How much extra weight does a refrigeration unit add to a boxcar?

[Wizlish]

zugmann

And wouldn't making these cars self-propelled classify them as locomotives - with all assoicated tests and certifications?

Bingo.

From FRA compliance manual Section 8-229.5

"Periodically, FRA receives inquiries about equipment requirements for self-propelled vehicles used to haul revenue freight on the main line.
These vehicles include those built by Trackmobile Inc., Shuttle Wagon, Mitchell Equipment Corporation and Brandt RoadRailer®. Self-propelled vehicles are used in a variety of railroad functions. When self-propelled vehicles are used only in the performance of typical maintenance-of-way functions, or if they are used to move cars or equipment within the confines of repair facilities, they are to be considered specialized maintenance equipment and are exempt from many FRA regulations. When a self-propelled vehicle is used to move freight over the
railroad, outside the limits established for maintenance-of-way operations and repair facilities, it will be considered a locomotive and must comply with applicable regulations. Even though these vehicles do not resemble a standard locomotive, the purpose for which they are being used requires compliance with 49 CFR parts 223, 229, 231, and 232."

Let's look at a list of some of the items FRA has its inspectors look for in connection with this.  I will interpolate comments later (I've tried to post this no less than five times and the Forum software has dumped the post in mid-edit an equal number of times.)  I'm not going through the fun of editing in Word and pasting over to the Forum -- why can't IT bring back their own functionality of asking if we want to navigate away from a post if we're not done editing yet?

"1. The vehicle glazing material must comply with part 223."

"2. Each self-propelled vehicle shall be inspected each calendar day when used, and an inspection report and record shall be completed as described in section 229.21."

"3. Each self-propelled vehicle shall receive a periodic inspection as described in section 229.23, and all pertinent data is to be entered on an FRA Form F6180.49A, Locomotive Inspection and Repair Report, which shall be displayed under a transparent cover in a conspicuous place in the cab of the vehicle."

"4. The vehicle’s air brake equipment must be cleaned and tested as often as conditions require, but not less frequently than required in sections 229.25, 229.27, and 229.29."

"5. The main air reservoir must comply with section 229.31 regarding either hammer and hydrostatic testing or pre-drilling of the reservoir."

"6. The vehicle must meet general safety requirements of sections 229.41, 229.43, and 229.45."

"7. Fuel safety cut-off devices must follow Section 229.93."

"8. The vehicle must have a speed indicator if it is operated at a speed that exceeds 20 mph according to section 229.117."

"9. Interior cab noise must comply with section 229.121."

"10. Vehicle headlights must be fully functional; and, if operated at speeds in excess of 20 mph over one or more public highway-rail grade crossings, must comply with auxiliary light requirements according to section 229.125."

"11. The vehicle must be equipped with a horn according to section 229.129."

"12. If operated at speeds in excess of 30 mph while hauling cars, the vehicle must be equipped with working event recorder in compliance with section 229.135."

"13. Switching steps as defined in section 231.30."

"14. Four horizontal handholds shall be secured to the front and back ends of the vehicle, and shall be secured by bolts or other acceptable mechanical fastener (see Section 231.30)."

"15. The vehicle should have vertical handholds painted in contrasting colors and secured by bolts or other acceptable fasteners in compliance with section 231.30."

"16. The vehicle must be equipped with automatic couplers, to prevent the necessity of someone going between the vehicle and car for the purpose of coupling or uncoupling in compliance with section 231.30."

"17. If conditions warrant, a two-way end-of-train device must be used in compliance with sections 232.401–232.409."

"18. As with any train movement, the vehicle must be equipped with a brake system that permits the operator to apply and release the brakes on cars being hauled. The brake equipment must also be arranged so that proper air brake leakage tests can be conducted as applicable in compliance with sections 232.12 and 232.13. (MP&E 98-71.)"

[carnej1]

trackrat888

Cars actulay sorting themselves without a hump. Why does railroading have to be stuck in the 19th century.

 

Yeah, those 4300-4400 HP AC locomotives, 120 ton rotary gondolas, double stack well cars,multi level autoracks etc are so 1889...

