Oshkosh some years back. Planes or Trains both fascinating.
SD70Dude One category that has so far been overlooked is small recognizance and bush planes. For that I would nominate both the De Havilland Beaver and Noorduyn Norseman. Production of both ended over 50 years ago and numerous radial-engined examples are still flying in commercial revenue service today. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-2_Beaver https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noorduyn_Norseman I would agree with the 747 and C-130 Hercules in the passenger, cargo, and military categories. Could the AC-130 gunship count as a fighter? And guess what is the largest aircraft to ever land on a carrier: http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/c130_forrestal.asp "Look Ma, no hook!"
I called and asked my BIL what he would consider the AC130 as. He goes if your on the reciving end from one you swear it is Hell raining down on you. If your the ones that called it in you think it is a angel from heaven itself raining fire on your enemy. 2 20mm cannons 2 40mm Bofors and a 105 howitzer that all can hit the same target. The only problem with the sucker is they have to use them no anti air can be in the area and they eat ammo faster than anything else we fly.
Shadow the Cats owner SD70Dude ... Could the AC-130 gunship count as a fighter? I called and asked my BIL what he would consider the AC130 as. He goes if you're on the receiving end from one you swear it is Hell raining down on you.
SD70Dude ... Could the AC-130 gunship count as a fighter?
... Could the AC-130 gunship count as a fighter?
I called and asked my BIL what he would consider the AC130 as. He goes if you're on the receiving end from one you swear it is Hell raining down on you.
Not the 20mm cannon of WWII. 25mm, and then 30mm, and now 40mm, and chain guns. (And follow-on to the M61A Vulcan/GAU4 ... there's a quality difference.)
Overmod Shadow the Cats owner SD70Dude ... Could the AC-130 gunship count as a fighter? I called and asked my BIL what he would consider the AC130 as. He goes if you're on the receiving end from one you swear it is Hell raining down on you. Not the 20mm cannon of WWII. 25mm, and then 30mm, and now 40mm, and chain guns. (And follow-on to the M61A Vulcan/GAU4 ... there's a quality difference.)
I have always wondered how fire control and aiming are accomplished with the AC-130.
BaltACDI have always wondered how fire control and aiming are accomplished with the AC-130.
I believe the original modified C-47 'Spooky' had individually trainable mounts (with airmen actively pointing them)
The H and U variants have individual gunners for each of the mounts, with a fair amount of central fire-control avionics. The W has a modular system that depends much more highly on the 'Gunslinger' precision-guided weapon system (and wing-mounted GBU-39s); it only has one gun (but it's a doozy!) on the left-hand side in a 360-degree mount. Interestingly, as provided in the Precision Strike Package, this weapon does not have a dedicated gunner... draw your own conclusions, but examination of the PSP specs will, I think, give you the answer without compromising security. Note that the accuracy of the gun at 4000' range from the aircraft is well within 20' and it has widely-selectable burst control.
The Ghostrider version (AC 130J) was able to add the 105mm howitzer and wing-mounted Hellfires, but if I'm not mistaken this project has been cancelled in favor of more Ws.
Want to go a little "retro" everybody? We can do that.
What's this one about? Let me give you a hint...
"Beware the Hun in the sun!"
Be prepared to be as stunned as I was when I found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOhjtLFIrms
And on the original AC-47 "Spooky" the three 7.62mm Vulcan guns were in fixed mounts. There was a "gunsight," for lack of a better term, on the left wingtip. The pilot would put the sight on the target area and begin circling, then would open fire.
As most of us probably know, the original name of the aircraft was "Puff The Magic Dragon." The radio call-sign was changed from "Puff" to "Spooky" as it was phonetically better for radio transmissions.
Overmod (Watch for the streamlined 2-8-4!)
I think the locomotive illustrated in the video is one of the two Kolomna 4-6-4s 232 Nos 1 and 2 which dffered in boiler design. The headlight centered in the red star low on the nose was a feature of these two locomotives. The streamlined 2-8-4, IS20-18 had its headlight higher up, incorporated as part of a shield carrying the name "J Stalin".
I recall a rise in interest in Ekranoplans in the late 1990s despite which, their high drag meant that as before, they were not an economic proposition.
Peter.
Firelock, great film with the Albatrossosses. Albatri. Airplanes!
You're welcome '54, and just what is the plural of "Albatros" anyway?
Albatros'? Albatrosses? Or as you said, "Albatri?" It's a mystery.
Anyway, for a little more "retro," here's a lovely film of a replica SPAD 13, Italian built, and in the markings of Maggiore Francesco Baracca, the top Italian ace of World War One with 34 victories.
OK, it's not Hispano-Suiza powered so the nose doesn't look quite right, but you know what? So what! It's gorgeous!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74FbQLb-AqY
Oh, at about 1:39 into the film, that gazebo-like structure on the ground by the grove of trees is a memorial on the site where Baracca died in 1918. Shot down by an Austrian two-seater? Ground fire? No-one is sure to this day.
I'm on a military history website and a few years ago, we had an informal poll of what WW2 aircraft would personally want to own. You'd never guess the overwhelming favorite... (scroll down)
PBY Catalina.
BackshopI'm on a military history website and a few years ago, we had an informal poll of what WW2 aircraft would personally want to own. You'd never guess the overwhelming favorite... (scroll down) PBY Catalina.
My father-in-law (RIP) was part of the crew on a PBY stationed somewhere in the Carribean. His recurrent story was how they managed to sink a Japanese sub while on patrol. I wasn't aware that Japanese subs made it into the Carribean - German yes, Japanese no.
It's possible. If his patrol squadron was based in the Canal Zone, he may have also flown patrols over the Pacific.
I was in my yard one day when I heard the unmistakable sound of two radial engines climbing out. As it appeared over the trees into my view I saw that the aircraft was a PBY, still dripping from its touch-and-go on a nearby small lake. Good thing it was only a touch and go - I'm not sure the lake is long enough for a full takeoff run.
M636C Overmod (Watch for the streamlined 2-8-4!) I think the locomotive illustrated in the video is one of the two Kolomna 4-6-4s 232 Nos 1 and 2 which dffered in boiler design. The headlight centered in the red star low on the nose was a feature of these two locomotives. The streamlined 2-8-4, IS20-18 had its headlight higher up, incorporated as part of a shield carrying the name "J Stalin". I recall a rise in interest in Ekranoplans in the late 1990s despite which, their high drag meant that as before, they were not an economic proposition. Peter.
Yes, that was the Soviet 2-3-2K aka Kolomna 4-6-4s, the engine itself was brand new but the passenger cars behlind her, just like other streamlined steam engine in USSR, was some very shabby equipment.
tree68 I was in my yard one day when I heard the unmistakable sound of two radial engines climbing out. As it appeared over the trees into my view I saw that the aircraft was a PBY, still dripping from its touch-and-go on a nearby small lake. Good thing it was only a touch and go - I'm not sure the lake is long enough for a full takeoff run.
I had a similar experience in 1972 in Rockhampton, Queensland. I was still in bed late on a Sunday morning when I heard the sound of twin radial engines. By rolling over I could look out the bedroom window and saw a PBY with its undercarriage extended heading for a nearby airport. I threw on jeans and a t-shirt over my pyjamas an d drove pretty quickly to the airport where I was able to photograph the aircraft taxiing in. It was registered in Canada and was equipped with cable loops for mineral suvey.
More recently, a preserved PBY has appeared on occasion at air shows and military commemorations.
BaltACD Backshop I'm on a military history website and a few years ago, we had an informal poll of what WW2 aircraft would personally want to own. You'd never guess the overwhelming favorite... (scroll down) PBY Catalina.
Backshop
I'm on a military history website and a few years ago, we had an informal poll of what WW2 aircraft would personally want to own. You'd never guess the overwhelming favorite... (scroll down) PBY Catalina.
Conversely, several ships were sunk off the East Coast of Australia in 1945 by a U-boat, which successfully found its way back to Germany around VE day. But I'd doubt that the Japanese had the ability to mount submarine patrols in the Carbibean. I thiink the U-boat had carried some critical equipment from Germany to Tokyo, and was just taking care of business on its way home.
The German submarine was able to visit Japan and occupied countries for fuel and repairs on its Pacific patrol. I don't think the Japanese had any such facilities in the Atlantic or Caribbean...
Firelock76You're welcome '54, and just what is the plural of "Albatros" anyway? Albatros'? Albatrosses? Or as you said, "Albatri?" It's a mystery.
Not particularly. It's a German word, for a German plane. And the German plural is "Albatrosse" (Or, as some like me who love WWI aircraft would fudge, "Albatros-Maschinen" since the name is for the type.)
Unfortunately for lesser pedants, any sort of Latin plural for a word obviously derived from Arabic is worse than pointless. Public school boys should have known better.
BOB WITHORNM636C, Seems to me that a lot of the PBY's in the Sou. Pac covering for the 380th, 22nd, 43rd & 90th B/Gs in WW2 were RAAF crews. Especially during the Balikpapan missions.
The Catalina was very important to Australia in WWII.
Apart from extensive use for reconnaisance and anti submarine patrols, they were used by Qantas for flights between, if i recall correctly, from Carnarvon in Western Australia to Sri Lanka (called Ceylon then). These were very long non stop flights and the few passengers were given a certificate called "the order of the double sunrise" (presumably this occurred eastbound). These flights replaced services via Singapore and India after the Japanese occupation of Singapore.
The preserved aircraft is painted black with blue and white roundels representing an RAAF aircraft.
I was at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome many years ago and during the air show, the aircraft were away from the field so there was the "ground show" involving the old tank, trucks and so forth. While people were looking at that, from behind right over the grandstand and flying low was the Albatross in full chat! Man that was something! It had a varnished, woodgrain forward fuselage like the one in the youtube film. Gotta get back there someday.
Got to give the Old Rhinebeck crew credit, they were the first to replicate an Albatros, in their case it's a D-V model.
I know there's an original Albatros D-V in the Air and Space Museum in Washington, there may be others somewhere, but I'm not sure of that. Possibly in some European museums?
That would represent one of the "Black Cat" night bombers with radar.
