I am very familiar with the New York Central System and their comuter trains, especially in and around New York City. I probably have 30 books about the NYC, but not being a Pennsy fan I do not have even one about them. In a nutshell did the Pennsylvania Railroad also have as extensive of a comuter system in New York City, or perhaps some other City(s)?
Thanks for the information
Paul
You'll get better answers, but here are some things to get you started:
PRR controlled LIRR, but I don't know if you want to associate LIRR's very extensive commuter operations (even the "LD" trains like the Cannon Ball were more like commuter trains in terms of where they ran and what their clientele rode them for) with the Pennsylvania's operations 'under their own name'.
The PRR had direct commuter service along its New Jersey main line, and it could be argued that much of the traffic on the 'Clockers' was 'commuting' in nature.
There were also several services from central New Jersey, notably the still-extant service to Long Branch (later shared with CNJ). Dave Klepper will know more about some of the esoteric services that were offered at various times, including some services in the area that were not "New York" oriented.
Of course the major PRR presence was in the Philadelphia area, with 'commuter' service as far as Harrisburg, Trenton, and Atlantic City.
The PRR had commuter services in areas other than New York and Philadelphia. Pittsburgh was one, the Chicago area was another, although I don't know much about either; at one time cities like Cincinnati and St Louis had at least one commuter train (if the definition of commuter train is a train timed to accommodate large numbers of people going to or coming from work).
PRR's commuter services were even more extensive than the Central's. AC11000V AC-commutator-motor MP54s ran from both Penn Station and Exchange Place Jersey City to Trenton, Phiadelphia (as locals), short turns to New Burnzwick during rush hour, and Perth Amboy. From Philadelphia Broad Street and then Broad Street Suburban Statioln to Norristown, West Chester, Chestnut Hill, Media, Trenton, New York Penn and Jersey City as locals, and sourth to Wilmington, and west to Paoli, a few continuing to Downingtown and Lancaster.From Baltimore north to Perryville and Townsend and south to Washingtonh. The Jersey shore trains ran behind GG1s to South Amboy, then K4s to Bay l Head Junction, some turning at Red Bank or (forget the name!). Beyond Pearth Amboy the tracks were shared with Jersey Central trains powered by camelback ten wheelers. Some of the Harrsiburg - Philadelphia trains were tijmed to provide a commuter service into Harrisburg, some locomotive hauled and some mu. Pittsbugh had G5 ten wheelers with P54 coaches running east on the main line to Grfeensburg and Latrob, and on the main line west to Chicago to Pitcairn, if my memory is correct. Chicago had commuter trains, G5s again, to Valporaso, with K4s in later years.
PRR was of course involved in the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines, furnishing locomotives and equipment along with the Reading. This included 600V DCtrolley-pole and 3rd rail MP54s on the Glassboro electrified line, which once was electriofied to Atlantic City. The streetcar line in Atlantic City was a PRR subsidiary and the modern Brilliners had a PRR classification.
The PRR and Reading Phily commuter operations, almost as extensive as the PRR's, are merged into one SEPTA operation, with Reading Terminal replaced by the Market East underground station with its connecting tunnel to Broad Street Suburban, now a through station and not a terminal.
The LIRR, with its 600v dc MP54s and G5, E6, and K4 steam and DD1 electric locomotives, had electric service to Rockway Beach and Far Rockaway, eithe rover the Jamaica Bay or around via Valley Stream, Long Beachm Bavylon, West Hempstead, Minaola, Port Washington, and College Point, the latter abandoned. Steam ran to Montauk, Geenpoint with most trains terminating at Speonk, Port Jefferson, and Oyster Bay. The switch from DD1 electric power to steam was always at Jamaica, even though these trains continiued some miles east on third rail track in many cases. in addition to Penn Sta, trains ran to the Long Island City ferry terminal and to Atlantic and Flatbush Avenue in Brookly (only mu electrics).
