Trains.com

CN Iowa Line

11355 views
76 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,918 posts
CN Iowa Line
Posted by MP173 on Sunday, March 22, 2015 9:53 PM

Illinois Central spun off its Chicago to Iowa line and then re-purchased the line in the mid 90s.  I understood the reason for the spin off, it just didnt seem to fit in with the North -South basic railroad (I am sure they had kept the Meridian E-W line tho).

Does anyone have insight into this line and how it fits into the CN system?  It just doesnt seem to generate much traffic with just one mainline movement in each direction.  Is there more than meets the eye with this line (ethanol, coal, grain etc)?  

I was in Western Illinois for a few days on business and pleasure trip in the Galena area and saw a couple of trains daily.  The pull out of the Mississippi River Valley to Scale Mounds is pretty significant.  Does anyone know the gradient %?  The wife and I stumbled on a former IC depot at Council Hills Station, Il which is now a combination bar, museum, convenience store which is step back in history.  I would recommend anyone in the area to stop in for a cold refreshment and a talk/tour with Diana, the proprietor....and if you enjoy fishing, the adjacent East Branch of Galena River is a good smallmouth river per Diana.  

Any info on the line is appreciated.  

Ed

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, March 22, 2015 10:45 PM

Once I was talking to the late Doug Hagestad at a Sandhouse meeting.  Doug had been VP Marketing for the ICG.  Our talk turned to the old Iowa Division and Doug said:  "I'll never understand why Hunter bought it back."  So, I guess someone is going to have to catch EHH in the right mood and ask him why he bought the line back.

The line does have traffic potential.  The area served by the CN's Iowa line produces a very large significant share of the beef and pork consumed in, and exported from, the US.  Virtually all this animal protein moves by truck.  The railroad could be competitive for much of this freight.  But getting someone interested at CN has proven problematic.

In addition to the meat, Iowa produces around 18% of the eggs in the US.  These eggs are also produced in areas close to the CN and could move by rail.  They all go by highway.

It all adds up to hundreds of truckloads per day.

I guess it's perceived as all too risky and unorthodox for anyone in CN's marketing department to bet their personal reputation and future on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,826 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, March 23, 2015 12:29 AM

I happened to talk with a guy who had done some consulting work for communities and industries wanting rail service after the IC bought it back.  He said service for some smaller industries had deteriorated.  That the CC&P was willing to work with them, the IC less so.  (Even so, a couple of places that can be served either by UP or CN, usually send more business over the CN.)

There is grain and ethanol in western Iowa.  There is a coal move, received from the BNSF at Sioux City, going to Williams IA.  From there it's trucked to the municipal power plant at Ames, IA.  (Used to be served direct by UP, but the plant can't take an entire train at once.  It had to be yarded and then brought in 13 car blocks to the plant.)

The Sioux City line is busier than the Omaha line.  Because they have to use the UP bridge, and the associated fees, they prefer to do most of their BNSF interchange at SC.  The Omaha line normally only sees a local train.  I see it fairly often.  A big train is more than 20 cars on it.

Those packing plants may not be shipping fresh meat, although some frozen meat might be going by rail, they do ship by-products.

Jeff         

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: Brooklyn Center, MN.
  • 702 posts
Posted by Los Angeles Rams Guy on Monday, March 23, 2015 6:37 AM

Have to echo Greyhound's sentiments here as well as there is a TON of traffic potential on the CN's Iowa Division mainline.  The secondary mainline from Manchester down to Cedar Rapids has seen traffic grow over the years which is good to see and, remembering how ICG let the Iowa Division mainline deteriorate in the early 80's before Jack Haley's purchase in 1985, it's definitely good to see that CN has brought the mainline and associated lines back up to standard.  Now, if they would JUST go after some more traffic.....

"Beating 'SC is not a matter of life or death. It's more important than that." Former UCLA Head Football Coach Red Sanders
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, March 23, 2015 10:55 PM

greyhounds
It all adds up to hundreds of truckloads per day.