What about the Hughes H-4 ? If WW-2 had continued ?
Bob I understand ,could it be the blond haired sweetie in front of you with the "pig tails"?? Ah yes those were the days. I walked my blond haired sweety home along the "Pennsey RR " in Dayton Ohio. Her are still my sweety after 63 yrs.
blue streak 1 What about the Hughes H-4 ? If WW-2 had continued ?
You mean this monstrosity!?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hhaAhCjLfGk
I thought it was called the HK (Hughes-Kaiser) 1? Or is the H4 something other than the Spruce Goose?
Same plane, but Henry Kaiser left the project partway in, leaving Hughes Aircraft to finish it alone.
I just got the October/November issue of "Air & Space: Smithsonian". It includes an article about the best movie about the Air Force ever made: "Twelve O'Clock High".
CSSHEGEWISCH I just got the October/November issue of "Air & Space: Smithsonian". It includes an article about the best movie about the Air Force ever made: "Twelve O'Clock High".
Definitely a great movie.
"Air Classics" magazine had a great article about the making of "Twelve O'Clock High" over thirty years ago.
Here's an anecdote from the same...
At an Air Force Association premiere party for the film General Curtis Le May said he hoped all the usual technical goofs had been avoided but he doubted that would be the case. Two of the producers involved in the film said there was only one thing wrong in the film but they bet the general he wouldn't pick up on it.
Long story short, Le May loved the film, saying "By God, there weren't any mistakes in the film, although I never would have believed it!"
What did Le May miss? The addition of the whining sound of the attacking German fighters. In a B-17 you could see them, but you couldn't hear them.
A bit of successful dramatic license.
I'll tell you, not only is "Twelve O'Clock High" the best Air Force movie ever made, it's one of the best war movies ever made. It's timeless.
Here's a taste, BGen. Frank Savage works over LtCol. Ben Gately, all shot in one take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOGl_7a2nWU
I'd personally vote for this one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_(film)
Twelve O'Clock High also spawned a successful 60's television series that straddled the switch from black & white to color programming (Which I'm sure several around here have watched). Doesn't share the realism of the film though and never really tickled my fancy, unlike so many other black & white hits from the first 15 years of American television.
Watched the full run on tv a few years ago on I believe MeTV, and probably won't be returning down the road to view it again (It's a classic 20th Century Fox tv series, which means it's not commercially available on DVD since they've largely only have released current-fare for their tv series outside of M*A*S*H and a handful of other exceptions).
I remember "12 O'Clock High" the TV series from the 60's quite well. Not as good as the movie but considering it was made for TV, and considering the limited budgets TV shows had to work with back then, I thought it was pretty well done.
I didn't like when they got rid of Robert Lansing as General Savage and replaced him with Paul Burke as Colonel Gallagher! Bad move. The idea was they wanted someone with more "youth appeal." Huh? Didn't they realize that to most kids (like I was at the time) anyone over 20 is ancient? And besides, us kids weren't stupid, of course General Savage was old, he was a general, he was supposed to be old! Although when I look at pictures of Robert Lansing as Savage now he doesn't look as old as he used too! What happened? Scary...
Anyway, here's a clip...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-8Md9l-3Z8
Some people don't remember what it's like to be a kid!
And "Air Force" is pretty good as well. A great ensemble cast including John Garfield, Harry Carey, George Tobias and others. Not to mention those sweet-looking pre-war B-17C's and D's. There's only one of those in existance now as far as I know, "The Swoose," and here's the story, with a bit of a surprise in it.
https://travelforaircraft.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/b-17-shark-fin/
And here's the Kay Kyser song where the name "Swoose" came from...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dme2bRVtbWg
The only thing that mars "Air Force" is the wartime propaganda bits, but hey, it was the era, and you have to make allowances for that.
Let's not forget "Dawn Patrol" from 1938 with Basil Rathbone, Errol Flynn and David Niven. Like "12 O'clock High," it's about the strain on a commanding officer sending men out on extremely dangerous, often deadly missions.
Anything with John Garfied is worth seeing. We're all familiar with the Bogart and Bacall classic, "To Have and Have Not?" Watch Garfield in "The Breaking Point." it's the same story under a different title and closer to Hemingway's book than Bogie's picture, great as that one is. I think Garfield is more realistic as a Hemingway character than Bogart, but "The Breaking Point" doesn't have Lauren Bacall doing that little dance at the end. Yow!
Oh yeah, "The Dawn Patrol" is a great one, here's the trailer...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U409HIwikoQ
But there's two things I can't figure out, why the film-makers set the story in 1915, long before the air war really got cranked up, ("Bloody April" of 1917 would have made more sense) and why they call it the Royal Air Force, in the time of the film it was the Royal Flying Corps, hence the variety of uniforms the actors are wearing, many of the RFC pilots wore the uniforms of the British Army regiments they originally came from. It really puzzles me because World War One wasn't ancient history in 1938 and Hollywood was full of WW1 veterans, both British and American. Basil Rathbone was a front-line veteran himself, finished the war as a captain* and was decorated with the Military Cross, kind of equivalent to an American Silver Star.
That being said, great acting from all concerned, great flying, and a strong anti-war message as well.
* His regiment was the Liverpool Scottish Rifles
No more difficult to figure out why the Dawn Patrol was "RAF" than why Basil Rathbone as Sherlock Holmes sometimes fought Nazis. Applied patriotism sometimes trumps historical accuracy...
Remember that 1938 was the era of Churchill crying in the wilderness while Hitler's Germany took Czechoslovakia ... and the bumbershoot proclaimed 'peace in our time'.
You know, the crazy thing about Sherlock Holmes being updated to the 1940's was, in it's own way, it worked.
Probably because Basil Rathbone was Sherlock Holmes! No-one's done him better, even though others have come close.
Sure, Winston was "...a voice in the wilderness..." in 1938. After the horror of the First World War no-one wanted another one and the British and French leaders of the time were terrified of another one. Hitler knew that and played on it mercilessly. He smelled the fear. It's probably not for nothing Adolf's nickname as a boy among his friends was "Wolf."
But things change. Three years after "Dawn Patrol" Warner Brothers released another great aviation film called "Dive Bomber," and if you're a fan of "The Golden Age of Aviation" it's one you have to see. Shot in Technicolor it's not just a movie, it's a time machine. It's 1941 now, and pacifism is out and preparedness is in. Check out the trailer...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPrW5Lq5K80
Firelock76Probably because Basil Rathbone was Sherlock Holmes! No-one's done him better, even though others have come close.
I don't think it's possible to have a better. He's better than the literary character, and that's saying something!
Rare for someone to be so good as one of the greatest heroes of the British tradition, just a couple of years from being one of the greatest villains (as the Sheriff of Nottingham) -- and nailing both of them canonically.
(On the other hand, it does have to be said that Leslie Howard, may he rest in peace, made a much better Scarlet Pimpernel, so good he could even do a knockoff on his own role.)
switch7frg ... those Rolls- Merlin engines in the Mustang sure do whistle a pretty tune.
So do the Packard V-1650s more commonly encountered there, don't you think?
(I am well aware of actual Rolls-Royce construction in the United States; I had a car that was made in Springfield and it's the full American equivalent of 54light's Britannic Citroen. But license-built is not Derby-built...)
Firelock76 But things change. Three years after "Dawn Patrol" Warner Brothers released another great aviation film called "Dive Bomber," and if you're a fan of "The Golden Age of Aviation" it's one you have to see. Shot in Technicolor it's not just a movie, it's a time machine. It's 1941 now, and pacifism is out and preparedness is in. Check out the trailer...
I watched "Dive Bomber" some 30+ years ago and it was quite the time capsule of the US in '40-'41 (early Heinlein stories are another good time capsule). Interesting to see the pre-war aerial shots of San Diego. Thought some of the plot lines were kind of hokey, but the recognition of flight surgeons was nice.
Overmod- A Rolls-Royce, obviously. Indeed! I had the Monogram model of it until I encountered firecrackers. There have been other American-made cars such as Fiats (Made in Poughkeepsie, New York) and Mercedes, not Mercedes-Benz, but Mercedes which would be pre-1925, actually from around 1914 but I don't recall where they were made. But Packard? In a class if its own from East Grand Boulevard in Detroit and no wonder that RR picked them to build the Merlin. Their production methods were far superior to anything that was done in the U.K. They had the capability and were available. Ford was busy with Willow Run where Rosie built the B-24 but I digress.
Ever hear a straight-eight Packard run? No, you haven't heard a Packard 8 run. Why? Because it doesn't make any noise! Refined! A refinement that obviously appealed to the Rolls-Royce people scouting out U.S. plants. The production capacity of the U.S. spelled doom for the turd reich. There was just no way for Adenoid Hynkel to win once Yankee (and Canadian) production got going. .
Dive Bomber?" Anything with Errol Flynn is worth seeing. If you see "Objective Burma," you will see one Phil Cochrane, the model for Milton Caniff's "Flip Corkin," a major character in his legendary comic strip, "Terry and the Pirates."So sue me, I'm a train, car, aircraft, movie and comic strip geek!
IIRC, one of the changes that Packard made to the Merlin was converting to SAE screw/bolt sizes and threads. I've also heard that the Packard built Merlins were better built than the wartime RR built Merlins. Interestingly enough, the P/F-82's (Twin Mustangs) were built with Allison engines.
Historical tidbit on the Merlin: The first step in the design of the Merlin was pushing a seated draftsman's back against the wall and tracing out his outline - no need to make the Merlin cross-section any smaller than the pilot sitting behind it.
If you have an interest in Packard products, in Dayton Ohio there is a Packard museum. Contains about 50+ Packard motor cars through the years, but also has a display of the Merlin engines, including the difficulty building the first ones. Converting from metric was one problem already mentioned. Another was that RR was making changes and improvements to them so fast during the wartime conditions that the changes were not properly documented. The plans RR sent didnt match the sample engines that were provided. Required Packard to do some back engineering.
Finally Packard built PT boat engines. These suckers were huge. There are some examples at the Dayton museum too.