Does your familiarity with the Central's commuter service include Boston?
train18393did the Pennsylvania Railroad also have as extensive of a comuter system in New York City
PRR's service in the Chicago area lasted into the 1980s, last operated by Amtrak under contract These were the "Valpo dummies" to Valparaiso. PRR also operated at least one commuter-oriented round trip to Cleveland in the 1950s, though it ended at PRR's 55th st. station, where passengers had to board Cleveland Transit to get downtown.
Nowhere near, depending on what you call commuters. Add the clockers and you have a different story. And add the LIRR and the PRR wins. But PRR had those other commuter operations in other cities. If the clockers are considered for both Philly and NY, then Philly's topped NY. But again, NYC had its fairly extensive Boston commuter operation, labeled B&A on its steam locomotives, including lots of 4-6-6T and 4-6-4T tank locomotives.
Thank you folks for the inputs, I figured they did, and I was aware of the Boston and Albany operations. I assumed that the Pennsy did. I was just curious. So the answer is yes is it depends on how you measure. Roller coasters are that way. Which one is the highest, fastest etc., It depends on the criteria.
Thanks again.
Including the Philly-Harrisburg trains and the Clockers as part of commuter service might be stretching the boundaries a bit. This would be similar to counting C&NW Chicago-Milwaukee trains as a commuter operation since the trains were listed in the Milwaukee Division public commuter timetable.
From Wikipedia: "The weekday [PRR] schedule in September 1951 had six trains a day from New York to Trenton, seven from New York to New Brunswick, two from Jersey City to Trenton and six from Jersey City to New Brunswick. That includes just the trains that terminated at Trenton or New Brunswick; many more trains from New York to Philadelphia and beyond carried passengers to some suburban stations." Add the South Amboy and Bay Head trains to that and it's still a fraction of the commuter train count into Grand Central.
I would not disagree with that. The off-peak service on PRR's mainline was largely handled by through trains, such as the Edision, which made most local commuter-station stops, despite running through to Washington. Only if adding LIRR does PRR come out the winner? And the LIRR did run more commuter trains than the Central. But on second thought the PRR is still the winner. Why? Because every Hudson Tube Hudson Terminal - Newark train was actually a timetabled PRR train betwen Journal Square, Jersey City, and Newark, and a joint H&M-PRR ticket was required, and half the rolling stock was labeled Pennsylvania and all the rolling stock, including the 50 cars owned by H&M were painted Tuscan Red. So PRR is stil the winner. Routes instead of number of trains, both had three, with the West Shore counted in the Central's count, with PRR counting mainline, NY&LB, and Newark to JC and HT. Cannot count New Haven trains in the Central's count. Uh, Uh, routes instead of number of trains? I think there were still two inbound and two outbound trains on the Putnam in 1953, so on routes, NYCentral is the winner with four. But of course the New Haven also had four, New Haven, Waaterbury, Danbury, and New Canaan.
PRR steam and electric trains shared the tracks with Hudson Terminal trains from just west of Journal Square to the junction at Kearney,and there was 11000V 25Hz`catenary as well as 600V DC third rail.
daveklepperThe off-peak service on PRR's mainline was largely handled by through trains, such as the Edision, which made most local commuter-station stops, despite running through to Washington.
Not sure of the year, but I did ride the Edison when it stopped at Elizabeth and New Brunzwick, as well as Trenton. Possibly I should have said the major commutor stations. My comment about the joint H&M-PRR trains still stands.
OH, and at one time the New Haven had a fifith route, the Harlem River Shuttle, discontiniued around 1931 or 1932? Ditto the Central with the Gettys Square branch of the Putnam. A short-lived electrification.
The Edison left NY after midnight-- far as we can tell from the timetables its first stop was Baltimore. No coaches.
In the 1950s, one or two NY-Philadelphia trains a day stopped at Elizabeth.