Judging by the typical consists, ethanol, oil and grain trains are the low-hanging fruit.  Marketing and loose-car operations are apparently too taxing.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    December 2009
  • 1,751 posts
Posted by dakotafred on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:03 AM

It does seem a relaxed way of doing business in this hard-charging day. In other businesses, administration seems to raise the performance bar every year, and if lower management can't rise to the challenge, the administration will find somone who can.

Sounds as if people on the IC think they are semi-retired, odd behavior in the wake of Hunter Harrison.

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 8:00 AM

schlimm
Judging by the typical consists, ethanol, oil and grain trains are the low-hanging fruit.  Marketing and loose-car operations are apparently too taxing.

It's more than that.  The railroads tend to be less than adequate at market development.  If someone shows up offering unit trains or even a new oil field a railroad can generally put together a service/ price/ equipment package for the opportunity.  But aggregating several cutomers into a market opportunity requires an expertise that is gone from railroad marketing.

It's not so much that they're avoiding work, it's that they don't know how to do the work.

Second, railroads tend to be too risk adverse when it comes to marketing.  A failure can doom a career.  Well, that is not the way to do market development.  You don't want a lot of failures, but if you have no failures you're not being agressive enough.

These are part of a corporate culture that needs to change.  But it's hard to change a corporate culture.  So we are where we are.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,826 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 8:56 AM

It's the class one mentality, that might be starting to filter into regionals, too.  Possibly because no matter how good of service the regional/short line offers, once it's interchanged to another railroad, it's beyond that small railroads control.   

They seem to pass up opportunities from smaller volume shippers, even where they already have yard engines or local freights already established.  I think they even try at times to discourage (drive away) that type of business they already have.

Loose car/small block traffic is going to require more infrastructure, more equipment (locomotives) and more employees.  I think all they see is the cost involved, not any money that they could make.  I've always felt they want the cream off the top, but they don't want to milk the cow to get it. 

Jeff

PS, the rumor resurfaced recently (told to us at a union meeting, the info coming from a regular meeting between union and service unit level managment) that the UP may be trying to purchase the CN/IC from Council Bluffs to Arion, IA again.  It comes up every so often.  Usually it's been said the CN wasn't interested, but that might be changing.  I've heard of plans of consolidating the old IC and CNW yards in CB (they are side by side) and turning it into an arrival and departure yard for manifests to/from the north and east. 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:21 AM

greyhounds

 

 
schlimm
Judging by the typical consists, ethanol, oil and grain trains are the low-hanging fruit.  Marketing and loose-car operations are apparently too taxing.

 

It's more than that.  The railroads tend to be less than adequate at market development.  If someone shows up offering unit trains or even a new oil field a railroad can generally put together a service/ price/ equipment package for the opportunity.  But aggregating several cutomers into a market opportunity requires an expertise that is gone from railroad marketing.

It's not so much that they're avoiding work, it's that they don't know how to do the work.

Second, railroads tend to be too risk adverse when it comes to marketing.  A failure can doom a career.  Well, that is not the way to do market development.  You don't want a lot of failures, but if you have no failures you're not being agressive enough.

These are part of a corporate culture that needs to change.  But it's hard to change a corporate culture.  So we are where we are.

 

So true.   Changing corporate or institutional culture  [really hate that term] is very hard.  Often easier in some sectors to start from scratch.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:24 AM

jeffhergert
the rumor resurfaced recently (told to us at a union meeting, the info coming from a regular meeting between union and service unit level managment) that the UP may be trying to purchase the CN/IC from Council Bluffs to Arion, IA again.  It comes up every so often.  Usually it's been said the CN wasn't interested, but that might be changing.  I've heard of plans of consolidating the old IC and CNW yards in CB (they are side by side) and turning it into an arrival and departure yard for manifests to/from the north and east. 