[SALfan]

During WW2, the military put rail wheels on GMC 6x6 trucks and used them to switch freight cars.  Cars are much larger and heavier now, but back then cars had friction bearings and the engines in those trucks only had about 100 horsepower.  With the large and powerful earthmoving equipment available now, it couldn't be too difficult to find something suitable to push around a few cars.  Any scheme to use self-powered railcars would have a hard time leaping the hurdle of the relatively low cost and widely available alternatives.

[tree68]

Our Gradall has a knuckle coupler, hi-rail wheels, and an air compressor.  The hi-rail wheels are used mostly when keeping the ROW clear of brush (with the mother of all weed-whackers on the end of the boom...).  I believe the brakes on a RR car can be controlled from inside the cab, so it could be used to move cars some distance, if needed.

 

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

 

 

BaltACD

As if powering the car didn't add $50K to it's cost, now we add RC equipment for another $50K or more. And then all that equipment must be maintained in working order for more $$$$$$$$$$$.

 

 

 

And wouldn't making these cars self-propelled classify them as locomotives - with all assoicated tests and certifications?

 

  I've seen old photos of a locomotive being pulled by a couple dozen women factory workers, so it can't be that hard to move a train car-right?   I've seen an industry here in town that has a knuckle on a front end loader for moving cars around, so it can't be that hard to adapt some equipment-right?  And  I've seen commercials for John Deere riding lawn mowers that look like they could pull a train, the answer is simple-right?    So I'm thinking, add a knuckle and wheel like the MOW truck have, and problem solved.  You wouldn't need any self propelled cars or any locomotive engineer.  Heck, the guy doing the switching would only need bibbed overalls and a John Deere hat.  Around here that's not hard to find.

    Only hang up might be the brakes.  I assume you could go with those fancy electric ones, but I'm not sure how you'd keep from having a train car cut the extention cord.  Perhaps if someone told me how to remedy that, I could come up with a way to tell them they are wrong.

[trackrat888]

Cars actulay sorting themselves without a hump. Why does railroading have to be stuck in the 19th century.

[trackrat888]

GPS via handheld I-Phone just like quad copter just at ground level...Come to think of it we could run any train from anywhere in the world from say like India.

[chutton01]

Although my last post concerning ardunio controlled fmus via quadcopters was in jest, I thought to myself - self-power freight cars are a nice idea, but how can we make this concept less of a solution in search of a problem. Sadly, the UIC 'Self-propelled freight car" concept linked to before (I'll add an active link here) is overkill for the OP's new paradigm ("paradigm"? Yay - "Eighties - I'm living in the eighties!") of serving long, light traffic industrial leads and branches.

OK, equipping each freight car permanently with a discrete power unit (DPU) at the current state of technology adds lots of extra weight, complexity, maintenance costs and so it, so we have to discount that solution as transport companies hate hauling extra unused weight around unless they absolutely have to - this is why Roadrailers, which look great on paper, are not so successful in the real world (at least Triple Crown service survives to some extent).

So the DPU would need to be attached to a standard freight car, then detached and retrieved after the car is spotted at it's destination (visa-versa when getting the car from the consignee to a yard/local/etc). Fine, railroads have perfected methods of combining power units and rolling stock for over 150 years. Railroads even have small mobile power units, capable of handling 1-3 freight cars, up long industrial leads and branches - Trackmobiles aka Railcar Movers.

So for the final piece of the puzzle, lets get these Trackmobiles remote controlled - hey, no problem, that's already been done - except in too limited a fashion for our needs - a range of 760metres and a battery life of 8 hours no es bueno.  That needs to get up to 10,000 metres (10Km), and a unit run off a service vehicle's internal power to be worth it. That quadcopter relay I mentioned before might well work to extent the range, as well as giving good visual observation of any blockages or other issues.

Thinking further, why have an RCO sitting in a vehicle, and why should the power unit be limited to only a Trackmobile - why not have a central dispatch area controlling any sort of equipped power unit on the rails? Why not indeed, and this leads us to the topic of automated/remote control trains...which, of course, is NOT a hot button religious-war level topic by any stretch of the imagination...

