Typically, (YES I am aware that variables come into play) how many miles does a main line freight travel between fueling? Mostly level ground, manifest freight, moderate weather...looking for a rule of thumb type figure not an iron clad guarantee.
You can figure 200 miles. Crews change every 200 miles, they may as well put some fuel in the tank. You never know whn a unit wil be left idling somewhere overnight getting 0 mpg.
I think I heard that they have biunkerage for about 500 miles, but what do I knwo, I am a LION, not a railroad engineer. Back in the '70s I was working in the news room at WNEW (NYC-as a 'copy boy) when across the wire comes a report that an LIRR commuter train ran out of fuel mid route between Montauk and Jamaica.
Contract specified that the fuel jobber would come and fill the engines at Montauk since the railroad had no fuel facilities of their own. But then I suppose that rules also say that the engineer should check his fuel status before departing the terminal.
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BroadwayLionBut then I suppose that rules also say that the engineer should check his fuel status before departing the terminal.
1. Assuming the gauges are working right and/or accurate.
2. Then you have to assume someone with a tad bit of authority didn't order a crew out with a low fuel level. Yeah, it happens.
I can't help CO, as most of our mainline trains get refuled at a mainline facility, even if they are only a few hundred gallons below F.
Now my other terminal, that had Gp38-2s with ~2000 gallon fuel tanks would see the fuel truck once a week. You could squeak 2 weeks out of those engines in yard/local service, but it was running on mostly fumes by the end of that period. Most yardmasters were smart enough to keep those engines in the yard when they got that low, where running out wasn't a huge crisis.
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The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
With engines SD40-2 or better, 1000 miles (adjusted for weather, grades, tonnage, etc.)
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BroadwayLionYou can figure 200 miles. Crews change every 200 miles, they may as well put some fuel in the tank. You never know whn a unit wil be left idling somewhere overnight getting 0 mpg.
The only time I have ever seen a consist fueled at a 'field' crew change was via a 10-wheel contract truck, on Amtrak at Memphis Central Station. And I had the very strong impression it was an exceptional or at least unusual thing, although perhaps I should have asked. I am sure it happens from time to time, as it's indeed an ideal opportunity and usually at least a convenient place -- if it is a spot where a crew van can go, there may likely be access for the fuel truck.
On the other hand, ISTR we had a discussion about fueling facilities. I do not remember whether a crew makes a 'special' stop there, or a crew change point is co-located: someone here like Dave Husman or Don Oltmann will know. But the tanks on modern road power will be sized to assure that a typical trip segment between regular fueling points will be easily accomplished, even on services like unit coal trains.
Someone (the odds-on candidate being Peter Clark) can quote the average SFC at each throttle position over typical profiles with a given drawbar load, and the tankage capacity, of modern road power. That will give you a somewhat more precise idea of expected capacity in the absence of delays or other trouble, which is what I think you are asking about.
Fueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station. Passengers were warned that no smoking was allowed at that stop. I had not noticed such an operation when the train passed through the station. Perhaps the usual operation is such that there almost no danger that a passenger would wander towards the engine?
Johnny
Deggesty Fueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station. Passengers were warned that no smoking was allowed at that stop. I had not noticed such an operation when the train passed through the station. Perhaps the usual operation is such that there almost no danger that a passenger would wander towards the engine?
Bismarck-Mandan has fuling facilities for trains headded in either direction (at each end of the terminal).
I know that AMTK refuels at Minot ND, cause I seen 'em do it. North Dakota does not permit smoking in buildings, nor is it permitted on the train platform.
DeggestyFueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station.
It was standard practice then because there were two complete trainsets involved, one south of the break, and one that terminated in Memphis going southbound (arriving from Chicago in the morning) and then sat there all day until departure back to Chicago after 10 pm. Unsurprisingly with no access to fuel facilities in New Orleans, and that long a wait, and with easy road access up to within a few feet of the locomotives, Central Station was an obvious place to perform refueling. I never saw how the southern-end train was refueled.
What I am hearing, is that bcause of expensive fuel spill clean-ups and tighter environmental regulation, new fuel depots are built to better prevent/contain spillage and are more costly. I would assume that fuel depots are getting fewer and farther apart. I have seen videos of rolling crew changes, and refueling was not an option.
BroadwayLionBismarck-Mandan has fuling facilities for trains headded in either direction (at each end of the terminal).
Lion, if it's a terminal wouldn't fuel requirements in one of the directions out of it be comparatively slight?
The current road locomotives are delivered with 5000 gallon tanks.
My carrier rates the range of a full tank as 900 miles with loaded bulk commodities. 1000 miles in normal Manifest freight service and 1100 miles in Intermodal service.