Would that change the routing of some UP trains to the old, single-track (but in some stretches, in good shape) IC line to Chicago?

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Posted by Victrola1 on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:34 AM

The old IC line from Waterloo, IA to Albert Lea, MN has been improved. 

This line's days as a Twin Cities to Chicago partnership with the M&StL are long past. What are the traffic prospects between Albert Lea and Waterloo? 

 

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:15 PM

Victrola1
What are the traffic prospects between Albert Lea and Waterloo? 

When you talk about Iowa and nearby locations you're primarily talking about food and other ag products (ethanol).  Additionally, you've got farm supplies such as fertilizer and chemicals.  There is some non agricultural opportunity.  But primarily it's food and ag related freight.

The big Kahuna for CN's Albert Lea line is Hormel in Austin, MN.  The processing capacity at Austin is 19,000 hogs per day.  That's a lot of Spam, bacon and pork chops.   Austin is 23 miles east of Albert Lea which is an easy intermodal dray.

At Waverly, IA (on the line) Nestles has a production facility for dry, condensed, and evaporated dairy products.   I don't know the output of the facility. There are other opportunities on the line, but I'd have to reasearch them.

On  the Cedar Rapids line the city of Cedar Rapids itself is literally an untaped gold mine for intermodal freight.  Quaker has what it bills as the world's largest cereal factory in Cedar Rapids.  The volume shipped from this one facility is around 100 truckloads per workday.  (and it all goes out by truck)  In addition to Quaker, General Mills has a large cereal production facility in Cedar Rapids.  This General Mills facility is being expanded.  Although breakfast cereal consumption is declining, there is still a lot of opportunity in Cedar Rapids cereal freight.

The business is there.  What's needed is the determination and imagination to get it on the railroad at a profit.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,826 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:32 PM

schlimm
 
jeffhergert
the rumor resurfaced recently (told to us at a union meeting, the info coming from a regular meeting between union and service unit level managment) that the UP may be trying to purchase the CN/IC from Council Bluffs to Arion, IA again.  It comes up every so often.  Usually it's been said the CN wasn't interested, but that might be changing.  I've heard of plans of consolidating the old IC and CNW yards in CB (they are side by side) and turning it into an arrival and departure yard for manifests to/from the north and east. 

 

Would that change the routing of some UP trains to the old, single-track (but in some stretches, in good shape) IC line to Chicago?

 

I doubt it.  It would give UP a second track into Council Bluffs from the east.  Normally there are only about 3 manifests and one local that go from Missouri Valley to CB.  Bucking the eastward flow can cause those trains to sit for hours at Mo Valley waiting for a slot to go down.  If they had a second route into CB, I could also see some westbounds going the "long way" to Fremont when there is heavy eastbound intermodal traffic coming the "short way" via Blair. 

Jeff

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: Brooklyn Center, MN.
  • 702 posts
Posted by Los Angeles Rams Guy on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:40 AM

jeffhergert

 

PS, the rumor resurfaced recently (told to us at a union meeting, the info coming from a regular meeting between union and service unit level managment) that the UP may be trying to purchase the CN/IC from Council Bluffs to Arion, IA again.  It comes up every so often.  Usually it's been said the CN wasn't interested, but that might be changing.  I've heard of plans of consolidating the old IC and CNW yards in CB (they are side by side) and turning it into an arrival and departure yard for manifests to/from the north and east. 

 

 

That would indeed be interesting if that were to happen.  I've long advocated that the CN's Iowa Division mainline and the UP's "Overland Route" mainline should have been operated as a paired track arrangement DECADES ago.  On the other hand, I would hate to see CN sell this to UP and leave the Council Bluffs/Omaha market.  Big mistake there, IMHO. 

"Beating 'SC is not a matter of life or death. It's more important than that." Former UCLA Head Football Coach Red Sanders
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: Brooklyn Center, MN.
  • 702 posts
Posted by Los Angeles Rams Guy on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:42 AM

greyhounds
 
Victrola1
What are the traffic prospects between Albert Lea and Waterloo? 