The mention of capstans for moving freight cars (wagons) internally always reminds me of those funky small turntables found in British Good stations.  Alas, these fell out of favor in revenue service as wagons grew longer than 18ft and railway handling of LCL freight collapsed, just as it did in the United States.

[zugmann]

BaltACD

As if powering the car didn't add $50K to it's cost, now we add RC equipment for another $50K or more. And then all that equipment must be maintained in working order for more $$$$$$$$$$$.

 

And wouldn't making these cars self-propelled classify them as locomotives - with all assoicated tests and certifications?

[BaltACD]

chutton01

BaltACD

And how is it controlled for it's 3 mile trek?  Magic?

 

 

Arduinos!
And a guy with a beltpack RC unit somewhere...probably over there, or maybe down that way...

Here's the OP's chance - remote FMU contol via modified quadcopter!

 

 

As if powering the car didn't add $50K to it's cost, now we add RC equipment for another $50K or more.  And then all that equipment must be maintained in working order for more $$$$$$$$$$$.

[chutton01]

BaltACD

And how is it controlled for it's 3 mile trek?  Magic?

Arduinos!
And a guy with a beltpack RC unit somewhere...probably over there, or maybe down that way...

Here's the OP's chance - remote FMU contol via modified quadcopter!

[BaltACD]

trackrat888

The Idear here is to save whats left of light branch lines and have the Self propelled car roll at 15 MPH down to the junction which might be 3 miles away where it is picked up by the main line freight.

And how is it controlled for it's 3 mile trek?  Magic?

[trackrat888]

The Idear here is to save whats left of light branch lines and have the Self propelled car roll at 15 MPH down to the junction which might be 3 miles away where it is picked up by the main line freight.

[MikeInPlano]

chutton01

Let's not forget the front-end loaders, particularly those properly equiped to handle railcars. They can of course be used for normal front-end loader purposes (which can be numerous around large industrial concerns) when not moving railcars.

Perhaps the technology is not quite ready for remote-control distributed power on a rail car-by-rail car basis.

 

That's precisely what a large aggregate yard near me does.  They get 15-20 cars of aggregate every couple days, which they unload by pulling the cars over a pit and opening the bottom doors of the hoppers.  They pull several (4-5) cars at a time easily with a fairly large front-end loader.  The spot the empties on the next track, ready for BNSF to pick up when they drop off the next set of loads.  They can empty a car in about 3 minutes (it would be faster if the load could exit the car faster), and don't need any specialized car-mounted equipment.

But, an A for the ingenuity in the original poster's idea.  It does have the merit of getting extra duty out of an power source that's a uni-tasker.

[carnej1]

This thread covers a similiar concept:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/90871.aspx

There is also an interesting patent held by an engineer who has done work for GE on projects like the Hybrid GEVO locomotive:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20100186619

The patent covers energy storage systems for locomotives and railcars and includes descriptions of self propelled freight cars using hybrid diesel-electric-battery systems..

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

M636C

You drove a fork lift up ramps (at the non Coupler end) and its powered wheels dropped onto rollers that powered the rail wheels.

For instance ...

 

The rail car mover can be equipped with AAR-contoured coupler or buffers. It is available in three different categories: category WRG “N” for forklift trucks of 1.5 tons to 4 tons; category WRG “S” for forklift trucks of 2 tons to 7 tons; category WRG “SL” for forklift trucks of 2 tons to 9 tons. Designed for standard track gauge of 56.5-inches, narrow track gauge or broad track gauges are available upon request. The pull/pushing capacity ranges from 330 tons to 600 tons depending on model and forklift truck. Operating speed is 1.5 to 3.1 mph. Brake distance, with a load of 330 tons, is 39 inches.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/railproducts/product/Forklift-Truck-Propelled-Car-Mover--752

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

At the steel warehouse where I worked during the summer of 1972, I recall seeing the hub of a car puller just outside the building in which I worked.  The car puller was no longer functional and probably dated from sometime prior to WW2 when the plant was owned by the Pressed Steel Car Company.

[cefinkjr]

ndbprr

There is another option called a car puller. It is a Stationary geared motor with an attached loop of cable that has a short lead and Hook that allows an Operator to move cars.