Me, I love Packards! I'll take a 31 Roadster anyday. Who wouldn't? At the University of Toronto there is or was an engineering hall with a lot of vintage engines on display including a Merlin and various steam engines as well as a cut-away 36 HP Volkswagen engine. I haven't been there for 20 years but I do recall the Merlin.
54light15Me, I love Packards! I'll take a 31 Roadster anyday. Who wouldn't?
Form a line on the right ... behind me.
Love them ever so slightly earlier: always wanted a 745; may someday get one, but it has to be drivable every day. That rules out concours examples where the value goes down an odd hundred thousand if you scuff up the undercarriage.
Overmod 54light15 Me, I love Packards! I'll take a 31 Roadster anyday. Who wouldn't? Form a line on the right ... behind me. Love them ever so slightly earlier: always wanted a 745; may someday get one, but it has to be drivable every day. That rules out concours examples where the value goes down an odd hundred thousand if you scuff up the undercarriage.
54light15 Me, I love Packards! I'll take a 31 Roadster anyday. Who wouldn't?
Cars are to be driven - not put on pedestals! Operable 'barn finds' are pulling bigger $$$$$$ in some cases than Concours quality restorations.
Driving. That's what cars are for. The best trophy you can put on your old car is a stone chip. My 54 Light 15 Citroen came out of a barn in Quebec 13 years ago. The paint was chipped, there were dents and holes drilled for purposes I could never figure out. I re-did it mechanically and rewired it but left the body alone. People asked if I was going to restore it. I would say, "It is restored."
But one day, a kid in an SUV rear-ended it and it went to a body shop to get the damage repaired and the body guy repainted the whole thing after taking all the paint off including the original lacquer. Looked great when it was done, but that barn find patina was gone, damn it. It bugged me so much I ended up selling it. I ended up buying a 1949 Citroen that did come out of a barn, it looks it and that's the way it's going to stay. It's only original once.
My other Citroen is a 1954 Normale. It came out of a guy's backyard in 1983. It was painted in 1986 (it had to be) and is showing its age with a bazillion stone chips, scratches and so forth. It can be driven daily. Will I re-restore it? Nope. It's got patina on it that I earned myself.
BaltACDCars are to be driven - not put on pedestals! Operable 'barn finds' are pulling bigger $$$$$$ in some cases than Concours quality restorations.
That's the quandry we have with our 1932 fire truck - one of a small handful of that model left (only 32 were built). As nice and shiny as it would look if we did a frame-off restoration on it, it's currently all original.
54light15Driving. That's what cars are for. The best trophy you can put on your old car is a stone chip. My 54 Light 15 Citroen came out of a barn in Quebec 13 years ago. The paint was chipped, there were dents and holes drilled for purposes I could never figure out. I re-did it mechanically and rewired it but left the body alone. People asked if I was going to restore it. I would say, "It is restored." But one day, a kid in an SUV rear-ended it and it went to a body shop to get the damage repaired and the body guy repainted the whole thing after taking all the paint off including the original lacquer. Looked great when it was done, but that barn find patina was gone, damn it. It bugged me so much I ended up selling it. I ended up buying a 1949 Citroen that did come out of a barn, it looks it and that's the way it's going to stay. It's only original once. My other Citroen is a 1954 Normale. It came out of a guy's backyard in 1983. It was painted in 1986 (it had to be) and is showing its age with a bazillion stone chips, scratches and so forth. It can be driven daily. Will I re-restore it? Nope. It's got patina on it that I earned myself.
What? No 2CV's
He's probably got one stashed in his bedroom closet
CSSHEGEWISCHHe's probably got one stashed in his bedroom closet
Or in the back of his Light 15 in case he runs out of gas
The Packard Museum in Dayton is worth the trip to Dayton. Then you drop by that other museum, you know, the one that the US Air Force has there.
This was about seven years ago, but I'd like to think that some people and some cars last forever.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/automobiles/collectibles/100000000895665/two-classics-one-car.html
BOB WITHORN The Packard Museum in Dayton is worth the trip to Dayton. Then you drop by that other museum, you know, the one that the US Air Force has there.
Sorry gents, no 2CVs. There's a lot of them in the club as well as the DS, the SM and others. I don't feel the need to own one when I can drive one pretty much any time I want. My other car is a 1960 Saab 93F, a 3 cylinder 2 stroke-a mint condition garage find as well and since it came from South Africa, not one speck of rust! That thing is a pisser to drive! The chain saw from hell!
Here's an interesting thing about the Saab. it was part of a collection of various European cars such as Mark 2 Jaguars, a 1961 Tatra, VWs and a 1950s Porsche that a guy came over from Germany to buy and paid 400,000 euros for it. It was gone when I picked up the Saab. So, with a price like that, it could not have been an ordinary 356 and I have been unable to find out just what model it was. A 550 Spyder perhaps?
I met Margaret Dunning at the Concours of America show in Michigan a few years ago. She was in mint condition and so was her Packard. I found at a toy show a Hubley metal kit of a Packard roadster like hers so that's how I painted it. It looks nice, too bad it ain't a real one.
Cars, cars, cars and airplanes... Gheesh... my bumper sticker reads:
My other vehicle is a
STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Mine:
https://www.moretvicar.com/media/product/2014/04/30/892_2733_w450.jpg
Mine says "My Other Truck is a Fire Truck..."
Couldn't see it all in the time we had at the USAF Museum. Most impressive.
The Packard Museum is in the original/first Packard dealership.
If you're traveling through Georgia on Route 95 try and make time to see the Eighth Air Force Museum in Pooler GA, right off the highway.
The wife and I stopped in for a quick visit several years ago, and stayed for hours!
Well worth a visit!
Firelock76 If you're traveling through Georgia on Route 95 try and make time to see the Eighth Air Force Museum in Pooler GA, right off the highway. The wife and I stopped in for a quick visit several years ago, and stayed for hours! Well worth a visit!
Yeah, me too, however Savannah was where the 8th Air Force first came into being, a paper organization at first, and eventually the colossus and military legend it became. Pooler's very close to Savannah and the location off Route 95 gives it a lot of exposure.
anyway, here's a peek...
www.mightyeighth.org
Firelock76 Yeah, me too, however Savannah was where the 8th Air Force first came into being, a paper organization at first, and eventually the colossus and military legend it became. Pooler's very close to Savannah and the location off Route 95 gives it a lot of exposure. anyway, here's a peek... www.mightyeighth.org
I have been to the museum, and if you are ever anywhere close it is well worth your time and effort to go. The Historic District in Savannah (only 10-15 miles from the museum) is one of the best-preserved antebellum areas in the country, and there are a lot of historic locations within easy driving distance. Savannah is especially beautiful in the spring when the azaleas and dogwoods are blooming, and the Historic District is very walkable. One caveat - any time after mid-May the weather will be hot and humid, and it will stay that way until around October 1. There are also plenty of things for your family to do in and around Savannah if they aren't interested in warbirds.
If I am going to tour Savannah, I'll go to Baltimore. Far more interesting that a few little aircraft, really ...
http://www.ns-savannah.org/
So THAT'S where "Savannah" wound up!
When I went to Florida with a friend in 1975 you could see "Savannah" docked in Savannah from the highway, I think it was Route 17 since Route 95 wasn't completed through Georgia yet. It's been a while so I don't remember exactly, but "Savannah" itself was very recognizable. Looked in rough shape at the time.
I saw the Savannah docked on the west side of Manhattan when my father flew us over the city in his 1947 Aeronca. Around 1967 as I recall. I always wondered about it myself. Did it ever carry a paying cargo or was it a kind of "demonstrator?"
Someone a lot more familiar with "Savannah" would have to tell the story, it's been years since I've read anything about it, but if I remember correctly it did carry paying cargoes for a while but the nuclear powered cargo ship concept just didn't catch on, so the ship was quietly retired.
Too ahead of it's time maybe? Probably?
Photo of the Savannah under the Verrazano Bridgehttp://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/qf/791837879-sikorsky-s-62-ns-savannah-nuclear-ship-lower-new-york-bay.jpg
Sorry for the historical commercials.
Firelock76 Someone a lot more familiar with "Savannah" would have to tell the story, it's been years since I've read anything about it, but if I remember correctly it did carry paying cargoes for a while but the nuclear powered cargo ship concept just didn't catch on, so the ship was quietly retired. Too ahead of it's time maybe? Probably?
I read somewhere years ago that the ship didn't carry enough cargo to be successful as a cargo ship or enough passengers to be successful as a passenger liner, and there weren't any routes that had demand for passenger and freight hauling for it to be successful as a hybrid. Don't know if the author knew what he was talking about, but am just throwing it out there as a possible reason it wasn't successful. It was built not long before containers revolutionized ocean freight, which couldn't have helped.
When I was a young boy it docked in Savannah, GA and offered tours to the public. I went thru it, but must have been between the ages of 5 and 10, because I only have a couple of hazy memories of it.
I gotta tell you that as a railfan who is also an aviation enthusiast (I sit on the BoT of the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome-70 machines from 1909-1941 and about 20 flyable–and I believe we are in the discussion somewhere) and a sailor (we grew up in my dad's daysailers on the Hudson) it tickles me that one of the longest running (since 2008!) threads on the Trains Forum is Historic Warbirds and now encompasses an esoteric ship! How elecletic are we?
Well Mike, you know what the late, great David P. Morgan said?
"Big things that move are a lot more interesting than big things that don't!"
Folks were talking about classic cars a bit earlier? Well, here's my dream car!
Primitive, but oh-so-cool!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16UnMSfvLzw
Firelock76Well, here's my dream car!
At least you won't be getting many speeding tickets.
SALfan Firelock76 Someone a lot more familiar with "Savannah" would have to tell the story, it's been years since I've read anything about it, but if I remember correctly it did carry paying cargoes for a while but the nuclear powered cargo ship concept just didn't catch on, so the ship was quietly retired. Too ahead of it's time maybe? Probably? I read somewhere years ago that the ship didn't carry enough cargo to be successful as a cargo ship or enough passengers to be successful as a passenger liner, and there weren't any routes that had demand for passenger and freight hauling for it to be successful as a hybrid. Don't know if the author knew what he was talking about, but am just throwing it out there as a possible reason it wasn't successful. It was built not long before containers revolutionized ocean freight, which couldn't have helped. When I was a young boy it docked in Savannah, GA and offered tours to the public. I went thru it, but must have been between the ages of 5 and 10, because I only have a couple of hazy memories of it.
