When I see a train that is sitting on a siding near my house waiting for another train to pass in the oppisite direction,sometimes the headend of the waiting train is as close to the switch to the mainline as safely possible and sometimes the headend is many yards away from the switch. In both cases, the length of the waiting train is far less than the length of the siding. What or who determines where on the siding the engineer of the waiting trains stops. Thank you.
The engineer decides where to stop. Many rule books suggest that at meeting points the trains should stay back about 400 ft from the signal.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Additionally, if there are grade crossings along the siding, the waiting train positions itself so as not to block the crossing. The safe way is to stay back from the end of the siding and the 400 foot requirement is to ensure the waiting train is far enough back to allow the oncoming train to stop if the switch is misaligned or the train splits the switch. But if you think about this if the train stops too far back, the waiting train cannot see if the switch is properly aligned. Again, this is the crew's decision.
The locomotive engineer ultimately decides where to stop, but he usually has visual aids to help.
However, the railroad field engineer and signal staff determine where the insulated joints go in signal territory or where the actual clearance point is in dark territory and in yards (also with the placement of derails). Frequently either the joint or top of tie is painted to witness that clearance point, insullated point or derail. (color dependant on rule book in effect....orange/yellow/white.....On Santa Fe, the rail and top of tie were painted orange on the field side of the rail with insulated joints also painted orange on the field side.)
Clearance point (measured) is railroad standard and not universal. Minimum track centers at a clearance point is at about 13 foot. In situations like derail placement, often they ask for 13-15 foot track centers PLUS the length of a rail car in case Gravity works/happens. (let the derailed car stop without fouling the adjoining track)
What you don't want to do is crowd the clearance point, derail or insulated joint and then have slack action push you beyond the line by releasing the brakes and the bunched-up train spreads out, etc.
Not healthy if you totally leave determination of clearance point up to one set of eyes on a train. The least common denominator can bite'cha.
An important element is the type of territory the case example is referencing. Is it dark, ABS, or CTC?
In dark or ABS territory, if the engineer stops too far from the switch, he likely will have to stop again at the switch. Under CTC, that won’t be an issue.
The electronics are much better now than what they were 40 years ago. In 1973, in El Monte, CA, a Southern Pacific eastbound crew in the siding jumped and ran after seeing a westbound at high speed enter the siding about 700-800 feet ahead! The subsequent impact sheared off the SD45 cab of the eastbound lead unit, with the westbound U25B ending up on its side. The westbound crew was killed. All that was caused by a maintainer inadvertently reversing two wires! Reported, that can’t happen now. So, where a train stops in a siding can have unintended consequences.
Then, too, sometimes an engineer miraculously fits a train into a siding that can’t hold the length of train he has! Then, railbuffs see the engineer get out and bow down to the train Gods … Seriously, but you said, tincansailor, the trains you see are shorter than the length of the siding ….
Anyway, it is hoped the above gives you something to mull over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
An then there are the words no Train Dispatcher ever wants to utter 'What do you mean you don't fit?'
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I may be wrong, but I have the impression that a signal controlling the end of a siding or pass track is no closer to the switch points than the fouling point--so, absent consideration of crossings that might be blocked, the engineer could stop at the signal (if he has no slack action that could move the engine if it bunched).
Last year, I mentioned on another thread a meet that I experienced while riding Amtrak #1--we met two eastbound freights; one had stopped, holding the main, and we were also to hold the main. However, we could not clear the fouling point because that eastbound had stopped too close to the end of the pass track, and our conductor had to continually ask that that freight be backed until we had cleared the fouling point. I do not know who was at the rear of the freight to make sure it went where it should not go. At least, there was enough room for both of us to fit, and the eastbound movement of autoracks moved on past both of us without stopping.
Johnny
BaltACD An then there are the words no Train Dispatcher ever wants to utter 'What do you mean you don't fit?'
And the words a train crew doesn't want to hear the dispatcher utter: "yeah, you should fit there"
Nothing like squeezing a train into a siding signal to signal. And on a grade. With junk power. When it's raining. And you have a kicker.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
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edblysard 6.8 Stopping Clear for Meeting or Passing A train that may be met or passed must stop at least 400 feet from the signal or clearance point of the facing point switch the other train will pass over, if length of train permits. Above per the GCOR, General Code of Operating Rules. Note the last sentence,
Ed, thanks for putting that up.
That 400 feet isn't a suggestion. There has been a big push on lately about complying with this rule. It's been a Rule of the Week twice within the last month. On the paper handout floating around they highlight everything but the last part about length permitting.