There is only one mainline fueling facility on the property. All other designated fueling facilities are at locomotive shops. All other fueling (which is most of it) is done tank truck (truck also supplies sand and toilet service) where ever it is needed in various terminals - both endpoint and line of road.
Current procedures are for crews to report when a locomotive's fuel reading is less than 1000 gallons.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Western roads have more run through fueling facilities because they have longer runs. On the UP they fuel at N Platte, Rawlins, N Little Rock, Denison, El Paso, Santa Theresa plus truck fueling at lots of other places.
Wizlish Deggesty Fueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station. It was standard practice then because there were two complete trainsets involved, one south of the break, and one that terminated in Memphis going southbound (arriving from Chicago in the morning) and then sat there all day until departure back to Chicago after 10 pm. Unsurprisingly with no access to fuel facilities in New Orleans, and that long a wait, and with easy road access up to within a few feet of the locomotives, Central Station was an obvious place to perform refueling. I never saw how the southern-end train was refueled.
Deggesty Fueling the City of New Orleans at Memphis may be standard practice; My wife and I went through Memphis during the time that the train had to go through the freight yard because a culvert beneath the pasenger track had collapsed, and the engine was fueled at the stop that was made for passengers to transfer to/from the bus(es) that ferried them to/from the station.
Here's a somewhat dated chart of fuel usage, by locomotive type:
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/fueluse.htm
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
DeggestyThe trip that I referred to was in 2008, after a culvert north of the station in Memphis had collapsed
The collapse I remember was south of the station, just past the end of the platform. There was a brick culvert that dated from pre-Civil War times, about 50 feet down, that failed and caused an enormous sinkhole to open up.
tree68 Here's a somewhat dated chart of fuel usage, by locomotive type: http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/fueluse.htm
You could do that, but the railroad plan where the fueling stops will be and fuel the units accordingly. You don't fuel a unit for where its been, you fuel it for where its going. If the next fuel stop is 800 miles away, even if the engine has 3/4 tank of fuel, you would still full fuel it so you know it will make the NEXT fuel station.
Fueling an engine at an ad hoc location is very expensive and time consuming. The fuel vendor has to be able to reach the engine, the vendor has to have enough fuel in the tanker to fuel the engine (you can drain a trailer type tank into one engine) and the vendor has to have the proper fittings to connect the hose to the locomotive. If the vendor has to fill 3 engines and only has one truck then they might have to make 2 or 3 trips back to the fuel terminal to reload the trucks, a VERY slow process.
blue streak 1With the loco usage rate now in place it would seem that any loco could track its fuel use. Fuel remaining transmitted to RR loco fuel desk. Immediate desk calculation could calculate when loco(s) needed fuel at available fuel location.
I would opine that they've already kind of done that, which is why they have fuel depots where they do. I think most folks who drive a fair amount probably have a fuel routine based on their regular usage.
Locomotives that don't run through trips usually have some form of "regular" usage, so deliveries (or trips to a fuel point) can be planned accordingly.
We get fuel once a week, delivered by a local contractor. We've found that to be sufficient to prevent us from running out of fuel. Trying to squeeze a second week out of a fill can be a problem. We also have gensets (for HEP) to keep fueled.
dehusmanYou don't fuel a unit for where its been, you fuel it for where its going. If the next fuel stop is 800 miles away, even if the engine has 3/4 tank of fuel, you would still full fuel it so you know it will make the NEXT fuel station.
Excellent point.
Note that for '2nd generation' and more current models, the "Specific Fuel Consumption" rate ranges between 16 and 21 Hp-Hrs./ Gal.
Next, look up the fuel tank size for the specific locomotive model under consideration - for example:
http://www.thedieselshop.us/INDEXBLDR.html
http://www.thedieselshop.us/E.html
http://www.thedieselshop.us/EMDMOD.HTML
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataEMDIndexRS.HTML
http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20SD40-2.HTML for the SD40-2 - 3200 gals (near the bottom of the page).
Apply (divide by) one of the fuel consumption rates from Al Krug's chart above, take a guess at the MPH speed, and there's your answer.
- Paul North.
tree68I would opine that they've already kind of done that, which is why they have fuel depots where they do. I think most folks who drive a fair amount probably have a fuel routine based on their regular usage.