OK! You all got my interest up! I had seen the N.S. Savanah a long time ago when it was moored in the Savanah River in South Carolina. I too, had wondered what became of this interesting experiment of the then-Cold War. So, as Paul Harvey would relate.."Here is the rest of that story".
lnked @ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/07/aboard-the-ns-savannah-americas-first-and-last-nuclear-merchant-ship/
FTL:"...Savannah officially became a museum ship in South Carolina in 1981 as part of the state's Patriot's Point Naval and Maritime Museum. In the process, the state became a Nuclear Regulatory Commission co-licensee with MARAD. But in 1993, Savannah was turned back over to the Maritime Administration when she needed to be drydocked. "The museum said, 'Just don't bring it back,'" recounted Erhard Koehler, the ship's senior technical advisor and manager. "That was when I became involved."...
For the past 24 years, Koehler's life has been tethered to Savannah, first as a project engineer for MARAD and then as her chief caretaker for this past decade. Koehler is the man whose name is on the ship's license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. During his tenure, Savannah has been drydocked or moored up and down the Chesapeake, coming to rest at her current Baltimore home eight years ago.
Designated as a national landmark, Savannah continues to be preserved. But the ship is also still regulated by the NRC and awaiting congressional funding for full decommissioning. It's a step that the US government didn't really even think about back when Savannah was built..."
So now we know, at least more of the story!
Firelock, Thanks for that- Do you know where that was filmed? Looks like a lot of fun was being had.
sampfFF- Thanks for that also, I always wondered about what happened to the Savannah.
MikeFF- Does the aerodrome still have that Matchless-engined Morgan 3-wheeler? I love those!
'light, I think from looking at the other videos from the same place that Renault was filmed at a tank/ military vehicle exhibition in Belgium.
I looked at the video of the King Tiger tank as well. You know, that thing's almost 75 years old, and a present day M1A1 Abrams would make short work of it, but you know, that King Tiger is still one terrifying-looking tank! I can't imagine what a GI in the Ardennes thought when he saw one of those things bearing down on him.
Maybe I don't want to know.
I did some reading on "Savannah," and found out the nuclear reactor is still in there, although de-fueled and inert. Maybe that's why the NRC is still involved with it.
I was at the Patton Armor Museum many years ago when it still was at Ft Knox. I was comparing the Abrams with the Tiger, and physically the Tiger was much more imposing. It was about 2 feet taller. The deck of the M1 came to chest level while the Tiger was almost to the top of my head (I'm 5'7").
Backshop I was at the Patton Armor Museum many years ago when it still was at Ft Knox. I was comparing the Abrams with the Tiger, and physically the Tiger was much more imposing. It was about 2 feet taller. The deck of the M1 came to chest level while the Tiger was almost to the top of my head (I'm 5'7").
Which would be two feet more target to shoot at...
Yes, 54Light15, the Morgan is still in the collection, but not currently operable. We did just acquire as "Depot" Model T that is extremely original and in good shape.
I'd love to buy that Morgan but I doubt I could afford it. It was the first one I ever saw.
I've just got to pop a video of that "Koenigs-Tiger" for everyone, and as an added attraction it's being followed by a little brother, who's pretty scary in his own right!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQI0loSxOKA
The only thing missing is some background music, like "Panzerlied."
I can supply that too, the best arrangement of it I've ever heard, and from a very surprising source!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQZfO-Bc_Y
tree68 Which would be two feet more target to shoot at...
Fascinating stuff, Firelock! There's one of those tank destroyers in the tank museum at Camp Borden near Barrie, Ontario. I was amazed at how small it was. The star of the collection for me was a T-34 and that was pretty small too. I recall that song from the film "The Battle of the Bulge" from when I was a kid.
'Light, there was a T-34 on outdoor display at The Basic School in Quantico Va when I was there in 1975. Captured during the Korean War you could see where the shot hit that knocked it out, a small hole in the front glacis plate about the size of a quarter with cracks radiating out from it. That may not sound like much but remember, the main purpose of an anti-tank shell isn't to kill the tank, it's to kill the crew.
It was wide open, and let me tell you if you think it's small on the outside you should try the inside! I'm a six-footer and I had a hard time moving around in there. Interestingly, the turret rotating and main gun elevation cranks still worked, so I was able to rotate the turret and raise and depress the gun, but it did take some effort to do so.
The tank's now on display in the National Museum of the Marine Corps in Quantico, although I very much doubt they let anyone inside it now to play like I did.
The 2 most effective ways to destroy or knock out a tank kill the crew or destroy the gun. Destroying the ammunition carried does both .
BOB WITHORNJust call in an A-10 and poof, tank gone!
Had the opportunity to watch the Hawg Smoke competition a few years ago. From the vantage point of the range building, within a few hundred yards of the targets. Very impressive.
Firelock76The only thing missing is some background music, like "Panzerlied."
Here are the words that go with this 'tank song'. With a translation (provided by Armin Deutsch):
Easy to make adjustments to make this song right for other armor corps!
Good Lord. I feel sick. 95% of my family was murdered by this Racist War, which they kept up right to the end long after the military war was hopeless. That is what was important to them.
BOB WITHORN Just call in an A-10 and poof, tank gone!
Just call in an A-10 and poof, tank gone!
OvermodOvermod wrote the following post 14 hours ago: Firelock76 The only thing missing is some background music, like "Panzerlied." Here are the words that go with this 'tank song'.
Panzerlied is closely associated with the 3rd Reich, as it was written in 1933. It and other songs were removed from the current German Army (Bundeswehr) songbook in 2017. It is still used by Italy and France, however. Perhaps some of the older, traditional tunes are a better choice. https://youtu.be/HFEwH_a4Ark
Tree,
You know what it is when you hear it. God son is an A-10 pilot.
BOB WITHORN Tree, You know what it is when you hear it. God son is an A-10 pilot.
For sure. What I found particularly interesting was that you could see/hear four different "events" when they fired the Gatling gun.
1. Puffs of smoke from the gun
2. Sonic "booms" of the rounds passing us
3. Rounds hitting the target
4. Sound of the gun itself firing.
For the bombing portion, they were using dummy "flash/bang" bombs. We wouldn't have been watching from where we were if they were using the real deal.
That is the order:
He says that when you fire the gun the recoil makes the plane feel like you stomped on the brakes.
He's on I think his 8th? deployment over somewhere.
If I offended anyone by bringing up and posting "Panzerlied" I sincerely apologize. I wouldn't intentionally offend anyone here for the world.
Just trying to have a little fun, that's all.
And that's all I'll say about the matter, no explainations or rationalizations.
It's ok Firelock. Been haunting me the last couple of weeks when this came up. All's well.
Here, this'll make up for it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9HD01V704
What do you say we get this back to classic aircraft?
How's a restored, original, Hispano-Suiza engined SPAD XIII grab you?
Direct from La Belle France, here it is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_HhHSt7qlA
What a bunch of whimpy craft!
Here is 5 and a half minutes of engineering excellence, the epitome of beauty and adrenaline pumping power!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82LCMQJ-r8
(And more in line with the purpose of this forum.)
765's not germane to this discussion, but no matter, no matter at all!
The glory of steam is welcome wherever it makes an appearance.
Firelock76 What do you say we get this back to classic aircraft? How's a restored, original, Hispano-Suiza engined SPAD XIII grab you? Direct from La Belle France, here it is... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_HhHSt7qlA
+1. No offense taken. I just wanted to put it in context.
Bob, time and tide change things , but memories live on forever. Such as 11/18 -18.
switch7frg Bob, time and tide change things , but memories live on forever. Such as 11/18 -18.
"Veteran pilot, 97, who flew 50 bombing raids over Germany during WWII fulfils lifelong dream of flying a Spitfire after a 70 year wait"
FTA:'...A Mosquito pilot who flew 50 bombing raids over Germany in World War Two has fulfilled his dream of flying a Spitfire after a 70 year wait.
Colin S Bell, 97, took to the skies again at Boultbee Flight Academy in Chichester, in a two-seater Spitfire TR9.
Mr Bell flew Merlin engine powered Mosquito bombers for the RAF's Pathfinder Group during WWII and said his Spitfire experience was 'better than I expected.'
He said: 'I have had this fantastic experience…flying in a Spitfire, something I've always wanted to do, and today is the culmination of that ambition…It was even better than I expected.'
Mr Bell, whose full title is Flt/Lt (Ret'd) Colin S Bell DFC AE FRICS IRRV(Hons) RAF (Ret'd) flew for 608 & 162 Squadrons, part of the Pathfinder Group - an elite, hand-picked bunch of the RAF's most skilled pilots and navigators.
Colin completed 50 such bombing raids - all of them over Germany and 13 over Berlin.
Boultbee Flight Academy invited the retired great grandfather-of-four to fly with instructor Chris in their two-seat Spitfire TR9..."
The article is complete with still photos, and video, for anyone interested it is linked @ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6366841/Veteran-pilot-97-flew-50-bombing-raids-WWII-fulfils-dream-flying-Spitfire.html
I wonder if he ever encountered one of these rare Pfeils (Do 335):
Or more likely, an Me 262:
and wasn't it 1100 hr on 11/11/18 ?
That's right, the "Eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month."
That's when the armistice took effect. I suspect Marshal Ferdinand Foch was being a little poetic. Then again, it would take time to get the word out.
And this veterans day take a little time out to remember those Doughboys, Marines, Sailors, and pioneer Airmen who fought that war. Now all gone down "The Long, Long Trail" but hopefully not forgotten.
OK, back to old airplanes- you've got to see these!
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2019/feb/25/the-second-world-war-in-colour-pictures
Those photos are marvelous, like they were taken yesterday! Thanks for posting them!
At the risk of being the one who invited a skunk into the family picnic....