 

When you talk about Iowa and nearby locations you're primarily talking about food and other ag products (ethanol).  Additionally, you've got farm supplies such as fertilizer and chemicals.  There is some non agricultural opportunity.  But primarily it's food and ag related freight.

The big Kahuna for CN's Albert Lea line is Hormel in Austin, MN.  The processing capacity at Austin is 19,000 hogs per day.  That's a lot of Spam, bacon and pork chops.   Austin is 23 miles east of Albert Lea which is an easy intermodal dray.

At Waverly, IA (on the line) Nestles has a production facility for dry, condensed, and evaporated dairy products.   I don't know the output of the facility. There are other opportunities on the line, but I'd have to reasearch them.

On  the Cedar Rapids line the city of Cedar Rapids itself is literally an untaped gold mine for intermodal freight.  Quaker has what it bills as the world's largest cereal factory in Cedar Rapids.  The volume shipped from this one facility is around 100 truckloads per workday.  (and it all goes out by truck)  In addition to Quaker, General Mills has a large cereal production facility in Cedar Rapids.  This General Mills facility is being expanded.  Although breakfast cereal consumption is declining, there is still a lot of opportunity in Cedar Rapids cereal freight.

The business is there.  What's needed is the determination and imagination to get it on the railroad at a profit.

 

 

I can remember when both IC/ICG and then later CC operated intermodal out of Cedar Rapids.  I don't recall what the actual volume was but there is definitely potential there - if CN knew how to go after it. 

"Beating 'SC is not a matter of life or death. It's more important than that." Former UCLA Head Football Coach Red Sanders
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Posted by Victrola1 on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 11:11 AM

The Iowa Northern is a short line. The map shows their territory. Both the Iowa Northern and CN serve Cedar Rapids and Waterloo. 

http://www.iowanorthern.com/communities/

What difference is there in the Iowa Northern visa vi CN in marketing and obtaining online business? 

 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,918 posts
Posted by MP173 on Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:12 AM

I am not sure how attractive intermodal out of Cedar Rapids would be.  If the freight is eastbound, then CN would rail it 300 miles to Chicago where it would have to do the Windy City Shuffle.  Ditto southbound, although CN could possibly rail it to Memphis and beyond.

How about westbound?  Rail it to Omaha and then interline to UP or BNSF?  I dont see that working out.  Do either BNSF or UP have intermodal service in Omaha?

Meanwhile in Cedar Rapids you have CRST and Heartland Express, both of which are outstanding truckload carriers.  

Thanks for all the replies to the original question.  I look at this line on the map and it makes no sense for CN's overall picture.  There is no density.  Yes, there are some ethanol trains and it was mentioned there is a coal movement.   

I think ultimately the value of the line is as a agricultural line (already doing that) and as a secondary routing for UP and BNSF.  If BNSF gets too busy with their oil business they could run a couple of trains via the CN from Galena Jct to Chicago.  

A couple of years ago CN traded it's Elsdon Sub in Chicago to CSX for a needed piece of CSX track in Memphis.  I can see CN doing something to that effect to gain operating leverage...but where would that be?

Speaking of lines on the map...how significant is St. Louis to CN these days?  Isnt that a similar situation to the Iowa Line?

Ed

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: St. Paul, Minnesota
  • 2,116 posts
Posted by Boyd on Friday, March 27, 2015 12:09 AM

I wonder if sometimes a large RR buys a regional rail line just so a competing large RR doesn't buy it? Routing of trains through or around a town, city or state to me could be like a chess game. How many trains get purposely routed in a way to avoid going through states with higher taxes on their right of way like my home state of Minnesota?

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 24,934 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 27, 2015 6:47 AM

Boyd

I wonder if sometimes a large RR buys a regional rail line just so a competing large RR doesn't buy it? Routing of trains through or around a town, city or state to me could be like a chess game. How many trains get purposely routed in a way to avoid going through states with higher taxes on their right of way like my home state of Minnesota?