There has been some interpretation, including by a few officials, that it is OK to stop 400 feet short and then pull up close to the clearance point/signal when the train length isn't an issue. I don't agree with that. I read it that if you fit, they want you back 400 feet as a safety factor.
Jeff
jeffhergertI don't agree with that. I read it that if you fit, they want you back 400 feet as a safety factor. Jeff
Is the 400' line marked? If not - why not?
We don't have that rule in our books. But since there's no award for stopping closest to the signal without going over, I'd rather just hang back.
Anybody know why it's 400 ft. - instead of - say, 300 ft. or 500 ft. ? What's 'magic' about that particular distance ?
One thing I can think of is that 400 ft. is about equal to 10 rails 39 ft. long = 390 ft., but with CWR now there are no joints to see anyway. And anyhow, even if that's the basis of the measurement (unlikely), it still leaves my question unanswered.
- Paul North.
My carriers rule is 500 feet and the 500 foot 'limit' may be passed after stopping if needed to get the rear of the train in the clear. Trains may not foul the fouling point. The fouling point is normally marked, the 500 foot mark not so much.
Paul_D_North_Jr Anybody know why it's 400 ft. - instead of - say, 300 ft. or 500 ft. ? What's 'magic' about that particular distance ? One thing I can think of is that 400 ft. is about equal to 10 rails 39 ft. long = 390 ft., but with CWR now there are no joints to see anyway. And anyhow, even if that's the basis of the measurement (unlikely), it still leaves my question unanswered. - Paul North.
I looked through a few old (pre GCOR era) rule books. Some companies, or books used jointly (Consolidated or Uniform Code) specified a distance, some didn't. The distance when specified wasn't uniform between the rule books used. With 300, 400 or 500 feet being the specified distance.
I suspect the 'clearance buffer' rule is to guard against the engineer that overestimates his and his trains braking abilities to get to the end of the siding and actually stop. I suspect, more than once, a train was not able to get stopped prior to either passing the signal or fouling point of the siding with dire consequences.
By stating a point prior to the critical point as the 'legal' stopping point it creates, to some extent, a safety zone to insure that the train doesn't 'run out' of the siding - for whatever the reason.
If a train stops at the 500 foot mark and isn't in the clear - the speed at which the train will creep forward from the 500 foot mark to clear will normally permit the train to stop 'almost instantly' when it has cleared - before passing the signal or designated clearance point.
As an aside, it has always amazed me how slowly and under control, a engineer can move 12000 HP and 15000 tons.
Most of the rule books that had a distance required the train taking the siding to stop back, if length permitted. I think they didn't want trains to stop and then pull up. Most places, it would be safe to do so. Some places, maybe not so much. Plus, if you fit without needing to encroach the "buffer" zone, it is implied that they wanted you to stop and stay. None say anything about stopping clear and then pulling up.
In many of the books for trains holding the main track, they were to stop back the required distance. Nothing about pulling up or length permitting. I'm sure the reasoning for this is that the train on the main track will most likely leave after the arrival of one opposing train. (Of course, in the real world that doesn't always happen.) So it is of lesser concern whether or not the rear end of the train on the main clears the other switch.
Balt: an observation. Our local siding ETT publishes a certain length but several checks using GPS survey instrument or auto odometers shows it an actual 1075 ft longer foul point to foul point than ETT.. So 500 ft on each end = 1000 ft.
Now in cab signal territory, if you know your cut sections, you can hang back behind them when you get a stop signal. That way your cabs don't drop from approach to restricting. Then when you do have the signal, you don't need to run your train length at restricted speed before taking off.
Sometimes it helps expedite a move.
BaltACD I suspect the 'clearance buffer' rule is to guard against the engineer that overestimates his and his trains braking abilities to get to the end of the siding and actually stop. I suspect, more than once, a train was not able to get stopped prior to either passing the signal or fouling point of the siding with dire consequences. By stating a point prior to the critical point as the 'legal' stopping point it creates, to some extent, a safety zone to insure that the train doesn't 'run out' of the siding - for whatever the reason. If a train stops at the 500 foot mark and isn't in the clear - the speed at which the train will creep forward from the 500 foot mark to clear will normally permit the train to stop 'almost instantly' when it has cleared - before passing the signal or designated clearance point. As an aside, it has always amazed me how slowly and under control, a engineer can move 12000 HP and 15000 tons.
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