I found the following linked article @ https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-dday-75th-anniversary-squadron-trip-oxford-20190518-k535nyev55edna3rjgjhrzt6wy-story.html
"From Connecticut to Normandy, vintage planes help mark 75th anniversary of D-Day" By Jesse Leavenworth| Hartford Courant |May 18, 2019
FTA: "...vintage warplanes bearing the black and white invasion stripes of Operation Overlord are set to take off from Connecticut on Sunday for a return flight to Europe.
Placid Lassie, D-Day Doll, That’s All, Brother and other planes of the D-Day Squadron are to depart from Waterbury-Oxford Airport and leapfrog across the Atlantic to take part in Daks Over Normandy. The international gathering of volunteer pilots, crews and historic planes is to culminate on June 5 with a jump by about 250 paratroopers into the same drop zones used in the June 6, 1944 invasion..."
Seems like an event that is appropriate to mention in this Thread about "Historic Warbirds". Wonder how many 'other' WWII aircraft will make the journey to celebrate the 75th Anniversay of 'D-Day"?
Thanks Sam! There was an article in the local paper about one of those aircraft, "That's All Brother," a week or so ago. "That's All Brother" is an actual D-Day veteran, bought as a hulk and restored to flying condition by the Commemorative Air Force organization.
The DC-3 / C-47. In my opinion due to excellence of design, the ability to handle any job given it, and sheer longevity (look how many are still flying, doing what they were meant to do) the greatest airplane of all time. For now.
Speaking of the DC-3/C-47/R4D/Dakota, I was at a car show in Carlisle, Pennsylvania this past weekend and every day a C-47 flew overhead. Invasion stripes, too. Followed by a P-51 Mustang. Sweet music, life is good.
Daks over Normandy sounds awesome! I've been to IWM Duxford- you can fly in a Tiger Moth, a DeHavilland Dragon Rapide or a 2-seat Spitfire, all for a fee. Guess what I'm doing next year!
Thanks for reminding me 54, I should have included the Navy / Marine Corps designator "R4D" as well, although that would have had some people scratching their heads.
The last versions of the DC-3, the "Super DC-3," were still in service when I was in the Corps in the '70s, however they were called C-117's. Very popular with the men who flew them, I might add. Everyone called them "Hummers," since having recip engines they "hummed" while the jets screamed and roared. Needless to say this was long before the "Hummer" vehicle came on the scene.
They are still being flown in Northern Canada in the winter as the guys that fly them haven't found another aircraft that can do the job as well.
Give a listen, you'll like this. When I was a kid, my father had an album of airplane songs by Oscar Brand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5BF2PpV_c
It would be nice a B-17 and B-24 made an appearance. Unfortunately, neither plane had enough range to cross the Atlantic without refueling stops. Goose Bay, Keflavik and Belfast were the stops on Dad's flight to England in 1944.
Stephen Ambrose gave the 8th and 9th Air Forces short shrift in "D-Day".
Thanks 54, that's the first time I've heard it. Good song!
I'll tell you, I'm glad to see the C-47 and the Troop Carrier Wings being showcased, I had two uncles who served in the same.
I believe it was General Eisenhower who said the most important weapons in the American arsenal were the C-47, the "two-and-a-half-ton" truck, and the Higgins landing craft.
Ike might have called it a two and a half ton truck but the GIs called it a deuce and a half. But you knew that.
54light15 Ike might have called it a two and a half ton truck but the GIs called it a deuce and a half. But you knew that.
Quite true. Some Marines were still calling the trucks "deuce-and-a-halfs" during my time, but that phrase was on the way out. The more common name was "six-by," as in 6 x 6, for the all-wheel drive capability.
I just received this a few minutes ago, a bit late for Memorial Day, but it's so moving I have to pass it along.
If this doesn't break your heart, don't worry, you probably don't have one anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpt6Bvr2L-s
"Lest we forget."
Thank you, Wayne.
What those men went through to defeat a nation that was hungry for resorces and had no respect for people of other countries is almost unimaginal to us . I am currently reading Volume 2 of Jerome T Hagen' s three volume work War in the Pacific, and I am to his description of the taking of Iwo Jima.
My husband's grandfather was a radioman in the Navy in WW2 and the stuff that he told my late father in law and my husband was next to unbelievable. The courage and strength our grandparents and parents had to do what they did in less than 4 years was in my opinion impossible. Some of the commands that were air based had wounded and killed rates of 30 percentage a mission.
There are no foxholes in the air. With all due respects, the 8th Air Force suffered more fatalities in WW2 than the Marine Corps.
CSSHEGEWISCH There are no foxholes in the air. With all due respects, the 8th Air Force suffered more fatalities in WW2 than the Marine Corps.
Absolutely true. And in the European Theatre of Operations the casualty rate of the 8th Air Force was second only to the infantry.
Flintlock76 CSSHEGEWISCH There are no foxholes in the air. With all due respects, the 8th Air Force suffered more fatalities in WW2 than the Marine Corps. Absolutely true. And in the European Theatre of Operations the casualty rate of the 8th Air Force was second only to the infantry.
8th Air Force Museum is at Pooler, GA outside Savannah adjacent to I-95.
BaltACD Flintlock76 CSSHEGEWISCH There are no foxholes in the air. With all due respects, the 8th Air Force suffered more fatalities in WW2 than the Marine Corps. Absolutely true. And in the European Theatre of Operations the casualty rate of the 8th Air Force was second only to the infantry. 8th Air Force Museum is at Pooler, GA outside Savannah adjacent to I-95.
So it is, and we've been there.
MORE than well worth a stop, it's magnificent! We didn't expect to be there for more than an hour, and wound up spending nearly half a day.
A beautiful tribute to the military legend that the "Mighty 8th" is.
When my father in law died going thru his personal belongings we found his dad's WW2 diary. Both my hubby and I knew he had served in WW2 in the ETO however he had never told his kids what he had done in the war even when he was dying of cancer. My FIL had read this diary and said I now knew why my dad was the meek man he was. It was his journal of his 35 missions he had done as a ball turret gunner on a B-24 first based out of North Africa then Italy. He described his first mission to his last. The terror of being the man in the fishbowl seeing his friends and crewmates killed around him yet somehow coming home alive. Out of the 10 men that he went on his first mission on and he was a replacement for the ball turret gunner on that one the original had a hot appendix that had to be removed he was the only survivor that came home. How he had a sinus infection on another mission and the crew flew off and was shot down that mission.
Go to You Tube and look up "Daks over Nomandy" there are several videos featuring a legendary aircraft. A big salute to the D-Day veterans and may we remember them and what they achieved forever!
Making the gun that ensured enemy planes did not survive the war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVeLsJtId_g
[quote user="BOB WITHORN"
]Shadow, Dad had simular stories, 30 missions in B-24's as the bombardier. Three occasions when he got lucky he wasn't on board.
[/quote]
I watched the 75th Anniversary of the D-Day invasion with aimilar interests. Many of us 'War Babies' grew up as Bob Whithorn had; With parent(s?) that had served durig the WWII era. Questions about "...What did you do in the War....? Went unanswered for years. Only after years, 'time' allowed some of us to find out those roles, they had played.
My dad, joined the Navy after, Pearl Harbor; just like so may did. He wound up in the first Annapolis Class of '90 day wonders'. Went on to be assigned to the Amphibious Forces [on LCI's] and wound up in the Mediterranean Theater for 22 months. Making landings in that theater, until Operation Dragoon (nee: Anvil) That was set ot counteract Operation Overlord in June 1944.
After 1945, his ship was assigned to the Memphis District of the US Corps of Engineers. We had a chance to go on board one sunday, when it was tied up in Memphis. After that duty, it was taken out into the Gulf ofMexico, and sunk, as part of a reef.
I grew up on Long Island and every kid's father served in the war. My old man graduated high school in 1944 and immediately joined the USAAF. He washed out of pilot school (he said he cried like a baby when that happened due to his eyesight) and became a dorsal gunner on B-29s. Sat in a dome on top of the fuselage and controlled the fore and after turrets using a type of computer, he said. The war ended before he was sent to the Pacific.
My godfather (friend of Dad) was a blister gunner on a B-29 with the 20th AF. He mentioned that control of the guns could be passed to other gunners as needed. He also recalled that the 509th CG was set apart from everybody else on Tinian.
One of my brothers joined the Air Force in the spring of 1943; his work was that of a control tower operator in British Guiana--sending planes across the Atlantic to North Africa.
Another brother joined the Navy, also in the spring of 1943; he was a radarman on a minesweep, joining his ship in North Africa in 1944.
CSSHEGEWISCH My godfather (friend of Dad) was a blister gunner on a B-29 with the 20th AF. He mentioned that control of the guns could be passed to other gunners as needed. He also recalled that the 509th CG was set apart from everybody else on Tinian.
The rest of the bomb groups on Tinian were a bit leery and weary of just what was going on over at the 509th's area, since all they seemed to do was fly practice missions and absolutely nothing else.
They even composed a bit of nasty doggerel verse about them, one stanza of which goes like this...
"Into the air the secret rose, where they're going nobody knows.
Tomorrow they'll return again, but we'll never know just where they've been.
Don't ask about results and such, unless you want to get in Dutch!
But take it from one who knows the score, the 509th is winning the war!"
I imagine there were a lot of red faces on Tinian after August 6th, 1945.
What most of the crews of the B-29 did not know is the planes of the 509th had been modified to carry the Atomic weapons that were designed to fit into the bay of the B29. Certain planes where designed to carry the Little Boy bomb like the kind used over Hiroshima and others where modified to carry the Fat Man style. Other planes were designed to carry sensor and weather measuring data to see just what these bombs did as everything up until August the 6th except for the Trinity test was guess work by some of the best minds in the freaking world. The reason why Japan never raised any alarms or fired at the planes that dropped the bombs was simple they had done this multiple times flying in a 3 plane formation and the target cities were used to seeing them doing recon runs at least at Hiroshima they had flown over it over 50 times.
Deggesty ...his work was that of a control tower operator in British Guiana--sending planes across the Atlantic to North Africa.