Selling or leasing lines to Regionals or Short Lines is a exercise in reducing costs.  The Regional or Short Line are not bound by the Union agreements of the Class 1 carriers and thereby are able to reduce the costs of operating and maintaining the lines.  The Class 1 will either get the benefit of the road haul of the customers on those lines or the ability to operate their own trains over the trackage for a fee that is less than the cost of the Class 1 maintaining the trackage.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Southeast Michigan
  • 2,983 posts
Posted by Norm48327 on Friday, March 27, 2015 7:33 AM

What Balt said, and there's part of a Class I subdivision in my neck of the woods that may be leased to a short line if the two entities can come to terms.

Norm


  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, March 28, 2015 2:41 AM

MP173
I am not sure how attractive intermodal out of Cedar Rapids would be.  If the freight is eastbound, then CN would rail it 300 miles to Chicago where it would have to do the Windy City Shuffle.  Ditto southbound, although CN could possibly rail it to Memphis and beyond. How about westbound?  Rail it to Omaha and then interline to UP or BNSF?  I dont see that working out.  Do either BNSF or UP have intermodal service in Omaha? Meanwhile in Cedar Rapids you have CRST and Heartland Express, both of which are outstanding truckload carriers.  

Well, you cannot just give up and let the truckers haul the loads.  Especially if you've got a greatly underutilized railroad, as CN does in Iowa.

You've got to overcome the "Class 1 Mindset" that will quickly concede Cedar Rapids to the truckers.  Ed uses the "Class 1 Mindset" in his dismissal of the intermodal opportunities at Cedar Rapids (and nearby Waterloo).  No shame in that.  That's just what the CN is doing.

300 miles Cedar Rapids to Chicago?  Not worth the bother.  That's the current culture on the Class 1's.  That's how they think.  

I was pondering how to write a decent reply when my May 2015 issue of Trains arrived via email.  In the emag is another excellent article by Fred Frailey (citing the aforementioned "Class 1 Mindset").  It's about the success of intermodal on the Indiana Rail Road.  The Indiana is being successful at 153 miles.  Now, if the IRR can successfuly compete with trucks using IM service between Chicago and Indianapolis, just why can't the CN offer a truck competitive service between Cedar Rapids/Waterloo and Chicago connections?

In fact, it may not be possible.  But it's something that certainly deserves good analysis and study.  It's not something that should be quickly dismissed because of a mind set/corporate culture.  (Frailey cites the "Class 1 Mindset" as the main obstacle to market development such as this.)

At this point it is important to stress that neither the exsisting IRR operation nor the CN Cedar Rapids/Waterloo conceptual operation competes with the truckers for freight between the trains' terminals. Drayage costs at origin and destination (not present for the truckers) will destroy any hope of covering IM costs at these distances.  But we're not talking about freight moving between the train terminal cities.  We're talking trains that extend the existing rail IM network by connecting more distant places in that network to places such as Cedar Rapids.  There's a lot of freight to be had.  If you've got a very empty railroad, as CN does, there is a need to take a very long hard look at adding revenue to the rail line.  If that is outside your culture/business model/whatever, so be it.   

Here's a notional concept of a Cedar Rapids-Chicago operation.  

1) The Chicago end point could be the CSX IM terminal at Bedford Park.  That will give access to all eastern population centers (the destinations) from Montreal to Atlanta to Miami without cross town drayage expense, or rail transfer expense, in Chicago. (As one example, it's 931 highway miles from Cedar Rapids to the Walmart grocery distribution center in Tobyhanna, PA.  If you can't make your IM service truck competitive at 931 miles you need to find another line of work.  There are many other grocery DCs serving the large population in the destination area.)