Weren't car pullers at many coal mines nothing but a motorized capstan (like one on a ship or a tow boat) and a heavy rope with a large hook on the end?  All it would take to move a couple of hoppers with that would be attaching the hook to the car, looping the rope around the capstan a couple of times, and keeping a little tension on the rope beyond the capstan.  The advantage of this was that the rope wasn't attached to the capstan so it didn't have to be "unwound" for the next pull; just pick up the hook and walk it to the next car(s) to be moved.

Even though I was born and raised in coal-mining country, I never saw this done at a mine but I do remember seeing one man move 10,000 ton barges this way on the river.  I always assumed the same method was used at coal mines.

Were/are capstans or other car pullers used around large grain elevators?  It would sure be cheaper than tying up a switcher.

[chutton01]

Considering the OP again, it sort of sounds like those neat patented ideas you'd see featured in old Popular Mechanics articles - ideas that never quite panned out (Usually a cool headline, though - "Light-Weight Remote Control Power Units Make Every Freight Car It's Own Locomotive!").

Of course, real railroading has individual powered cars  - they are in passenger services, known as DMUs or EMUs (and some of the Metro/Subway services are automated/remote controlled)...

[poneykeg]

I knew a manager of a grain storage operation that would position hopper cars with his Oliver farm tractor and log chain. Monon  would leave what ever number needed and they filled the cars with a large grain auger.

[zugmann]

chutton01

Perhaps the technology is not quite ready for remote-control distributed power on a rail car-by-rail car basis.

 

Even if it was, the demand is not there.  Use a forklift.  A front end loader.  A cable.  A come-along.  A yard truck.  Heck, if your siding is on a grade, drop the car into place (for those unfamliiar, you release the brakes and let gravity do its thing.  Just hope the handbrake works, or you may inadvertently do a derailer performance evaluation).

[samfp1943]

tree68

You don't need a lot of horsepower to move a railcar - the horsepower is needed for speed (and incrementally for more cars).  Early switchers were only 600 HP - and could move lots of cars.

I've heard it said that you could move a car with a five horse Briggs and Stratton (and suitable energy transfer mechanism).  Just not very fast.

Even grades wouldn't really be a problem - the motorized mover just needs to be heavy enough to get traction.

It's not unusual for a car to be moved with nothing more than a long prybar, say for final positioning.  You better hope the handbrake is working...  

 

To what Larry (tree68) noted: [snipped] "...It's not unusual for a car to be moved with nothing more than a long prybar, say for final positioning.  You better hope the handbrake is working..."

When I was working in the Memphis area for a plastic container mfg. we used a' prybar' very effectively to move not only empty rail cars but to move loaded pellet cars, as well.  Our spur was approx 1/2 mile in length, and the local switch crew would drop the inbound cars close to where they were going to be needed.  Never exactly where they were going to be worked. Thus, our 'switch engine' was a prybar (see link for a photo of the device and its wooden handle)  It's was not unusual for a car to be moved with nothing more than a long prybar, for final positioning.  See linked item for description and photo:

@   http://www.rrtoolsnsolutions.com/miscProducts/RailroadCarMovers.asp

{Slip the working end under the wheel on the railhead, start pushing down, and moving the prybar ahead sliding it under the wheel on the railhead; the car moves ahead to the position it is needed to be in.}  A labor intensive job anytime of the year.  

OH, YEAH! The OP asked how much does a Reefer Unit add to the tare weight of a boxcar? When I was trucking, it was not only the weight of the reefer unit but that fuel tank (30,40,50gal- note the amount of on-board fuel effects the loaded weight of the load) required to run the unit.                     It used to be figured that a reefer load was 43 to 44K[ added weight of reefer unit was somewhere between 1500 or 2000K.]  (and that was a weight taken at the 'word' of the shipper ( but that is another story!).     The tare weight on each trailer should be determined by scaling it, before loading.   The railroad reefer cars use a similar reefer set-up to a OTR unit, but they look like they are probably much heavier than an OTR unit; as such, they would have a much larger fuel capacity(?)  All that would figure in the tare weight of the reefer car, and thus, how much it could load on board.

 

[chutton01]

Let's not forget the front-end loaders, particularly those properly equiped to handle railcars. They can of course be used for normal front-end loader purposes (which can be numerous around large industrial concerns) when not moving railcars.