I spent a year on a South Pacific island (atoll). We were there to support missile "landings," but the airstrip on the island was built to support ferry operations - moving bombers to Australia.
The island (Canton, now Kanton) is only 5 miles by 9 miles, and "hollow" at that. I image the crews were happy to see it after flying over 1000 miles from Christmas Island (itself 1300+ miles from Hawaii). Their next hop was 1200 miles to Fiji.
Canton Island was also a stop for the Pan Am Clippers before the war.
There are those who feel that Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan may have crash landed on one of the Phoenix Island group. As I spent time on Canton, I was contacted by one of that group about an aircraft engine that may have been recovered from said island. Unfortunately, my memory is very gray on that.
tree68 Deggesty ...his work was that of a control tower operator in British Guiana--sending planes across the Atlantic to North Africa. I spent a year on a South Pacific island (atoll). We were there to support missile "landings," but the airstrip on the island was built to support ferry operations - moving bombers to Australia. The island (Canton, now Kanton) is only 5 miles by 9 miles, and "hollow" at that. I image the crews were happy to see it after flying over 1000 miles from Christmas Island (itself 1300+ miles from Hawaii). Their next hop was 1200 miles to Fiji. Canton Island was also a stop for the Pan Am Clippers before the war. There are those who feel that Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan may have crash landed on one of the Phoenix Island group. As I spent time on Canton, I was contacted by one of that group about an aircraft engine that may have been recovered from said island. Unfortunately, my memory is very gray on that.
Kanton Island
https://earth.google.com/web/@-2.81750835,-171.66929162,-0.80671314a,23234.0778986d,35y,0h,0t,0r
BaltACDKanton Island
That's the place! It was a joint US/British possession, and was then turned over to the island nation of Kiribati (kiribahs).
I got as far as the southeast tip via land, and over to the "British Side" via boat. Did a fair amount of skin diving, too. Talk about beautiful (except where they'd blasted the channel between the two sides and the seaplane runways).
The north side had the runway - two, actually - the second, for fighters, is hard to distinguish now. The south side (the British side) had the Pan Am facilities. You can't really make out the seaplane "runways" in the satellite photos.
The main cantonment area was just south of the air terminal - you can make out the streets and some of the building locations. Most of the building materials have been scavenged.
The island had an active settlement until jets were able to make it non-stop to Australia, making an interim stop unnecessary.
I just noticed that the road between the main cantonment area and the port facilities is now broken - Mother Nature claiming her own, I guess.
There is an old shipwreck just off the south side of the main channel. Not much of it left when I was there, and I suppose less, now.
During the Gemini flights, Canton was a tracking/communications station. The antenna was still there back in 1972. While I was there, we had two very large tracking dishes, and on the southeastern tip of the island was the "splash detection radar," which measured where the incoming missiles landed in the ocean.
We also had a weather radar to track any rain that might effect the accuracy of measurements, and we launched a daily weather balloon as well.
It was an interesting year...
Tree, 380th B/G left San Fran., flew to Hawaii then down to Christmas Is, next was to your 'home away from home" Kanton Island and then indeed on to Fiji. Same route my dad's crew took in Jan. 1945, ending up in New Guinea at I believe Biak for staging up to the P.I. on Mindoro Is. at Murtha Strip.
BOB WITHORN Tree, 380th B/G left San Fran., flew to Hawaii then down to Christmas Is, next was to your 'home away from home" Kanton Island and then indeed on to Fiji. Same route my dad's crew took in Jan. 1945, ending up in New Guinea at I believe Biak for staging up to the P.I. on Mindoro Is. at Murtha Strip.
While I was there we had maybe 400 people on the island. Hard to imagine what it was like with the 20,000 I've seen referenced in info about the war years there.
The big gun emplacements (sans guns) are still there, as are portions of the hospital - which included a lot of concrete.
Fresh water was, as one could guess, scarce, having to be made, as it were. As a result baths/showers were rare as well, as it's no fun having salt water dry on your skin.
The soldiers would spot a rain shower coming toward the island and get lathered up with seawater, only to have the rain shower split and go around the island. Rinse with sea water, complain, life goes on.
Shadow the Cats owner What most of the crews of the B-29 did not know is the planes of the 509th had been modified to carry the Atomic weapons that were designed to fit into the bay of the B29. Certain planes where designed to carry the Little Boy bomb like the kind used over Hiroshima and others where modified to carry the Fat Man style. Other planes were designed to carry sensor and weather measuring data to see just what these bombs did as everything up until August the 6th except for the Trinity test was guess work by some of the best minds in the freaking world. The reason why Japan never raised any alarms or fired at the planes that dropped the bombs was simple they had done this multiple times flying in a 3 plane formation and the target cities were used to seeing them doing recon runs at least at Hiroshima they had flown over it over 50 times.
My father was part of the 509 on Tinnan on one of those 'other' planes. Before that they used the B29 for Hump Flights.
I just looked up the AT-802 out of curiousity. Amazing airplane, and it kinda-sorta looks like a baby Stuka!
Here's the skinny for all those interested, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Tractor_AT-802
I found the counter-insurgency light attack variant interesting as well. Reminded me of the Cavalier Turbo Mustang from around 1970, intended as a counter-insurgency aircraft as well. The Cavalier didn't have any takers as I recall, ahead of it's time I suppose.
Flintlock76Amazing airplane, and it kinda-sorta looks like a baby Stuka! ... I found the counter-insurgency light attack variant interesting as well.
Then you'll love this 'slightly modified' version of the Thrush competition, from 2017:
When you get those turboprop engines on there, interesting things start to become possible. Pity the Defender aircraft from Canada didn't evolve that way!
Wow.
That stretched-out snoot makes it look like a psychotic ant-eater. Scary.
I wonder if they've considered putting a Jericho-Trompete on it?
Flintlock76 wonder if they've considered putting a Jericho-Trompete on it?
None of the armament is optimized to be fired or released in a dive. Why waste the horsepower to drive the si-reens, even with a thousand shp of turboprop?
(For those who don't recognize the reference, listen up.
Personally I think the modern equivalent is a chain gun; if anything even more evocative when you spin it up.
OvermodNone of the armament is optimized to be fired or released in a dive. Why waste the horsepower to drive the si-reens, even with a thousand shp of turboprop?
It'd probably be easier just to mount a Q2B (or E-Q2B) on it...
Of course, people ignore those, too...
They were propeller-driven. But the drag cost about 15 mph on an already slow plane.
charlie hebdo They were propeller-driven. But the drag cost about 15 mph on an already slow plane.
I saw that when I looked them up to see just how they did work. I knew they used some sort of siren, but the how was something I wasn't aware of.
Interesting that they took that much speed off...
tree68 charlie hebdo They were propeller-driven. But the drag cost about 15 mph on an already slow plane. I saw that when I looked them up to see just how they did work. I knew they used some sort of siren, but the how was something I wasn't aware of. Interesting that they took that much speed off...
That's why the sirens were eliminated on later models of the Ju 87, such as the G and some D series.
When I was a kid watching the old war movies with the screaming dive bombers I assummed the sound was the engines in the dive.
It was not until I was older and heard of the sirens that I understood what the sound really was.
So I then researched why they were installed. The same reason why bombs had the whistle on them... originally it was considered proper "gentlemanly" warfare to warn people that they were under attack (i.e.: about to die).
It was later decided that it was of value as a terror weapon... scare the people to death before you blew them away.
When it was found that a complete surprise attack was more effective as a terror weapon, (people are more afraid of the unknown) they were no longer installed.
Those Stuka sirens were automatically engaged when the dive brakes were deployed. The problem was, sometimes the clutch malfunctioned after the dive and the Stuka pilot would have to put up with the damn thing all the way home.
As Charlie said, later models didn't have the sirens. In fact, the sirens wound up being removed on the planes already out there. Not worth the trouble.
And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services. Same with torpedo bombing, that ended with WW2 as well. It hasn't been missed.
Flintlock76And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services.
About as close an anyone probably comes is the "pop-up' technique used by A-10's. They fly nap-of-the-earth until just before reaching their target, then pop up and dive in to drop their bomb. At least, that's how they did it when I was the "Hawg Smoke" competition some years back. They certainly don't come in from 15,000 feet...
I suspect missiles (like the Exocet) have probably replaced WWII-style torpedo attacks, not to mention dive bombing.
Flintlock76 And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services. Same with torpedo bombing, that ended with WW2 as well. It hasn't been missed.
The advantage of dive bombing was that the bomb could be very accurately placed (including moving targets) with good pilots capable of hitting within 50' of the aiming point. "Smart bombs" do an even better job and don't require the plane to be an easy target.
The last combat use for an aerial torpedo was in the Korean war, a reprise of the Dam Busters raid on a smaller scale. OTOH, and aerial homing torpedo would be a good ASW weapon.
Flintlock76 Those Stuka sirens were automatically engaged when the dive brakes were deployed. The problem was, sometimes the clutch malfunctioned after the dive and the Stuka pilot would have to put up with the damn thing all the way home. As Charlie said, later models didn't have the sirens. In fact, the sirens wound up being removed on the planes already out there. Not worth the trouble. And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services. Same with torpedo bombing, that ended with WW2 as well. It hasn't been missed.
Stukas got a 2nd life on the Eastern Front as low level, anti-tank, anti-vehicle weapons, no longer dive bombing. Most were armed with 20-40mm (or even larger) anti-tank cannons firing AP shells. Some carried rockets, some anti-personnel bombs In this role they were lethal. Hans Ulrich Rudel was the most proficient, destroying 519 tanks, one battleship and one cruiser and numerous soft vehicles. He remained an unreconstructed Nazi the rest of his life until death in 1982.
I spent many a day out at the range with the previous generation of fighter-bombers testing the new fangled laser guided weapons. The 'gold standard' for weapons carriage seemed to be about 16K lbs max for a 'dumb bomb' load - the A-10, A-7 (in my day, ANG) and F-16 all could. Both pop-up and shallow angle dive releases were typically used.
The latest guided weapons have more guidance options and hopefully are more effective in inclement weather.