2)  Establish dedicated train service between Cedar Rapids and Chicago on a schedule.  Run it reliably as scheduled.  (35 MPH terminal to terminal would require 7 Hours and 45 minutes run time for the 271 rail miles.)  You could stretch it a bit to allow break times (i.e. the toilet) and a half hour stopped for a lunch break.   But whatever schedule you establish, make it a reliable one.

3) It would be ever so nice if the unions would cooperate in this market development by allowing a one person crew on such a train.  A train length limit could be adopted for one person operation.  For example, if the train was over 45 containers a 2nd crew member would be required.  We could see if a one person crew worked out.  I'm convinced it will.  One person can handle a relatively short train on a underutilized rail line.

4) Get under the truckers' prices by a good amount.  The railroads' marginal cost will be lower than the truckers' marginal costs.  Use that to develop the business.

I'm convinced this would work.  It at least deserves a good analysis and a market test.  It should not be dismissed out of hand due to a "Class 1 Mindset".  

And yes, the UP and BNSF both have intermodal terminals at Omaha or Council Bluffs.

 

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: South Dakota
  • 1,592 posts
Posted by Dakguy201 on Saturday, March 28, 2015 3:34 AM

If you go further west along the same rail line, even more product is being handled by truck.  According to the USDA, Iowa's red meat production for 2013 was 6,571 million tons (2nd place among the states).  Nebraska was first at 7,353 mil tons.  A substantial portion of that comes out of Tyson's plant near Sioux City.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Saturday, March 28, 2015 7:26 AM

greyhounds
At this point it is important to stress that neither the exsisting IRR operation nor the CN Cedar Rapids/Waterloo conceptual operation competes with the truckers for freight between the trains terminals. Drayage costs at origin and destination (not present for the truckers) will destroy any hope of covering IM costs at these distances.  But we're not talking about freight moving between the train terminal cities.  We're talking trains that extend the existing rail IM network by connecting more distant places in that network to places such as Cedar Rapids.  There's a lot of freight to be had.  If you've got a very empty railroad, as CN does, there is a need to take a very long hard look at adding revenue to the rail line.  If that is outside your culture/business model/whatever, so be it.   

Ken: Very informative post.  One point I would like to see clarified, however.  Is the Indiana RR service strictly IM terminal to terminal (CHI and IND)?   If so, why could not IC/CN intermodal compete with loads of meat, for example, from a meat packing center, to one of the several distribution centers in Chicago?    

nb: I have never done a 24-hour count, but it seems to me there is more than one train each way on the IC line.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,786 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, March 28, 2015 10:04 AM

Victrola1

The Iowa Northern is a short line. The map shows their territory. Both the Iowa Northern and CN serve Cedar Rapids and Waterloo. 

http://www.iowanorthern.com/communities/

What difference is there in the Iowa Northern visa vi CN in marketing and obtaining online business? 

 

 

The folks in the Sabin's organization are good railroaders, pro-active, driven and have a much flatter internal corporate to deal with when they innovate.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,918 posts
Posted by MP173 on Saturday, March 28, 2015 6:42 PM

Ken:

I always appreciate your comments on the transportation industy and particularly your passion for handling meat out of Iowa.  So, I will bite on this and let me ask you a few questions (because I think this would work, but probably not on the CN):

1. Cost for establishing a terminal in Cedar Rapids?

2.  Average drayage costs to Cedar Rapids terminal?  I have lost touch with the trucking costs, but it seems as if a $200 drayage in the CR area (city limits) would cover it.

3.  I would assume a thru rate would be necessary from CR to CSX east coast facilities.  What is the average container rate for 931 miles?  I have no idea but would assume a cost of $1 per mile, perhaps?  How would that revenue be split between CN and CSX?  If it is on the per mileage basis then CN would garner $271.  A trainload of 45 containers to CSX would yield revenue of $12195.  

4.  How is that $12195 going to stack up vs the fixed costs of a locomotive (how much is a locomotive lease per day?  I have no idea).  

