Some questions to ponder, for those who may have had experience with railroad attractive nuisances- Our lumberyard has a spur that leads off a BNSF main line. The tracks curve through about a quarter mile of alfalfa field, ending at the edge of our lot, where we have a concrete ramp on both sides to accomodate unloading cars with a forklift. These two concrete ramps are about 12 feet wide, and 40 feet from end to end. At the high side, there is about 5 feet of drop to grade level. Two sides of each ramp are surrounded by grassy dirt. One side is to the rail line. The fourth side is the ramp back down to a gravel lot. There is no fence around this spur or ramp. Is that a problem with kids and attractive nuisance problems? If I was a kid, it would look like a pretty fun place to ride my bike up and down the ramp. Skate boards are rare in this little town. Because our main lumberyard is fenced in, a kid would have to ride his bike a quarter mile, tresspassing on the railroad spur, or a quarter mile tresspassing through another landowner's alfalfa field, and then tresspassing through our back weed lot to get to the ramp. Consequently, any kid that ends up playing on our ramp has to go through some effort to do that. For the most part, we are located in Mayberry. Our little burg is a sleepy, bedroom community of about 4000 souls located 10 miles down the pike from the *big city* everybody seems to work in. When kids come into our store for the free popcorn or the bathroom, they are always respectful and polite. We've never seen bike tracks near the ramp, but in the winter we do see a lot of snowmobile and 4-wheeler tracks back in the alfalfa and weed fields. And, we did have one jackass in a 4-wheel drive truck stuck up to the door handles this spring doing cookies back in the swamp at the edge of Farmer Bob's alfalfa field. Does what I'm describing sound like we need a fence, no tresspassing signs, a minefield, or anything else to protect ouselves? My fear is that any fence would have to be a major structure, as having just a wire holding No Tresspassing signs would probably catch an adult on a 4-wheeler of snowmobile. A kid on a bike would naturally just go under the wire- I was a kid once. No tresspassing signs are meant to keep those other guys out. What do you think? Anybody have experience with anything similar?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Norris, ( Murphy S)
At the risk of sounding pessimistic...Kids at play are not sign readers when about their own 'missions', or at play. Tresspass is an 'adult' term, and meaningless until the miscreants are 'caught' and thoroughly dressed down...THEN, and only then, do those boundaries have any meaning and registration in the minds of kids... As to the 'adult' in the 4 wheel drive pick up...You cannot argue with an idiot. The only thing people like that understand is a warning shot across their bow, or a wrecker bill of several hundred $$$$$$.
You can put up warning signs ( remember in California they have something like English, and six or seven other languages for their voting ballots! )
The easiest thing to do is get your own four wheeler, and ride out to where the little thugletts are, and yell, threaten them, to scare them off.. A big, bad dog is also helpful.
samfp1943remember in California they have something like English, and six or seven other languages for their voting ballots!
jrbernierThis a liability issue that your company should discuss with their insurance provider. Jim
(and if you build a fence or gate anywhere near an active track, don't trust the @$#%^##! fence contractor to know what he's doing around an industry track.)
You have plainly visible no trespassing signs firmly fixed to the dock structure? If yes, probably will be good enough for your insurance carrier and the law.
If you do see kids being stupid, call Sheriff Andy or Deputy Barney and have them deal with the kids. Most likely a stern warning and a phone call to the parents will end any future problems w/o a citation.
(going that way in about 2 weeks en-route to GarnerIa, Peoria and Indy. Gotta see this thing from da ground on a Saturday morning.)
wanswheel Catholic kids may understand trespassing as the least of crimes, something very highly forgivable. “Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…”
OH! YEAH! Catholic School Students understand corporal punishment. [At least the ones graduated a few yearback, most definitely !] I had a teacher/dorm prefect who wore a leather belt around his garmet. In fact, he had three of them...Snap, Crackle, and Pop...You definitely did not want to be bending over a water fountain when he was on patrol ! The Nuns? They came repleat with their own weaponry.. Clappers, pointer sticks, rulers,etc.... OH! YEAH!
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".
Hmmm. How ready will they be to forgive a train that trespasses over their trespassing corpus?
Tom
Murphy Siding We've never seen bike tracks near the ramp, but in the winter we do see a lot of snowmobile and 4-wheeler tracks back in the alfalfa and weed fields. And, we did have one jackass in a 4-wheel drive truck stuck up to the door handles this spring doing cookies back in the swamp at the edge of Farmer Bob's alfalfa field.
Ah... Well it is not childern, it is Adults acting like kids. "No Trespassing" Signs should suffice, you will need them anyway if you will call the Sheriff to respond to your problems.