Perhaps the technology is not quite ready for remote-control distributed power on a rail car-by-rail car basis.

[tree68]

You don't need a lot of horsepower to move a railcar - the horsepower is needed for speed (and incrementally for more cars).  Early switchers were only 600 HP - and could move lots of cars.

I've heard it said that you could move a car with a five horse Briggs and Stratton (and suitable energy transfer mechanism).  Just not very fast.

Even grades wouldn't really be a problem - the motorized mover just needs to be heavy enough to get traction.

It's not unusual for a car to be moved with nothing more than a long prybar, say for final positioning.  You better hope the handbrake is working...  

[mudchicken]

ndbprr

There is another option called a car puller. It is a Stationary geared motor with an attached loop of cable that has a short lead and Hook that allows an Operator to move cars.

 

Until you go around curves and get concerned about clearance & tripping hazzards. (have seen far too many of these improperly built and used)

[ndbprr]

There is another option called a car puller. It is a Stationary geared motor with an attached loop of cable that has a short lead and Hook that allows an Operator to move cars.

[Wizlish]

trackrat888

My idea was a to use something like the sidemounted reefer units as low power generating units that would power traction motors on a boxcar that would allow the car to move around the yard remote control without having a switcher. Instead of waiting for a interplant switch the customer could use the self-propelled units to move them around his yard to to the interchange point.

The real problem with this is that it requires an enormous level of investment, in fact several interrelated systems each with an enormous level of investment, to provide even a primitive level of benefit. 

I assume you have looked at what is required in putting a traction motor of any kind on a three-piece, foundation-braked freight truck.  Multiply the costs involved by the number of trucks out there... or even by the number of cars needed to assure that a given shipper willl have at least the number of equipped cars needed to switch what he has when he needs it.

Then there is the cost of the remote control boxes, and the training for people to use them responsibly. 

Now tell me who has the liability when a shipper is using a remote to control a car that gets away or goes on the ground, or runs over Raymond the hiding trespasser who wasn't expecting that boxcar to move by itself.  Lights, strobes, bells, horns, what other devices would you put on a potentially self-propelled boxcar?  Cameras like backup cameras that give you views all around the car?  All doable, but money doesn't grow on trees, and the equipment has limited lifetime, will be operating in stringent conditions, and will often be unattended to the point that components with any 'street value' will run a high risk of being removed and, ah, repurposed.

Were you planning on providing the small genset as onboard power for an actual refrigeration plant or climate-control system for the car, or using the little 'traction motors' for dynamic braking, energy harvesting, or enhanced wheelslide detection or whatever?  I don't think those add enough potential value for anyone to finance the idea, but you should think about anything that would add value to something as disproportionally expensive as this.

As noted, the better answer is a Trackmobile, or even a truck equipped with hy-rail wheels, which can be moved into position or even off the rails as needed.  You could have thousands of these... with decent hybrid powertrains... for the cost of the kind of system you are proposing.

 

[Note that there is another issue here, which I do not discuss because it doesn't bear directly on the thread topic.  What happens if one of the little generator/motors seizes up while the car is moving, or shorts and catches fire?  Where does the motor attach to the truck (bolster? equalizing bar a bit like a sway bar on an automobile between the sideframes?) and how does it connect to the wheelset?  Imagine the fun with a friction wheel and spring a la Valve Pilot drive...]

[M636C]

At a grain processing plant I saw an amazing device.

It was a four wheel trolley with a standard coupler on one end.

You drove a fork lift up ramps (at the non Coupler end) and its powered wheels dropped onto rollers that powered the rail wheels.

The operator folded up the forks, sat in the fork lift and used it as a (small) switcher.

The trolley was light enough to be placed on and off the track by the fork lift (when it wasn't in the trolley, of course) so it could face in either direction easily, and clear the track when locomotives arrived to deliver or remove the grain wagons.

I think they lost interest eventually, and only switched with road power. But I saw it working once with a 100 ton car.

M636C

[NorthWest]

Those extra motors will add a lot more maintenance costs and train resistance. Easier to get a trackmobile, especially since most industries don't need to move cars around at their sites.