5.  Per diem charge for TTX tables?

6.  Labor cost for one crew member?  What about labor costs for CR terminal?

7.  Backhaul from Chicago to CR?  What can be expected for container freight to the middle of Iowa?  Perhaps work out a deal with some TL carriers in Chicago (wait, CRST and Heartland are looking for the same freight).

I agree with quite a bit of your points, primarily the IC line needs some traffic to support the heavy fixed costs, but I am not sure that 45 containers a day (one way) is going to cover costs and add a contribution so that I can continue to recieve my healthy CN dividend check in March, June, September and December (which has been growing greatly the past 10 years).

I think Indiana Railroad is perfect for what is happening there.  I have not read the article as digital delivery is quicker than the USPS, but as I understand it CN is bringing Asian containers from Prince Rupert to Chicago and then a train drops off the containers at Effingham and then interchanges at Newton daily.  All of this is part of already established routes and movements.  It would be great to know what Indiana Railroad gets for hauling a container from Newton to Indy.

I could see a shortline handling your movements to Chicago, but not sure if CN will bite.

Intermodal needs to be high volume or unusual circumstances to make coin.  While I was writing this, NS ran 3 intermodals thru Chesterton with volumes of 158 containers, about 100 containers, and 233 containers for nearly 500 containers in 25 minutes.  That is alot of volume.

 

Ed

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, March 29, 2015 1:09 AM

Does this work?

Average Eastbound Eastbound             Train Miles (Round Trip) 542        
Eastbound Revenue Only                      
Loads @  $1.00 Revenue                       
  Per Container Per Total Revenue Per Train Mile
  Mile Train Mile Westbound Loads @ $0.75 Per Container Mile
      0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20
30 $8,130.00 $15.00 $15.00 $15.75 $16.50 $17.25 $18.00 $18.75 $19.50 $20.25 $21.00 $21.75 $22.50
32 $8,672.00 $16.00 $16.00 $16.75 $17.50 $18.25 $19.00 $19.75 $20.50 $21.25 $22.00 $22.75 $23.50
34 $9,214.00 $17.00 $17.00 $17.75 $18.50 $19.25 $20.00 $20.75 $21.50 $22.25 $23.00 $23.75 $24.50
36 $9,756.00 $18.00 $18.00 $18.75 $19.50 $20.25 $21.00 $21.75 $22.50 $23.25 $24.00 $24.75 $25.50
38 $10,298.00 $19.00 $19.00 $19.75 $20.50 $21.25 $22.00 $22.75 $23.50 $24.25 $25.00 $25.75 $26.50
40 $10,840.00 $20.00 $20.00 $20.75 $21.50 $22.25 $23.00 $23.75 $24.50 $25.25 $26.00 $26.75 $27.50
42 $11,382.00 $21.00 $21.00 $21.75 $22.50 $23.25 $24.00 $24.75 $25.50 $26.25 $27.00 $27.75 $28.50
44 $11,924.00 $22.00 $22.00 $22.75 $23.50 $24.25 $25.00 $25.75 $26.50 $27.25 $28.00 $28.75 $29.50
               

 Well, it didn't work very well.  I'll be back after sleep.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,918 posts
Posted by MP173 on Sunday, March 29, 2015 10:48 AM

This will be fun.

 

Ed

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, March 29, 2015 8:11 PM

MP173
This will be fun.

I don't know how much "fun" this will be.  It looks like the work I did in days gone by - for pay.

I was trying to show the gross revenue per train mile at various levels of eastbound and westbound loadings.  It assumes $1.00/container mile eastbound and $0.75/container mile westbound.

This whole thing will be, at best, one big SWAG.  Determining the costs of specific rail movements remains very imprecise.  Since we do not have access to real data, we're going to have to make many assumptions that may or may not be valid.