I do not have any locomotives, but we do have a fleet of cars. Br. Louie comes out and fuels each car in the morning, so I usually depart the garage without ever checking the fuel gauge. If I take a car out too early it might not have been fueled yet, and out here that can be dangerous in the winter time, since none of our cars can make two round trips to Bismarck without refuling. Of course automobiles are easier to refule than locomotives, since there are many more gas stations than fueling depots for locomotives. Besides a stop at the gas station allows one to go potty, to buy a hot dog or an ice cream and then continue on the way. How can you do that on a locomotive. Sure you got a head in the nose, but is that really a comodious option?
When LION was in NAVY (him served on an aircraft carrier) the tankers chased us all around the Gulf refueling us every few days, weapons, food and sotres were also replentished at sea, but every 30 days or so the ship had to pull into port just to give the crews a break. Locomotives are no different. The crews need a break, and you may as well refuel the engine while you are stopped.
Hey this is better than the old steamy locomotives which had to be refueld and watered far more frequently. But the railroad, like the Navy (I suppose) wants to keep the bunkers as full as possible, for you never know when you may suddenly be deployed to a different ocean, and it will take many days before your retinue of supply ships can reach you. (Been there, done that, got the medals to show for it.)
BroadwayLionHey this is better than the old steamy locomotives which had to be refueld and watered far more frequently.
NYC built some of their locomotive tenders with huge fuel bunkers and relatively small water tanks - which were refilled "on the fly" at track pans.
Obviously this wasn't the case with that 0-6-0 yard goat...
I believe the Pennsy did so as well. Not sure if any other RRs used the practice.
Isn't there an FRA requirement for a"running inspection" of all freight trains at intervals of not more than every 1,000 miles ?
If so, wherever that inspection takes place on a regular basis would seem to be a good place to also refuel the locomotives.
Paul_D_North_Jr Isn't there an FRA requirement for a"running inspection" of all freight trains at intervals of not more than every 1,000 miles ? If so, wherever that inspection takes place on a regular basis would seem to be a good place to also refuel the locomotives. - Paul North.
One would think! However, my carrier has rarely been accused of thinking; and most of our train runs are less than 1000 miles.
23 17 46 11
Modern Marvels "Freight trains" episode.
BroadwayLionBesides a stop at the gas station allows one to go potty, to buy a hot dog or an ice cream and then continue on the way. How can you do that on a locomotive.
I have a number of times observed NS trains stopped well 'short' of the end of a siding (either on the main or side track) when making a meet on the ex-Southern line east of Memphis. The crews do this to walk a block to Wendy's and a Shell convenience store. I'm sure this happens many other places, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have easy acces for a fuel truck. (Although I'd draw the line at crews nipping into the Shakers in Waverly, Nebraska that was mentioned in another thread!)
BroadwayLion Locomotives are no different. The crews need a break, and you may as well refuel the engine while you are stopped.
In most cases trains are fueled at a crew change but not every crew change. Its not needed from a fuel standpoint and would cause too much delay. Crew changes can take a few minutes while fueling take a lot longer. A Chicago to Los Angeles train might change crews 10 times and only be fueled twice.
Convicted One Typically, (YES I am aware that variables come into play) how many miles does a main line freight travel between fueling? Mostly level ground, manifest freight, moderate weather...looking for a rule of thumb type figure not an iron clad guarantee.
Conrail's intermodal trains had a range of 1200 miles. Most would fuel at Elkhart and Harrisburg in one direction only, so would go 900 miles or so between fuelings.
The other answer is "every chance they get". If you pass a mainline fueling station, you get fuel. If a consist gets serviced, it gets fueled. So, could be as little as a few hundred miles.
Yet another answer is "too often". Many times, the fueling event is just topping off a mostly full tank.
Hunting for a functional, reliable, tank gauge to use in planning fueling has been a wild goose chase. Being able to implement a fuel useage algorithm to be used for planning fueling - also not happening.
The main goal of fueling planning is to steer away from high tax/cost locations to lower cost.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
edblysard Paul_D_North_Jr Isn't there an FRA requirement for a"running inspection" of all freight trains at intervals of not more than every 1,000 miles ? If so, wherever that inspection takes place on a regular basis would seem to be a good place to also refuel the locomotives. - Paul North. Yes, there is such a requirement, and UP’s Bailey Yard has fuel pads on several of their run through tracks to service through freight and unit trains, with a “pit crew” who can service and inspect a locomotive(s) in under an hour. Memory says their goal is 45 minutes per train….. Trains magazine had an article about Bailey Yard a few years ago, and there is a History Channel documentary on railroading that also features this operation.
Argentine mainline fuel pad in KC. Signalled in and out. Zoom in. Get gas. Zoom out.
https://flic.kr/p/pC5Xs3
UP mainline fueling at Bailey Yard is visible at far end of this shot
https://flic.kr/p/shRrmk
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