So are the cab signals still in use on former PRR, now NS lines east of Pittsburg? Other than Amtrak, what PRR cab signals remain?
zugmann Deggesty Amtrak limits which freight engines can use their tracks. Turnabout is fair play, I guess.
Deggesty
Amtrak limits which freight engines can use their tracks. Turnabout is fair play, I guess.
And their enforcement of those limits is capricious at best. One of our routes has to traverse Amtrak between origin and destination. The destination end has no rail outlet to any other rail properties.
We have trains that get permitted to go to the destination end and then are restricted from coming back because one of the engines (that is in the same series of engines as the 'approved' engines) isn't on the approved list.
Nothing quite like bureauacracies!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
DeggestyJust think of the limitations placed on the use of Amtrak engines if there is no standardization of the systems used by the host roads.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
jeffhergert zugmann Paul_D_North_Jr As I recall, zugmann really appreciates the cab signals, esp. in foggy weather. Zugmann appreciate them in ALL weather. Esp. when you are running an approach, and teh block clears up and BAM! clear signal! No creeping around the corner looking for the stop signal. Grab a couple of notches and off you go... This is 2015. Stuff should be standard. The problem is, it never was standard. Even when mandated by the ICC, there was no standard system. Railroads could use whichever type they wanted leading to a hodge-podge of systems out there. I use two different types, depending on route on the western edge of my current territory. About 30 miles of four aspect, no speed control feature and about 144 miles of two aspect automatic train control. Even on the CNW with the ATC across Illinois and Iowa, they had Automatic Train Stop on lines in northeastern Illinois and southeasten Wisconsin. Another different animal. Jeff
zugmann Paul_D_North_Jr As I recall, zugmann really appreciates the cab signals, esp. in foggy weather. Zugmann appreciate them in ALL weather. Esp. when you are running an approach, and teh block clears up and BAM! clear signal! No creeping around the corner looking for the stop signal. Grab a couple of notches and off you go... This is 2015. Stuff should be standard.
Paul_D_North_Jr As I recall, zugmann really appreciates the cab signals, esp. in foggy weather.
Zugmann appreciate them in ALL weather. Esp. when you are running an approach, and teh block clears up and BAM! clear signal! No creeping around the corner looking for the stop signal. Grab a couple of notches and off you go...
This is 2015. Stuff should be standard.
The problem is, it never was standard. Even when mandated by the ICC, there was no standard system. Railroads could use whichever type they wanted leading to a hodge-podge of systems out there.
I use two different types, depending on route on the western edge of my current territory. About 30 miles of four aspect, no speed control feature and about 144 miles of two aspect automatic train control.
Even on the CNW with the ATC across Illinois and Iowa, they had Automatic Train Stop on lines in northeastern Illinois and southeasten Wisconsin. Another different animal.
Jeff
Just think of the limitations placed on the use of Amtrak engines if there is no standardization of the systems used by the host roads.
Johnny
jeffhergert The problem is, it never was standard.
And that was the problem. It SHOULD have been the standard.
Electroliner 1935 [snipped - PDN] . . . And a new question, PRR used a very heavy rail 152#. Does any remain in use?
http://www.txholdings.com/rail_chart.php
Not in any major main lines; almost all are now either 115 RE,132 RE, 136 RE, 140 RE, or 141 RE (AREMA). Undoubtedly there's some in yards, old branch lines (coal lines around Shamokin, PA), a few industries where I put it in . . . - for various specific technical reasons. It's kind of an orphan - almost all of the "Other Track Material" (joint bars obviously, but also tie plates, and everything in the turnouts) fit only it.
Walking in track laid with the stuff was weird - it was so tall, it felt like there were handrails on either side, or else it was proportioned more like narrow gauge, with respect to the rail height vs. the gauge distance.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_JrAs I recall, zugmann really appreciates the cab signals, esp. in foggy weather.
Back in the late fifties, PRR had Cab Signals all the way from Indianapolis to NYC. Are cab signals still operational west of Harrisburg? If so, how far? Now the former PRR is gone from Indianapolis East to Columbus and from Columbus to Stubenville is single track Ohio Central. No Cab signals there.
And a new question, PRR used a very heavy rail 152#. Does any remain in use?