Aha, you are referring to the Edison when it was the overnight sleeper (and coach) train New York - Washington. I rode it a few times with that name and that schedule, but by then, on at least one trip, it also stopped at Philadelphia. But I also once remember going from Newark, DL to New York on a train that I recall being named the Edison, and it did stop at Princeton Jc., New Brunzwick, and Elizabeth and originated in Washington. My memory may be faulty on the name, however, but I was surprised that the train had the name of the former overnight sleeper train. The Edison that was the overnighter was replaced by NY Penn Station drop and pick-up sleepers on the Federal, which I also rode. I think at the time, the name was transferred to the train I rode from Newark, DL. You may be right that is was later than the 50s, possibly in the middle or late 60s. Beginning at age 11, in 1943, I rode what is now the NEC fairly frequently, even a youngster by myself, and it is hard for me to remember just which trip occured when.
Princeton Jc. was an important commuting point, and at least one Clocker into Penn in commuting hours in the morning and leaving similarly in the evening stopped there.
When you wrote Baltimore as first stop, you probably did not mean to exclude Newark, NJ. I am fairly certain the overnight NY-Wsh. Edison did pick up there.
Returning to the joint H&M - PRR Hudson Terminal - Newark service, there was dedicated equipment, all painted Tuscan Red, 50 cars owned by PRR and 50 by H&M and used indiscriminately. They all had PRR cab signal equpment in the cabs, which the regular H&M Stillwell-designed cars did not. The also had round end windows, unlike the regular H&M cars, but like the MP54s, and they were capable of higher top speed than the regular H&M cars, which they used between JerseyCity and Kearney.
If the PRR operation into Exchange Place, Jersey City, is considered a New York City commuter operation, then possibly the PRR has the distinction of the last steam operation in New York commuter service, the inbound Broker from Bay Head Junction in the morning and the outbound in the evening, with K4s running into 1957. I think by then the CNJ, Erie, and DL&W were all-diesel. This train did not stop at the normal engine-change point, South Amboy.
There was one more obscure NYC operation on the edge of the commuter district, the Mahopac Branch which quit by the end of the 50s. Toward the end there was a train that started in Brewster, went down the Putnam Division to Mahopac, switched to the Mahopac branch, down to Goldens Bridge, and then down the Harlem Division to GCT.
John Kneiling once wrote part of one of his columns about a book that related how some guys from New York City would take the late afternoon Clockers to Philadelphia to visit their mistresses there, then return early the next morning in time to be at the office when it opened. The point was how reliable and convenient the train service was, at least for that purpose . . .
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr John Kneiling once wrote part of one of his columns about a book that related how some guys from New York City would take the late afternoon Clockers to Philadelphia to visit their mistresses there, then return early the next morning in time to be at the office when it opened. The point was how reliable and convenient the train service was, at least for that purpose . . . - Paul North.
Philadelphia - the place for discount mistresses????
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If I remember correctly, Mahopac was a stop on the Putnam, and several rush hours trains started there and not Brewster, and returned in the evening. Possibly this was Lake Mahopac, not Mahopac. The Mahopac branch train must have changed from steam or diesel to electric power at North White Plains to go to GCT. Are you sure it did not just run to Sedgewick Avenue like the regujlar Putnam trains, not GCT? How many and what were the stations betwen the Putnam and Harlem Divisions? You really taught me something, because I never knew there was passenger service on this track.
Incidentally, the wye track connection for the Putnam off the Harlem at Brewster is still in place long after the Putnam itself was removed.
daveklepper If I remember correctly, Mahopac was a stop on the Putnam, and several rush hours trains started there and not Brewster, and returned in the evening. Possibly this was Lake Mahopac, not Mahopac. The Mahopac branch train must have changed from steam or diesel to electric power at North White Plains to go to GCT. Are you sure it did not just run to Sedgewick Avenue like the regujlar Putnam trains, not GCT? How many and what were the stations betwen the Putnam and Harlem Divisions? You really taught me something, because I never knew there was passenger service on this track. Incidentally, the wye track connection for the Putnam off the Harlem at Brewster is still in place long after the Putnam itself was removed.