BTW major warbird sightings are to be had at the EAA Airventure now underway. Several live cameras are to be seen on YT; the level of air traffic handled by the controllers is astonishing.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Yeah Charlie, Hans-Ulrich Rudel was definately what I'd call a "tarnished eagle." At least, even though a Nazi party member, he fought a hard war, was a good soldier, and never committed any atrocities. Lost a leg in combat and still kept climbing into a cockpit. Giving credit where credit is due he was certainly a brave man, although a tainted one.
Did you know the US Air Force called him in as a consultant during the development of the A-10? Interesting, huh? I guess if you're looking to bust tanks you might as well talk to the guy who's busted more than anyone else has, or ever will.
And Mike, during the week of the EAA Airventure Oshkosh Airport is the busiest airport in the world!
I looked at the EAA live camera link. Oh my dear God. A DeHavilland "Mosquito," Douglas Skyraiders, a MiG-17, an F4U "Corsair," a gaggle of T-28's, I remember those from Quantico in the 70's. I'm turning green with envy! And all the others, what beautiful machines!
If one of the cameras pans over a World War One assortment that'll be it, Lady Firestorm will come home and find me passed out on the floor!
PS: Just took another look and saw a Bleriot! That's it, I'm done!
For now.
Mosquito. Wow.
charlie hebdo Mosquito. Wow.
I know man, I couldn't believe what I saw either! I know some have been restored but I didn't think one was here in the US!
Lord, they've got some good stuff there! There's a B-17 and some C-47's as well!
I just took another look at the Oshkosh live cam.
ANOTHER Mig-17, B-25's, an A-26, more AT-6's, T-34's, more Corsairs, Stearman PT-17's, and a P-82 "Twin Mustang." This is unbelieveable!
You guys have GOT to see this!
TWO Ford Tri-Motors!
That P-82 is particularly special, since it's a prototype XP-82 and the only P/F-82 that's airworthy in the world. Has only been flying for a few months after being rescued from the Walter Soplata farm and undergoing a long restoration, and I believe is the first time a Twin Mustang has been flyable since the Confederate Air Force had a hard landing on their former example three decades ago.
Flintlock76 I just took another look at the Oshkosh live cam. ANOTHER Mig-17, B-25's, an A-26, more AT-6's, T-34's, more Corsairs, Stearman PT-17's, and a P-82 "Twin Mustang." This is unbelieveable! You guys have GOT to see this! TWO Ford Tri-Motors!
When you're the premier fly-in for this part of the world - everyone wants to be there.
Got to love an off topic that lasts this long. Shameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board). We have Sopwith Pup and Dolphin copies coming on line shortly. Both will have the original engines. To keep me out of trouble with the admin-railroad related-you can get to us by both Amtrak and Metro North.
Very much on topic!!!
.
MikeFFShameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board).
Just down the road from Orlot -- many happy hours gainfully wasted there. And I'll never finish Henry Forster's Spad XIII 'replica' now, but I'd sure have had fun with it. Shameless promotion time for Hudson River Heritage, too!
Nothing's unwelcome here when it concerns things that move, whether they roll, fly, or float!
Anyone else besides me overdosing on Oshkosh?
Overmod MikeFF Shameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board). Just down the road from Orlot -- many happy hours gainfully wasted there. And I'll never finish Henry Forster's Spad XIII 'replica' now, but I'd sure have had fun with it. Shameless promotion for Hudson River Heritage, too!
MikeFF Shameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board).
Just down the road from Orlot -- many happy hours gainfully wasted there. And I'll never finish Henry Forster's Spad XIII 'replica' now, but I'd sure have had fun with it. Shameless promotion for Hudson River Heritage, too!
I think you or someone else posted a photo of a turboprop modern plane suitable for ground support fire. Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano A-29
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/26/air-force-wants-more-money-light-attack-aircraft-effort.html
tree68Had a chance to take a self-guided tour of a B-17 at an air show ... [T]he tail gunner's position and the ball turret were out of the question...
A little Procrustean surgery and we'll have you in there in a trice. (You may no longer be equipped to shoot well ... but we'll address that problem when we come to it...)
BTW, note that turret gunning was the source of one of the first real simulators (as opposed to Link trainers with the hood) -- see this story for details.
Much as I love the theory and practice of the Sperry ball turret, Randall Jarrell has the word:
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Goes without saying the ball turret gunners were all "shortys." I went to a B-17 on display at Richmond Airport a few years back. I'm a six-footer, and I didn't even try to get in the thing, the ball turret that is. The rest of the plane's not too bad, but it's not as roomy in there as people think it is.
Come to think of it, if what I read is true no WW2 Red Army tankers were over 5'8", big guys couldn't move around in a T-34 all that well. I've been in one and let me tell you, it is tight in there!
The last tank I was in was an American M-48. Compared to a T-34 it's like a stretch limo!
Flintlock76The rest of the plane's not too bad, but it's not as roomy in there as people think it is.
I tried to find a picture of Roy Forrest's 'roadster' but couldn't. That at least had plenty of headroom.
As I recall, Forrest liked to buzz B-24 drivers returning from missions. Apparently he was made to stop when tired pilots reported they were seeing open B-17s flown by women in babushkas...
"Death Of The Ball Turret Gunner."
Probably one of the grimmest poems ever written. Says it all, doesn't it?
The ball turrets weren't missed at all when they were rendered obsolete by the B-29's remote control system.
Overmod, you'll have to tell us a bit more about Roy Forrest's "roadster." I'm unfamiliar with his story and couldn't find anything on line. Sounds interesting.
See the plan to attack the Tirpitz (before the British sank her) when B-17F 42-30595 had the fuselage top removed to facilitate loading with hydrostatic bombs.
This was taken advantage of during the development of the Aphrodite/Anvil/Castor remote-control project, in part a response to the German V-weapon sites. There were pictures in Olsen's Aphrodite: Desperate Mission which was one of my favorite books in the early '70s -- I believe there are more books on this now. Think war-weary bombers used to carry 10 tons of Torpex into hardened facilities like the Heligoland sub pens by remote control -- call it a 20,000lb guided missile.
This is the project on which cold-soldered joints and sloppy electrical engineering killed Joe Kennedy, Jr.
Overmod See the plan to attack the Tirpitz (before the British sank her) when B-17F 42-30595 had the fuselage top removed to facilitate loading with hydrostatic bombs. This was taken advantage of during the development of the Aphrodite/Anvil/Castor remote-control project, in part a response to the German V-weapon sites. There were pictures in Olsen's Aphrodite: Desperate Mission which was one of my favorite books in the early '70s -- I believe there are more books on this now. Think war-weary bombers used to carry 10 tons of Torpex into hardened facilities like the Heligoland sub pens by remote control -- call it a 20,000lb guided missile. This is the project on which cold-soldered joints and sloppy electrical engineering killed Joe Kennedy, Jr.
I've been to modern day Helgoland. Some craters are still there from bombing raids late in the war.. It took one of the largest explosions ever (April1947 the Royal Navy detonated 6,700 tonnes of explosives) to destroy some of the concrete bunkers, including the many hidden 17" gun emplacements which date to WWI, and can still be seen along the cliffs. It's a beautiful place and was where Heisenberg (on holiday to escape hayfever) discovered his equation underlying quantum mechanics in 1925.
Thanks Overmod, I'll have to look into that info you sent.
Charli-H, I'm not surprised it took so much explosive to demolish those German gun emplacements. The World War Two era flak towers were so ruggedly built no-one's ever tried to demolish them, it was easier just to let them stand. One in Berlin had an artificial hill built around it and planted with trees!
charlie hebdo Overmod See the plan to attack the Tirpitz (before the British sank her) when B-17F 42-30595 had the fuselage top removed to facilitate loading with hydrostatic bombs. This was taken advantage of during the development of the Aphrodite/Anvil/Castor remote-control project, in part a response to the German V-weapon sites. There were pictures in Olsen's Aphrodite: Desperate Mission which was one of my favorite books in the early '70s -- I believe there are more books on this now. Think war-weary bombers used to carry 10 tons of Torpex into hardened facilities like the Heligoland sub pens by remote control -- call it a 20,000lb guided missile. This is the project on which cold-soldered joints and sloppy electrical engineering killed Joe Kennedy, Jr. I've been to modern day Helgoland. Some craters are still there from bombing raids late in the war.. It took one of the largest explosions ever (April1947 the Royal Navy detonated 6,700 tonnes of explosives) to destroy some of the concrete bunkers, including the many hidden 17" gun emplacements which date to WWI, and can still be seen along the cliffs. It's a beautiful place and was where Heisenberg (on holiday to escape hayfever) discovered his equation underlying quantum mechanics in 1925.
What was the point? Good question. Maybe part of the effort to make double-damn sure a resurgent Germany couldn't use them again? Sometimes people do over-react (for lack of a better term) after a hard bloody war, and especially after finding out what the Third Reich was capable of. It also made sense to completely disband the German military after the war, but guess what? By the mid-Fifties it was necessary to bring it back, with the Cold War and all. The Soviets did the same thing in East Germany.
Kind of like the MacArthur Constitution that Japan operates under now. There's a clause in there preventing Japan from fighting any kind of offensive war, of any kind, even if they're the "good guys."
Probably, certainly, an obsolete clause now, but in the post-war era it seemed like a good idea.
The Brits didn't want to give Helgoland back. How the islanders got them out is an interesting story. Heck the Brits opposed German reunification when the Cold War ended. GHW Bush and Gorby made it happen.
charlie hebdo The Brits didn't want to give Helgoland back. How the islanders got them out is an interesting story. Heck the Brits opposed German reunification when the Cold War ended. GHW Bush and Gorby made it happen.
Can't say I blame them.
A DC-3 by any other name is still a DC-3, even though it has at least a dozen Navy and Air Force designations.
For those who don't know, the C-117 was the last variant of the Douglas DC-3. Up-engined, and with a slightly redesigned wing and tail it was marketed as the "Super DC-3."
No airlines were interested, but the Air Force, Navy, and Marines liked it just fine and bought a number of them. The Marines were still operating them in the 70's when I was stationed at Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point in North Carolina. We called them "Hummers." Why? Well, jets screamed, but "Hummers" hummed! Everyone loved them, especially the pilots who flew them.