Interesting that NS has kept at least some of the PRR's systems, as I understand it - but maybe only on those locomotives which operate over Amtrak's lines and hence need to be compatible with Amtrak's systems ?
As I recall, zugmann really appreciates the cab signals, esp. in foggy weather.
zugmann oltmannd Then Conrail was created and dropped the electrics w/o putting ATC on the diesels that operated in electrified territory. The standard on Conrail at the time was that a downward cab signal change only required acknowledgment. There was no penalty brake for failure. This set up Chase MD. It's just mind boggling, isn't it?
oltmannd Then Conrail was created and dropped the electrics w/o putting ATC on the diesels that operated in electrified territory. The standard on Conrail at the time was that a downward cab signal change only required acknowledgment. There was no penalty brake for failure. This set up Chase MD.
It's just mind boggling, isn't it?
What gets me is that there were guys in the Equipment Engr dept at Conrail who knew this stuff cold, but nobody asked them (that I was aware) and the culture wasn't condusive for unrequested opinions going up the food chain. Maybe that the top operating guy was ex-NYC had something to do with it? "We took all that ATC stuff off at the Central"
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
There are those who are happy about the mandate:
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/news03/air-brake-chief-new-rules-for-electronic-train-brakes-to-benefit-company-20150602
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
oltmanndThen Conrail was created and dropped the electrics w/o putting ATC on the diesels that operated in electrified territory. The standard on Conrail at the time was that a downward cab signal change only required acknowledgment. There was no penalty brake for failure. This set up Chase MD.
A not-too-shabby PTC news story:
http://www.npr.org/2015/06/03/411464396/most-commuter-rails-wont-meet-deadline-for-mandated-safety-systems
zugmann I was watching parts of a 1952 promotional film from the PRR discussing safety devices. One part was about cab signals. Amazing it is 2015 and we stil have dark territory, or lines with just waysides. Maybe if the railroads did a little more than just tinker with those ideas..
I was watching parts of a 1952 promotional film from the PRR discussing safety devices. One part was about cab signals. Amazing it is 2015 and we stil have dark territory, or lines with just waysides.
Maybe if the railroads did a little more than just tinker with those ideas..
The PRR had that ATC system in place on all their passenger power and all the electric power. At the time of Amtrak's creation, nearly all trains operating between NY and DC were covered. It required a brake application if the speed associated with the cab signal speed was exceeded.
Then Conrail was created and dropped the electrics w/o putting ATC on the diesels that operated in electrified territory. The standard on Conrail at the time was that a downward cab signal change only required acknowledgment. There was no penalty brake for failure. This set up Chase MD.
"+1" to Don's thought for the day above.
Only thing I'd add is that it's more likely to happen with safety features - such as PTC - than with primarily economic ones - maybe ECP, ACI is even a better example.
Another way of saying it: "If you don't take charge of a problem, it'll take charge of you !"
zugmann tree68 But there's still many lines that are more than 3 or 4 a day that run on paper. That is the problem.
tree68
But there's still many lines that are more than 3 or 4 a day that run on paper. That is the problem.
Paper? Paper? 30 years ago my carrier made a major push to go 'paperless'.
Those still holding stock in paper producers are still secure as the efforts to go 'paperless' have generated more paper than existed 50 years ago.
tree68ROI. Single track lines with three or four trains a day simply aren't conducive to the cost of the installation and especially the maintenance.
oltmannd My thought for the day: If you tinker with ECP and PTC for a couple or three decades without making any real forward progress, it shouldn't come as a surprise when someone comes along and shoves you into it....and you might not like the direction they shove.
My thought for the day:
If you tinker with ECP and PTC for a couple or three decades without making any real forward progress, it shouldn't come as a surprise when someone comes along and shoves you into it....and you might not like the direction they shove.
It should hardly be a surprise since in the history of American railroading, most of the major safety appliances have been adopted only after that "strong shove."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
zugmannI was watching parts of a 1952 promotional film from the PRR discussing safety devices. One part was about cab signals. Amazing it is 2015 and we stil have dark territory, or lines with just waysides.
ROI. Single track lines with three or four trains a day simply aren't conducive to the cost of the installation and especially the maintenance.
Not all days come with thoughts...
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