Lake Mahopac was a stop on both the branch and the Putnam Division. The night layover yard for most commuter trains on the Putnam, was at Yorktown Hights. The outline of the turntable is preserved in a park along the rails-to-trails.
The (Lake) Mahopac branch was 7.2 miles. It began at Goldens Bridge, junction with the Harlem Division, and ran thru Lincondale, Shenorock, XC Crossing (with the Putnam), and Lake Mahopac. In Kalmbach's New York Central in the Hudson Valley by Gorge Drury, on p 88 it says "Until April 1, 1959, a few Harlem Division trains operated via Mahopac, using the branch between Goldens Bridge and XC, and the upper end of the Putnam Division between XC and Putnam Junction" Thus passenger service continued on this end of the Putnam, almost a year after it ended on the rest of the Division. An old bridge near Goldens Bridge restricted the branch to ten-wheelers. I'm sure any trains that came off the branch, would change to electric at NWP.
I figured they kept the wye track connection to the Putnam to turn Brewster commuter trains in the diesel years, and maybe also P-S EMUs afterwords, but I thought todays EMUs had permenent seats in both directions. Nevertheless, I ws glad to see in recent Google Earth images that they have cleared brush along the long stem of the wye in the last 2 years.
Dunno. I believe the book was "The Madams of San Francisco" by Curt Gentry (Ballantine Books, 1964). Not having read it, I have no idea how Philadelphia (or New York City, or the PRR) fit in with that title - but that was the refernce in his column, IIRC. Someday I'll dig back through and pin down the date of it.
BaltACDPhiladelphia - the place for discount mistresses????
OK, I'll bite -- what's the discount-mattress company slogan this is a pun on?
Or do you get a special rate from Destiny's Chamber?
The postwar PS mus, the 1000s and 1100s, included both motors and a few trailers, the latter including the special club cars. The motors had vestibule controls at both ends. If my memory is correct, the trailers were pure trailers on the NYC not control trailers. Short off-peak trains generlly did not have trailers, long rush-hour trains had one or two. If my memory is correct on this. Then there were the case of a Budd RDC from Poughkeepsie coupling behind an mu train at Harmon and being pulled as a trailer to GCT. My understanding was that these trains generally were on the upper level and used the loop tracks. One diesel had to be kept on at low throttle to provide lights and ac or heat. Never rode this service but see it in the evening with the Budd at the rear of the train.
The 1000s were wiped out with the arrival of the M1s except for the club cars, one of which lasted until the end of the 1100s with the arrival of the M3s. The 1000s and 1100s could mu together and did. The 1100s had a lower roof line.
It is still possible the wye was used to turn a complete train, to keep cars in a specific order.
daveklepperThe postwar PS mus, the 1000s and 1100s, included both motors and a few trailers, the latter including the special club cars.
Weren't at least some of the 1000s (ex NYC 4500s) St. Louis Car?
Staufer (in NYC Later Power) covers the 4500s, 4600s, and 4700s. He nowhere mentions anything about trailers in that range I can find. Plenty of trailers in the older series, of course, but weren't those all gone by the early '60s?
My grandfather was a sign painter, did the placards used between acts in vaudaville in New York City and Brooklyn and lived in Jamaica, Queens. For about 6 months during the Depression I am told, he was assigned laid off but was given the chance to work at the Parmount theater in Philadelphia. So, his commute was via the LIRR Jamaica to Pennsylvania Station and the Clocker to Philadelphia in the morning and back in the late afternoon or early evening. He was born and bred NYer who would so rarely step outside the City limits so the daily commute was not a choice but his only choice!