Here's a photo...
https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/142601/50826-usa-marine-corps-douglas-c-117/
Not a war bird - but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JONkLEx6zeE
BaltACD Not a war bird - but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JONkLEx6zeE
Why, now that you mention it, at 0:42:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R55taADMUpY
12 o'clock high? B17 flew over our "air space" a few times during EAA last week.
Aluminum Overcast was providing rides during Oshkosh '19
https://www.eaa.org/shop/Flights/B17.aspx
This was from one of the day's USAF Heritage Flights
It may be just the angle of the photo but that B-17G looks like it has the shorter nose glass of a B-17E.
That may just be a B-17E nose glass. Sometimes restorers have to go with what parts and components are available, and not what they wish they could have.
It's a beauty just the same!
I don't want to hijack Dave Klepper's "Jack May" thread under the "Transit" column any more than I have already, so I'm putting this here where it should be.
Overmod and I had a discussion going about the SPAD XIII fighter from World War One, and I found a GOOD video about the building of a replica of the same.
It's an Italian video called "Ricostuzione Dello SPAD XIII."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz81eTwyWmQ
And here's the finished product in flight. I've probably posted this in the past.
"Reconstruction of the SPAD XIII." Very good. But why spoil it with your gratuitous ethnic/immigrant insult?
It's OK Charlie, I'm half-Italian, I'm allowed!
Looks like you're the last guy to find out, I thought everyone knew by now.
For further reference, I'm half-Irish as well, so if I make "beer and potatoes" jokes I figure I'm allowed to do that as well.
No-one knows how to laugh at themselves like the Italians and the Irish do!
Language creates reality - that's why: stay respectful and friendly. This is the reality we want, isn't it? It doesn't matter if you are of full Italian ancestry or Irish or whatever. That sort of sophomoric, ethnic 'humor' has no value, especially now in a damaged world.
Point taken, but anyone who knows me from this site will tell you I've never hidden behind the anonymity of the Internet to insult or be cruel to anyone. I've shown a bit of anger from time to time, I'll admit that, but have alway stood behind what I've had to say.
Now that said, how about the stunning craftsmanship that went into that airplane?
Well said. I am quite certain you are not a bigot or a hate-filled person. My point is that in public discussions, such as on this forum, it is important to watch such language to keep our discourse civil. The coarsening of language is bad enough. Normalizing ehtnic/racial taunts should no longer be tolerated.
The SPAD was not, IMO, un bellissimo aereo, but it was a very effective fighter: fast, well-armed, relatively easy to fly, fairly sturdy and capable of taking a lot of shots and still flyable.
charlie hebdo Normalizing ethnic/racial taunts should no longer be tolerated.
Especially when, as here, the guy has built other full replica aircraft, including a Bleriot and a Wright Flyer, before this one. You might as well make fun of Hector Bugatti for the $21,000 oil change the unrelated Europeans charge for the Veyron oil change, in dialect.
I won't say that some dialect humor isn't still amusing ... but the punchline would have to depend heavily on the dialect (Norfolk, Virginia or spelling Mississippi come to mind), and even then if the intent is mocking or ethnically disparaging I'd concur with charlie that it really isn't funny any more.
I wouldn't have complained, but I have to jump in with moral support now that he's complained.
OK gents, I apologize if I offended ANYONE. Won't happen again. No more dialect humor.
I'll clean up the original post.
Now, thoughts on that SPAD construction video? Seeing how it was built I can understand how that airplane could take the punishment it did.
By the way, I got my answer as to what kind of engine was installed. Good choice!
As far as WW1 fighters are concerned some have said the Fokker D-7 was the best of them all, but in my opinion by 1918 they were all pretty darn good. As in any air combat from that time to this the victor was going to be the one who was the best pilot, tacticial, and marksman.
At Old Rhinebeck we have a SPAD VII copy with a Lycoming 0-320 as we need one airplane we can count on and fly to other venues. It has flown from New York to Air Venture at Oshkosh and back (well almost back–that is another story.) I'd post a picture, but don't have to patience to deal with all that. If you would like to see it, it is on our homepage slide show. www.oldrhinebeck.org Hope I have not violated any policies...we are a non-profit museum chartered by the State of NY.
Mike, I've seen videos of the Rhinebeck SPAD VII inflight, and it's gorgeous!
Maybe you can answer a question? Rhinebeck has an Albatros D-V. The Albatros fighters were a terror for a while, but by 1917 Von Richtofen was sick of them, calling them "...those lousy Albatroses!"
I know Rhinebeck's is a replica, but how good an airplane is it, how does it handle, and given the choice would any of your staff want to go into a fight with it against any other WW1 type?
The pilots generally love it. They think it would be very competitive, but the Triplane can outfly almost anything, and, then, along came the Fokker D VII, and that was all she wrote. Manfred got a lot of victories in the Alby. However, the D V did have a reputation for a structural problem in the lower wing. Our D Va copy has the short, stiffening strut, which seemed to solve it. Ours has a 200 hp Ranger until we can find another 150 Mercedes crankshaft. It is down for maintenance and we hope to have it back before the end of the season.
Thanks Mike! You see, I've always liked the streamlined, shark-like look of the Albatros, but of course looks aren't everything and if the Baron didn't like it at some point...
I don't doubt the Triplane can outfly almost anything, Von Richthofen was thrilled with it the first time he flew one. "It climbs like a monkey!"
Flintlock76Thanks Mike! You see, I've always liked the streamlined, shark-like look of the Albatros, but of course looks aren't everything and if the Baron didn't like it at some point...
Mike and charlie hebdo are probably the reigning experts here, so they may disagree, but my understanding was that aircraft were evolving so quickly and dramatically by early 1918 that rapid obsolescence could make even good earlier designs deadly to fly. I think mercifully we were spared what would have followed in 1919, in a great many respects, although I think it would have been interesting to see some of the resulting designs actually fly against each other.
... I don't doubt the Triplane can outfly almost anything, Von Richthofen was thrilled with it the first time he flew one. "It climbs like a monkey!"
More precisely, it can outturn almost anything, which in the brief days of dogfighting gave you a combat advantage. (See the Sopwith Tripe for the British version and its history) Problem is that it's bone slow anywhere else, including relative speed in an attempted dive, almost without regard to how much 'engine' you can put on it. As soon as tactics changed to rapid attack 'out of the sun' and speeds increased to where the ability to stay inside your opponent in a turn and bring guns to bear was less useful, most of the usefulness of a triplane as a fighting instrument was gone.
This for air-to-air 'knightly tourney' combat; people tend to forget that the major purpose of fighters in that war was not to engage other fighters but to intercept other forms of strategic air -- mostly reconnaissance and artillery-spotting, but the age of mass air bombardment was clearly getting under way (if still possessed of dubious 'throw weight' and actual tactical significance even in the last year of the War) and we could expect just the kind of interaction between 'little friends' for formation mass bombing missions that we came to see decades later using much more sophisticated engineering under similar 'evolutionary' pressure. Very different types of aircraft, flown differently, fulfil most escort missions.
Flintlock76 OK gents, I apologize if I offended ANYONE. Won't happen again. No more dialect humor. I'll clean up the original post. Now, thoughts on that SPAD construction video? Seeing how it was built I can understand how that airplane could take the punishment it did. By the way, I got my answer as to what kind of engine was installed. Good choice! As far as WW1 fighters are concerned some have said the Fokker D-7 was the best of them all, but in my opinion by 1918 they were all pretty darn good. As in any air combat from that time to this the victor was going to be the one who was the best pilot, tacticial, and marksman.
There is some positive consensus about the D.VII, though the British S.E.5a was a pretty effective machine as well, considerably faster than the Fokker:138mph vs 117 mph on a D.VII with the standard Mercedes D.IIIaü or 124 mph on D.VIIs equipped with the new BMW IIIa. The D.VII could "hang on its prop" which was useful in combat.
Overmodcharlie hebdo are probably the reigning experts here
No, I'm no expert. I became interested when a relative let me examine the war journal of an ancestor who had won the Blue Max for 44 vicories flying mainly a Fokker Eindecker, an Albatros D.III, a Pfalz D.III and a Fokker D.VII. Heady stuff for a 20-year old history major on his first journey abroad.
Like the controversy over how the Baron was brought down, the "best airplane" will never truly be resolved. It often depended on the pilot. If I had to pick: French: SPAD XIII, British: S.E.5 or Sopwith Snipe (often overlooked), German: Fokker D VII. The "great unknown" the Fokker D VIII (we have a copy with a 160 Gnome)–never saw combat, but was a game changer.
charlie hebdo Overmod charlie hebdo are probably the reigning experts here No, I'm no expert. I became interested when a relative let me examine the war journal of an ancestor who had won the Blue Max for 44 vicories flying mainly a Fokker Eindecker, an Albatros D.III, a Pfalz D.III and a Fokker D.VII. Heady stuff for a 20-year old history major on his first journey abroad.
Overmod charlie hebdo are probably the reigning experts here
Was that Hauptmann Rudolf Berthold by any chance?
Mike, I've read the Fokker D-VIII actually did see some combat, but only in the last weeks of the war, too late to make any significant impact.
One interesting thing about the D-VIII. I read an article in (I think) "Sport Aviation" magazine around 1970 by a gent named Swearingen who built a replica of a D-VIII. Mr. Swearingen went so far as to correspond with Rheinhold Platz, Fokker's chief designer and the man who designed the airplane to begin with, for any advice he could give. This was in the mid-sixties and Herr Platz was still alive at the time.
Herr Platz told Mr. Swearingen that he actually wanted to do a monoplane design in 1917, but this was the time the Luftstreitkraft wanted a triplane, having been very impressed by the performance of the Sopwith Triplane. So, the boss Tony Fokker said "Do me a triplane!" and as we all know what the boss wants, the boss gets!
Mr. Swearingen said it was a good collaboration, but sadly Herr Platz died before the replica was completed.
I was in high school when I read the article and never forgot it.
Oh, and Mr. Swearingen said the replica flew beautifully!
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
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