Is Farmer Bob's Land posted. You should talk with Farmer Bob, he probably does not need these issues either. This way tresspassers can be charged for trespassing on his land as well. Fences and gates are costly and may or may not be required. Your insurance company will know, but then may require things they would not have otherwise required of you.
To quote the tax comissioner here in North Dakota : "If you think that you may not like my answer, then don't ask the question."
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Sam, don't forget time on the "stone" for some indescretion. Sister Mary with her hicory pointer watching you. Oh my.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
A modest fence with a vicious guard dog behind it.
Murphy - when you get off work, take your killer cat and walk the perimeter. Word will get around and you won't be bothered any more.....
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Yep- there's nothing quite as intimidating as the sound of a cat trying to launch a hairball.
Murph, I think that the best responses you have gotten are to (A) contact your insurance carrier, and (B) beware what the insurance carrier might prescribe once "forced" to recognize the potential liability.
As opposed to fencing in the entire area, you might want to compare the cost to just install demountable hand rails along the trackside face of both ramps (preventing someone from taking a header onto the track area.
Demountable so you can pull them out when you need to unload a delivery.
The strategy being that you can demonstrate that you have taken "reasonable precaution" in the event someone ever takes a spill, and hires a lawyer. (even an employee might be at risk if you do nothing, opening up an avenue for them to recover beyond the limitations of workman's comp).
Norris,
If the ramp is not visible from a street and is relatively hard to access from public property, the odds are your okay with a few no trespassing signs.
The big issue with attractive nuisances is accessibility, if kids or other folks have to make a big trek to get there, or put forth an inordinate amount of effort it becomes trespassing.
Check your local ordinances for the requirement as to the trespassing signs location and spacing.
If your still worried, then as suggested, check with your insurance carrier, but as noted, you may not like what they require.
23 17 46 11
Man-made (as opposed to "naturally occurring") ? Yep.
Something a kid might be attracted to or interested in "using" for fun ? Yep - for the purposes noted in your question.
Are said kids likely to understand and respect a "No Trespassing" sign, or will the lure of that wonderful "play place" overcome any reluctance ? Yep (consider that tendency in a 7-year old as compared with a 14-year old).
Is there a forseeable and substantial risk of serious physical harm - "unreasonably hazardous" - from said location, if something goes wrong, i.e., kid takes a header from his bike or skateboard onto the track below, all of which is hard, and some is pointy, too ? Yep.
Note how the above 4 questions apply pretty much the same to a swimming pool, the classic example of an "attractive nuisance" (although that also poses a substantial risk of death from drowning or breaking a neck by diving and hitting the bottom of the pool as well).
Yes, ask the insurance company and/ or competent and experienced local legal counsel - and be prepared to pay to put up the fence and gate, though be careful to do it to avoide the problems that mudchicken mentioned.
Or, 'roll the dice', and hope that nothing bad ever happens there, and if it does, that your company will prevail in any resulting litigation for damages, etc.
- Paul North.
There are two cases, one substantially more ethical than the other. For the strictly business case, work with your insurer and compare the costs over time for both a lawsuit (worst case it) and increased premiums if simple signage isn't sufficient from their point of view...or even a fence...or both.
For the more ethical solution, consider the impact on everyone, not just a potential trespasser's severe injury or loss of life, but emotional on those attending immediately, the parents and siblings, etc.
But, would the fence be effective...any more than simply paying higher premiums either after such an unfortunate incursion or when your insurer learns that you really ought to improve your protection from incursion before the former event takes place? IOW, the two cases don't have to be mutually exclusive.
The relative remoteness of the "attractive nuisance" helps to decrease the attractiveness. Signage would help somewhat, (or might increase the curiosity factor and bring the area to the attention of kids. Fences would help too, but if the cost of fencing the entire property is prohibitive, then how about lessening the attractiveness by fencing those portions that are the focus of the attention.
The "play area" of the two platforms could be reduced with fencing just around them and the "Ramps" at one end (which I see as the most attractive portion) could be gated at both the top and the bottom which would discourage skateboarding and bicycling... if you can't go up and down the ramp, it would be harder to get up on the larger flat portion and there would be a lot less "fun" if you can't work the acceleration/deceleration of the ramps.
Take the "fun" out of it, or make it too difficult to find any fun in it.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Some good suggestions. Here's one more: along with "No Trespassing" signs, post "Beware Bad Dog" signs. You can also get a device that creates angry dog sounds that are triggered by movement. Worked for my uncle for about 40 years.
ramrod Some good suggestions. Here's one more: along with "No Trespassing" signs, post "Beware Bad Dog" signs. You can also get a device that creates angry dog sounds that are triggered by movement. Worked for my uncle for about 40 years.
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