NY area commuting for the PRR was Exchange Place in Jersey City and NY Penn Station to Trenton with shorter runs to Rahway, New Brunswick, and Jersey Avenue and the longer express leaps, the Clockers to Philadelphia, plus service to South Amboy with MU's, the venerable MP54's, and the longer treking New York and Long Branch trains to Bay Head which would change GG's to K4's or diesels at South Amboy. Besides the Broker from Exchange PL. to Bay Head with K4's or Baldwin Sharks, I don't know if there were any other similar daily train movements as the CNJ operated from their own Jersey City Terminal to Bay Head. Other PRR lines (like the Camden and Amboy from South Amboy to Bordentown, and the Freehold line and the Bay Head line south to Seasideheights then west to Toms River and Philadelphia) provided local train services but not what you would call commuter service as was found on the NY&LB and the Main Line.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Dave, the Harlem Division also has EMU-Budd RDC combos. I took one at Xmas time in the late 60s out of GCT. The train came up to the platform, 2 PS EMUs leading the Budd car. I got on, and was wondering about the seat flipping protocol, when the train started, seemingly headed for the bumper post. I then realized we were going around one of subterranean the loops I heard about, and soon were headed out of town. At North White Plains the EMUs were disconnected for the Budd to continue the run north. I was used to the electric/diesel engine changes taking about 5 minutes, but I had no idea how long this type of disconnect would take. I needed to call home to arrange pick-up at the station, so I hopped off the Budd car, found a platform phone booth, made a quick call, and was able to hop back on with a little time to spare.
The "AC-MU" trailers may not have been trailers originally. I do remember that at least the last 1000 in service, used as commuter club car with parlor seating and a refrigerator, was a trailer, but it is entirely possible that it had been built as a motor car and became a trialer during some overhaul program. Even then, it may have been unusual with controls at one end, since I did not visit both. I will say I don't remember any 1100 trailers, only 1000s, but I assumed the 1100s had them also.
It may be that the only trailers were the club cars, all 1000s.
I agree about the comment concerning the PRR branch lines. I did ride the daily Red Bank - Trenton local, via the "Freeholdl Secondary Track," which was usually a doodle-bug, but was an E6 (lucky me) PB-54 and P54 the day I rode it. It could be called a commuter train, for people working at the State House in Trenton, but not for people working in New York. I was an ROTC cadet at Fort Monmouth and rode from Little Silver, at the back entrance to Fort Monmouth, to Princeton Junction, to ride the Dinky mu to Princeton. Why did I make the trip? This was during the early part of the Korean War, summer 1951. I had gotton special permission from the ROTC Commander at MIT to go to ROTC summer camp one year early, between Sophomore and Junior years, so I could get a better summer job (at EMD-La Grange) the following summer. But when my MIT faculty advisor found out, what I was up to, he insisted that I take a summer test administered by Princeton U., that gave draft deferements to college students if passed. The obvious reason is that he saw a possibility of my flunking ROTC summer camp! But a more practical reason is that MIT wanted a broad data base on the nature of the test which was highly secret. Anyway, it was a good excuse to ride behind an E6 Atlantic. I had intended to go back from Princeton to New York and spend the weekend with my parents. My close friend at the camp, Fulton Clark Douglass, a real Georgiia cracker, was invited to my parents home, and I expected to meet him there. But he took it into head to drive his '49 Chevy to Princeton and drive me home. Of course, as a railfan, I would have really preferred MP54's, and possibly a front platform ride (I was in unifrom), but what could I do?
Despite being a year younger, I was a success as a cadet, and enjoyed the summer camp despite all the deliberate hardhips we endured. Clark was the bunk neighbor on one side, and the other side was Henry Kloss, also from MIT but of course a year ahead. He and Vilchurr started Acoustics Research, the with Lang KLH, and then Advent, all good loudspeaker companies. When an acoustical consulting job needed a specially-designed loudspeaker, Henry could always be relied upon.
kl;o
MidlandMikeLake Mahopac was a stop on both the branch and the Putnam Division.
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