Such as:  the cost of an IM terminal at Cedar Rapids.  In the real world I could get a projection.  Here, the best we can do is an assumption.  If we guess $2,000,000 (Let's be cheap with this terminal.  It's only designed for an average of 40 loads per day.), a 25 year life, and a 18% interest rate, I get an annual ownership costs of $364,183.19. In Excel it's: 12 x (=PMT((0.18/12),(25*12),2000000).

I don't like using guesstimates.  Are you sure you want to "have fun" with this?

Anyway, if we make another assumption of a six day/week operation, while allowing for holidays, and 40 loads per 300 workdays, we get 12,000 loads per year.  Dividing the $364,183.19 annual ownership cost of the terminal by the 12,000 annual loads we get a Cedar Rapids terminal ownership cost of $30.35 per load.  That figue will go down if we can put more annual loads through the terminal, particularly westbound loads. 

This is one big SWAG guesstimate.  Anyone, please feel free to point out errors on my part.  I'm kind of rusty at this. 

Shall we continue?

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    April 2002
  • From: Northern Florida
  • 1,429 posts
Posted by SALfan on Sunday, March 29, 2015 8:34 PM

greyhounds

 

 
MP173
This will be fun.

 

I don't know how much "fun" this will be.  It looks like the work I did in days gone by - for pay.

I was trying to show the gross revenue per train mile at various levels of eastbound and westbound loadings.  It assumes $1.00/container mile eastbound and $0.75/container mile westbound.

This whole thing will be, at best, one big SWAG.  Determining the costs of specific rail movements remains very imprecise.  Since we do not have access to real data, we're going to have to make many assumptions that may or may not be valid.

Such as:  the cost of an IM terminal at Cedar Rapids.  In the real world I could get a projection.  Here, the best we can do is an assumption.  If we guess $2,000,000 (Let's be cheap with this terminal.  It's only designed for an average of 40 loads per day.), a 25 year life, and a 18% interest rate, I get an annual ownership costs of $364,183.19. In Excel it's: 12 x (=PMT((0.18/12),(25*12),2000000).

I don't like using guesstimates.  Are you sure you want to "have fun" with this?

Anyway, if we make another assumption of a six day/week operation, while allowing for holidays, and 40 loads per 300 workdays, we get 12,000 loads per year.  Dividing the $364,183.19 annual ownership cost of the terminal by the 12,000 annual loads we get a Cedar Rapids terminal ownership cost of $30.35 per load.  That figue will go down if we can put more annual loads through the terminal, particularly westbound loads. 

This is one big SWAG guesstimate.  Anyone, please feel free to point out errors on my part.  I'm kind of rusty at this. 

Shall we continue?

 

 

Please continue.  At least one of us (me) is interested in the various estimates, assumptions and projections that go into a decision like this, and the process an entity goes thru in making such a decision.  Even if your input numbers are SWAGs, an explanation of the process and the things that must be considered would be educational.  We aren't investing any real money, and there's no penalty for the numbers not being perfectly accurate, so why not?  You know more about the process than anyone who has spoken up, so please, instruct us.

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,369 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Monday, March 30, 2015 2:01 AM

Our price targets.

According to www.truckloadrate.com the minimum dry van truckload rate from Cedar Rapids to Tobyhanna, PA is $2.01/mile + $0.29/mile fuel surcharge.  It's 941 miles.  The total truckload cost to the customer is $2,164.30.

We're going for a 10% discount to switch the freight over to intermodal.  That discount will be $216.40/load.  So that puts our target door to door intermodal rate at $1,947.87

From Waterloo, IA (Tyson pork drayed via the Cedar Rapids ramp.) to Tobyhanna, PA the minimum truckload reefer rate shows as: 

955 miles at $2.19/mile = $2,091.45 line haul revenue.

955 miles at $0.33/mile = $ 328.35 Fuel Surcharge

955 miles at $2.52/mile = $2,419.80 Total over the road trucking charge

With the 10% discount our target rate is $2,177.82, a savings of $241.98 per load.  That's what we've got to work with here.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy